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Spoletta wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
welcome back walkrants.

Walkrants are still pants, for the same reason they were pants two days ago.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The time for Kronos gunline is now? No pesky T1 deepstrikers to bug us any more.

Alpha Legion Berserkers will still bug you anywhere they please. Forward Operatives send its regards. If needed, Warp Time'd too.

Why do you say so? It's worth every point you invest in it.
It ends up being a 170 point model (without abusing MRC), and has both the offensive and the defensive capabilities of that point cost. On top of that it has 2 powers and a synapse with extended range. It's well worth it's cost. Sure, the flyrant was better, but there's a reason why that got nerfed.

Because even with -1 to hit,12 wounds and a 4++ isn't enough to keep it alive the 3 turns it needs to meaningfully impact the game. Flyrants were good because when the DS you get 1 turn to deal will ALL of them.

babelfish wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
welcome back walkrants.

Walkrants are still pants, for the same reason they were pants two days ago.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The time for Kronos gunline is now? No pesky T1 deepstrikers to bug us any more.

Alpha Legion Berserkers will still bug you anywhere they please. Forward Operatives send its regards. If needed, Warp Time'd too.

Why do you say so? It's worth every point you invest in it.
It ends up being a 170 point model (without abusing MRC), and has both the offensive and the defensive capabilities of that point cost. On top of that it has 2 powers and a synapse with extended range. It's well worth it's cost. Sure, the flyrant was better, but there's a reason why that got nerfed.

Because even with -1 to hit,12 wounds and a 4++ isn't enough to keep it alive the 3 turns it needs to meaningfully impact the game. Flyrants were good because when the DS you get 1 turn to deal will ALL of them.

I would advise you to listen to https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/04/02/chapter-tactics-61-adepticon-and-custodes-and-flyrants-oh-my/ and hear from the Adepticon winner how he often starts with the Flyrants on the table.
DS was not what made them amazing. It helped but even without it you would have seen the same spam lists.

Also, you can't just deepstrike tons of flyrants anymore if the beta rule applies where 1/2 your power level also has to be on the table. Spore/Flyrant lists will die.

Still incredibly shocked MRC have no cost. wtf gw

Well...

You can deploy 3 mawlocks on the table, and 3 flyrants in reserve. Come turn 1 the 3 mawlocks goes into reserves.

Turn 2 3 mawlocks and 3 flyrants plop down.

 Niiai wrote:
Well...

You can deploy 3 mawlocks on the table, and 3 flyrants in reserve. Come turn 1 the 3 mawlocks goes into reserves.

Turn 2 3 mawlocks and 3 flyrants plop down.

If at the end of any battle round you have no units on the table you loose acording to the vast majority of missions.

If you want to pull all your mawlocs into reserves turn 1 then at the end of round 1 when you have nothing on the table the game is over. You want to bring spores to supplement? Good luck keeping them alive.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Well...

You can deploy 3 mawlocks on the table, and 3 flyrants in reserve. Come turn 1 the 3 mawlocks goes into reserves.

Turn 2 3 mawlocks and 3 flyrants plop down.

If at the end of any battle round you have no units on the table you loose acording to the vast majority of missions.

If you want to pull all your mawlocs into reserves turn 1 then at the end of round 1 when you have nothing on the table the game is over. You want to bring spores to supplement? Good luck keeping them alive.

Well if you bring 6 models chances are you are not spending all your points, Keep your snarky sarcasmn away from the internet and imagine something to foll the void. Like malanthropes and hive guards.

I’ve been running a brigade pretty much full time for my list, and as is usual with Tyranid brigades it’s got a bunch of stuff that doesn’t synergize that well but gets taken anyway for the extra CP like lictors, mucolid spores, etc. I’m thinking of switching to 2 battalions now with the changes and putting the points in more useful stuff. The spores aren’t really as necessary with turn 1 deepstriking being neutered, the lictors never accomplished much of note, and while biovores are great they’re not quite as amazing for CP fodder anymore.

 Niiai wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Well...

You can deploy 3 mawlocks on the table, and 3 flyrants in reserve. Come turn 1 the 3 mawlocks goes into reserves.

Turn 2 3 mawlocks and 3 flyrants plop down.

If at the end of any battle round you have no units on the table you loose acording to the vast majority of missions.

If you want to pull all your mawlocs into reserves turn 1 then at the end of round 1 when you have nothing on the table the game is over. You want to bring spores to supplement? Good luck keeping them alive.

Well if you bring 6 models chances are you are not spending all your points, Keep your snarky sarcasmn away from the internet and imagine something to foll the void. Like malanthropes and hive guards.

It's not sarcasm. A lot of the "problem" nid lists that have been showing up over the last 2 months have been replications of 7th ed. All spores and flyrants. Often 7 flyrants in a list. If you do 1 for 1 flyrant to mawloc all the way up until the points limit is reached and try to do what you suggest it's not going to work anymore.

How would you do marlock and flyrants 1 for 1 with the rule of 3 in place? .

 Lance845 wrote:

If you want to pull all your mawlocs into reserves turn 1 then at the end of round 1 when you have nothing on the table the game is over. You want to bring spores to supplement? Good luck keeping them alive.

Spores won't help with that as their Living Bomb rule states they don't count when determining if a player has any models left on the table (among the other things).

One thing that was pointed out over in the GSC thread was that you can bump a unit to the next PL bracket by adding a model or two more than their starting bracket (example was Neophytes at 11 strong having the same PL as a 20 strong unit). Things like Hive Guard can take one extra model and nearly double their PL rating for the purposes of the strategic reserve rule despite only marginally increasing their point cost. Gaunts are another possible area for filler since in PL games the brood size is increased in increments of 10, so a 15-strong unit has the same PL rating as a 20-strong unit and so forth.

Also if I may say so, with the Smite nerf now official Zoanthropes and Malceptors gained a bit more value for Smite efficiency. Each cast by a larger Zoanthrope brood basically gets two Smites for only one increase to the casting difficulty while the +1 to cast on Malceptors makes them better suited to casting after other psykers (and if nothing else can use Psychic Overload as a "dispersed" Smite).

How is a trio of Zoey units dropping in Spores and popping Psychic Barrage looking, now? It’s something I wanna do sometime

 lindsay40k wrote:
How is a trio of Zoey units dropping in Spores and popping Psychic Barrage looking, now? It’s something I wanna do sometime

Even worse than a few days ago, since you're looking at a zoned out turn 2 drop for the gimmick.

I think a unit of 4 Venomthropes might be worth it now. You get 9 PL for reserves, only pay 120 points and get a bubble to protect the stuff, which has to be on the table.
Also a Hive Crone might be more interesting now, since gun lines should show up more and you can reliably alpha strike with them.

if only the crones/harpies were FA and not flyer slot.

Yes that would be royal!

 Badablack wrote:
34 points was criminally cheap for a 4-wound infantry model that threw Hail Mary mortal wounds, generated free models, and could be taken in units of 1. 50 points feels much more even, and this is from someone who took 6 of the things.

Not that it matters but 36pts.

I found their wound characteristic almost entirely irrelevant, they never get targetted anyway.

The spore mines is definitely where the abuse is. At 50pts though you are essentially paying 14pts for spore mines for each biovore before you start. Why not just buy spore mines and deep strike them in? IF spore mines are that good it'd be the go to instead.

I was also running 6 and will be dropping to 3 to cover the points increase. Just feel it was an overhike, especially compared to things like dark reapers only getting a 7pt hike. Were biovores double the abusiveness of reapers?

Sneggy wrote:

The spore mines is definitely where the abuse is. At 50pts though you are essentially paying 14pts for spore mines for each biovore before you start. Why not just buy spore mines and deep strike them in? IF spore mines are that good it'd be the go to instead.

Spore Mines have the unfortunate aspect of needing to be 12'' away on the drop rather than 9'' with their version of deep strike, while the placement rules from a miss with a spore weapon are more generous. Plus, the Biovore is more cost efficient than buying a clutch of mines to start with since it only needs to fire 5 times to make back its value in mines (or the damage that quantity of mines could accomplish) while also contributing to boots on the ground and potentially minding a backfield objective.


I'm a bit in wait and see regarding the cost hike. On one hand it does seem slightly punitive but they are closer to Impaler Cannon Hive Guard in cost now which feels fairly right since both fire indirectly and both lean towards anti-armor. Not many armies have guns that do all of their damage via mortal wounds so it still fits in a fairly unique niche.

Looks like I’m going for mawloc strat with three 3 mawlocs where they say on the board turn 1 and the. Burrow and come in T:2 with 3 flyrants. For my backfield I’ll have my trusty 6 hive guard(they can shoot 3 times now if I’m not mistaken?), but I’ll add a rupture cannon tyrannofex. I’ll see if I can fill a brigade with pyrovores and meiotic spores. I don’t think we have what it takes against the top armies with this nerf, but I’ll give it a try.

 killerpenguin wrote:
Looks like I’m going for mawloc strat with three 3 mawlocs where they say on the board turn 1 and the. Burrow and come in T:2 with 3 flyrants. For my backfield I’ll have my trusty 6 hive guard(they can shoot 3 times now if I’m not mistaken?), but I’ll add a rupture cannon tyrannofex. I’ll see if I can fill a brigade with pyrovores and meiotic spores. I don’t think we have what it takes against the top armies with this nerf, but I’ll give it a try.

How can your hive guard shoot three times?

Sneggy wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:
Looks like I’m going for mawloc strat with three 3 mawlocs where they say on the board turn 1 and the. Burrow and come in T:2 with 3 flyrants. For my backfield I’ll have my trusty 6 hive guard(they can shoot 3 times now if I’m not mistaken?), but I’ll add a rupture cannon tyrannofex. I’ll see if I can fill a brigade with pyrovores and meiotic spores. I don’t think we have what it takes against the top armies with this nerf, but I’ll give it a try.

How can your hive guard shoot three times?

Something about using stratagems twice?

Not entirely sure, i couldnt find it in the new faq. I was hoping someone would enighten me.

That's not a thing.

 killerpenguin wrote:
Looks like I’m going for mawloc strat with three 3 mawlocs where they say on the board turn 1 and the. Burrow and come in T:2 with 3 flyrants. For my backfield I’ll have my trusty 6 hive guard(they can shoot 3 times now if I’m not mistaken?), but I’ll add a rupture cannon tyrannofex. I’ll see if I can fill a brigade with pyrovores and meiotic spores. I don’t think we have what it takes against the top armies with this nerf, but I’ll give it a try.

Backed by Hormies and GS advancing with swarmlord and kraken strats turn 1 for charges. I think that could be set up for a good for turn 2 follow up with Mawlocs and Tyrants coming in.

Take Swarmlord. Also take 3 units of Spore Mines maxed at 9 each. Place those on board front line and use metabolic overdrive and Swarmload Hive Commander to slingshot in a wave of Mortal wounds. With Metabolic overdrive and Swarm commander you are looking at 18" (+3' explosion range) so you have a fairly effective way to get a lot of mortal wounds across the board very quickly. Might be a neat trick for a follow up or maybe initiate if you aren't deployed 24" away.

 killerpenguin wrote:

Sneggy wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:
Looks like I’m going for mawloc strat with three 3 mawlocs where they say on the board turn 1 and the. Burrow and come in T:2 with 3 flyrants. For my backfield I’ll have my trusty 6 hive guard(they can shoot 3 times now if I’m not mistaken?), but I’ll add a rupture cannon tyrannofex. I’ll see if I can fill a brigade with pyrovores and meiotic spores. I don’t think we have what it takes against the top armies with this nerf, but I’ll give it a try.

How can your hive guard shoot three times?

Something about using stratagems twice?

Not entirely sure, i couldnt find it in the new faq. I was hoping someone would enighten me.

Ok, I see how you got confused. The FAQ says that "before the game" is not an actual phase, so the once per phase limit on stratagems doesn't apply to stratagems that are used before the game. Most people already played this way, because it was a reasonable reading of the rules, and the FAQ was simply GW making it clear that they were aware of and agreed with it.

For us, this ruling mainly applies to the Jorgmundr stratagem that lets you spend CP to put non-troops infantry units in Trygon/Mawloc/Ravener tunnels (vs the normal infantry troops only in Trygon/Mawloc tunnels that all Hive Fleets can do). There is another FAQ ruling that makes it clear that more than one unit can use the same tunnel. The end result is we go from "the vast majority of Tyranid players agree that the most reasonable interpretation of the rules permits a Jorgmundr tunneling unit to bring in any number of infantry units with its tunnel, at the cost of 1 CP per unit", to "the rules directly say that a Jorgmundr tunneling unit can bring in any number of infantry units with its tunnel". It is nice to have this clarified, but it isn't going to impact much, because everybody already played assuming that they could do this.

This ruling does not apply to Hive Guard shooting, as the stratagem that lets them shoot twice is used at the end of the shooting phase. It could be used as a way to deliver Hive Guard - shock cannon Hive Guard getting dropped off by Raveners and then shooting twice is a viable tactic that helps avoid problems caused by the short range of the shock cannon - but there is no way to use it to get them to shoot three times.

pinecone77 wrote:
Well...too soon to tell, but we might just be the best Beta strikers in the game. Jormangandr might become the new contender for "best" Hive Fleet. I already build around one Brigade, so most of this seems to not hit me. Did I see that "Brotherhood of Psychers" ignores the Smite nurf...I need to check how my beloved Zoeies are written up.....

You are correct.

They are no longer brotherhood of the psykers, though.

This DS nerf is really, really big for us. No longer do I think melee will be nearly as effective as ranged.

Arkengate wrote:
They are no longer brotherhood of the psykers, though.

This DS nerf is really, really big for us. No longer do I think melee will be nearly as effective as ranged.

Which is imho good, since we are playing a Sci-Fi game!

 Astmeister wrote:

Arkengate wrote:
They are no longer brotherhood of the psykers, though.

This DS nerf is really, really big for us. No longer do I think melee will be nearly as effective as ranged.

Which is imho good, since we are playing a Sci-Fi game!

I think it is more science fantasy. And you rarely see Nids killing stuff with shooting in the background. Tyranids are beasts and the average Tyranid is not very intelligent so shooting is not as easy for them which is presented in the game by them having low BS mostly short range. And armor is also very much advanced in 40k. I find it very boring to play a game where both players just shoot at each other and rarely move. I also just like to see SM or IG try to shoot down all the Nids coming towards them.

Has anyone tried 60 genestealer List using the Kraken stratagem on 20 and a Swarmlord on the another 20 ? this should get them in to melee in turn 1. Maybe using dakkafexe to shoot the screens. I want to make melee work. and by doing this you would but a lot of pressure on you opponent. And in turn 2 you drop your 3 Flyrants charge. you would of cause need good shooting as well so hive guard exocrine and a tyranofex maybe.

 Astmeister wrote:

Arkengate wrote:
They are no longer brotherhood of the psykers, though.

This DS nerf is really, really big for us. No longer do I think melee will be nearly as effective as ranged.

Which is imho good, since we are playing a Sci-Fi game!

Dune, Star Wars, Predator, Terminator and Aliens. Oh yeah, and 40K. There are plenty of sci-fi with melee components.

I did not say that there should not be melee at all in 40k.
But as you say for yourself: the nids should be overrunning the enemy en masse. But it is not much fun when your whole army gets assaulted turn 1 and you cannot do anything against it.
Gunlines are a completely different story and I think they already tried to kill them by introducing Maelstrom. But that did not work yet.

 Astmeister wrote:
I did not say that there should not be melee at all in 40k.
But as you say for yourself: the nids should be overrunning the enemy en masse. But it is not much fun when your whole army gets assaulted turn 1 and you cannot do anything against it.
Gunlines are a completely different story and I think they already tried to kill them by introducing Maelstrom. But that did not work yet.

funny. My IG were able to do something with T1 assaults. There's this little(and seemingly little known) concept called "screen".