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The bit about converting and that may be someone reading my post....

What I said was that since I paint AND convert my armies, why shouldn't I demand you suffer negative modifiers why playing against me? After all, I have clearly put more effort into my army, not to mention money (my Wyvern conversion cost me, not including paints and glue....£30 for the High Elf Dragon, £25 for the Wyvern, £12 for the Orc Warboss, £2 for model string, £3 for basing, making it £72, when I could simply have bought the Wyvern).

Does this it should hit automatically, with all hits counting as sixes for the Poison? No. Of course not. I simply enjoy that aspect of the hobby more than others, and like to have fairly unique models.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Does this it should hit automatically, with all hits counting as sixes for the Poison? No. Of course not. I simply enjoy that aspect of the hobby more than others, and like to have fairly unique models.

I agree with you... I think. I'm having a hard time concentrating at the moment because the last page was like some sort of bizzaro Dakka where everyone disengaged their brains...

But yeah, you hit the nail on the head with:

"No. Of course not. I simply enjoy that aspect of the hobby more than others."

Just like I enjoy building terrain more than others. Should my models get a better cover save in my terrain 'cause I love that aspect more? Hell no!!!

BYE

yeah...
christ some ones pushed HBMCs buttons!!!

Sorry but I agree with the snobs. I want to play painted armys not the armys presented by neurotic compulsive hoarders of models...
I don't particularly like painting, I'm a average painter at best and sometimes I feel like it's a real drag, but I love the results.

I love putting my painted army down and feel proud that I created it.
It's a chore but sometimes chores are worth doing.

haha
PaniC...

I'd *prefer* to play against a painted army. The game just looks better. But I can't say I'm all that bugged by playing a Tinboy.

It's his business whether he paints or not. And it is up to the individual LGS or GW whether or not he can play with unpainted models.

Some are 'hardline' and have an outright 'three colours and base minimum' others have a paint as you go. And some allow anything.

Now, I would never game against someone with incomplete models unless they had literally just bought them, or was using empty bases of appropriate size to test a unit before buying it.

But the rules are for the GAME, not the HOBBY.

I am a reluctant painter at best, yet most of my active armies are fully painted, with varying degrees of ability showing. But my friend Paul? He is pretty much Golden Daemon standard. He does lighting effects, NMM etc. Trouble is, he is a perfectionist. So whilst I am happy to game with models not very well painted, he will use unpainted stuff next to his beautifully painted ones, and sometimes, he just plays Nekkid Models. Why should he be penalised because of his high standards?

Panic wrote:christ some ones pushed HBMCs buttons!!!

Yeah I think this thread actually broke my mind. How we went from me saying "People get different things out of this hobby" to others saying "How dare you demand converted models!" I will never, ever understand.

Panic wrote:I don't particularly like painting, I'm a average painter at best and sometimes

Now I hate you even more. Average painting? I'd kill for you skills.



BYE

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It's his business whether he paints or not. And it is up to the individual LGS or GW whether or not he can play with unpainted models.

And if a store says 'No, must be painted', then, y'know, that's fine - their store, their rules. No issue.

But don't... well... again, you said it best:

"But the rules are for the GAME, not the HOBBY."



BYE

I think this thread has de-evolved into two arguments:

*Should models that are not painted be given a disadvantage.

*Should models that are not painted be allowed to be used.

I think the big thing is that if a gaming store, group, friends set a standard, then you as a player have to respect that standard. I think the trouble people get into is when people try to begin setting standards 'in the middle' because that is when they begin to say 'I have more of a right to this hobby than you do because you are below me.'

I have learned more from playing against Metagame proxiers than any other person. Who am I to say that proxies are wrong? I still like to paint my army and enjoy meeting other painters, but for that, I tend to find places and times where the rule of the road is '3 colors and based'.

I know a place that is big into 3 colors and based and doesn't care about WYSIWYG and allow proxies. They explicitly abandon WYSIWYG when the GWHQ stopped allowing us to pick metal bitz. GW cut off the only way they felt they could reasonably WYSIWYG their figures. So they are now a 'proxy OK' store.

They will require painting but not WYSIWYG where you personally said you require WYSIWYG but not painting.

Being told 'you are not welcome here' is a hard thing so I make sure my armies are 100% painted, WYSIWYG and games workshop models to 70%. I can play anywhere and everywhere without worry. And that is a choice I make because I enjoy the gaming aspect.

People do it all the time, they classify one aspect of the hobby more important and then group up with people who agree with them. The only way IMHO to be consistent is 'all' or 'nothing.

And thats the thing. It is down the community of players, wherever they play, to set the standard, NOT the rulebook.

Someone gave a good example of a Blood Bowl League. That was really well thought out, as it prevents certain bonuses. However, it could only really work for a game of that scale. Anyone, not matter how they might loathe painting, can manage to 3 Colour and Base 12 to 15 models. Dead easy.

But what if it's Fantasy, and they like playing Gobbos? Here, they are at a disadvantage to someone who likes to play Chaos with lots of small, expensive units, as not only will the Chaos army be a lot smaller, but it's also easier to paint (least, in my experience)

yeah,
Sorry HBMC ~ I always hated the kid at school who would say his art sucked just to get praise...
But that wasn't my objective when i said my painting was average, i'm happy with my skill level, I'm pointing out that my painting isn't GD quality.

but for the orignal posters question/proposition i'd like to make what i said clear.

I agree with the snobs and i would love to only play painted armys.
But I don't think you should get a bonus when playing unpainted.
I play unpainted armys every now and then and hell I'd be embarrased to claim an advantage.

~I beat you because your army wasn't painted~, how hollow would that victory be?

<gay moment> but there is something beautiful about two painted armys facing each other... </gay moment>

PaniC...

Panic wrote:But that wasn't my objective when i said my painting was average, i'm happy with my skill level, I'm pointing out that my painting isn't GD quality.

Oh I know, I just look at your army and compare it to the Death Guard army that I'm doing and just go "I wish I could do that!!!".

Panic wrote:<gay moment> but there is something beautiful about two painted armys facing each other... </gay moment>

Yeah this is now officially the weirdest Dakka thread I've ever participated in...

BYE

This did kind of seem like it was going to turn into a flame war for a second, which was never my intent when I started the thread. Nor was it my intent to look down upon anyone who doesnt paint or doesnt want to paint. I would just like it if more people took the time to paint their stuff, it seems like these days alot of people seem to be saying "Well no one else paints why should I"

Thats a blanket statement not meant to offend anyone but it does affect how alot of new people look at the game when people have that attitude. And to tell you the truth if I had seen a bunch of people playing with unpainted stuff when I first started looking into playing I probably would have been like "Oh well thats kind of lame"

Truth is, and I really dont think this is very debatable, that 2 painted armies look better on the table than 2 un painted armies. For me and alot of people who take alot of time to paint their armies it makes the games more fun as well.

This is why I proposed a small rules change. I didnt say painted models should auto hit or anything outlandish. I said -1 cover save or something like that, big enough to make people sit and think well instead of doing whatever Im going to sit and paint for an hour, yet small enough to not really make a huge difference on the game.

Also as Ive said the whole time I dont think that most people would have a problem not using the rule if you explained to them well I just dont paint or I am still working on this army and would like it all to be GD standard but still would like to play. Sure youll get that asspipe or 2 who wont but those are the same guys who are sitting there with their 9 oblit 4 heavy support IW army(in the old dex of course) in a friendly game.

As for the comment "But the rules are for the GAME, not the HOBBY." I agree but the RULEBOOK does have a significant hobby and painting section in it so they are intertwined.

Also I really dont have a problem with you not painting HMBC thats fine and if I saw you I would play your unpainted army( and probably give you gak about it the whole time lol), but you at least participate in other aspects of the hobby, alot of people don't.
Alot of people want to make the previously mentioned IW army crush as many people as possible and care nothing for the integrity of the game or the hobby they give no second thought to the hours of time other people spend creating an environment for them to play. This isnt magic the gathering thats why so much time is spent by GW and hobby shops across the world to build terrain, run fun senarios, run campaigns, and if the only part of the hobby people want to participate in is the utter destruction of every army standing before them, then I think that shows disrespect to the aforementioned hobbystores, people and GW itself.

amenzer wrote:... This isnt magic the gathering...

yeah,
In MTG people make fluffy decks and killer decks... can't rubbish a whole game system with one short sweeping comment.
I have a angel deck, bird deck etc... i also have a mono black deck i call the theif deck because it steals your game and it doesn't let you play...

to put the thread back on track, it's also worth mentioning that there are also people would like to paint but are unable to paint due to lack of dexterity (or in a extreme case a loss of a limb)... they may love the hobby and I'd be disgusted if anyone penalised them.

PaniC...

True Panic but my reference was more to the fact that MTG isnt so much a hobby as a game system. When I played magic I rarely used fluffy decks, but I'll routinely play fluffy scenarios in 40k the system lends itself to fluffyness more than MTG.

Panic wrote:
to put the thread back on track, it's also worth mentioning that there are also people would like to paint but are unable to paint due to lack of dexterity (or in a extreme case a loss of a limb)... they may love the hobby and I'd be disgusted if anyone penalised them.

PaniC...

I would probably paint their army for them if that was the case. That is why we would do 'dip days'. It taught people VERY SIMPLE techniques they could do on their own and would allow some people to get their models painted. 3 colors and based is very very very quick to do.

I have done a dipped army, very quick, very easy, only really requires one limb, and it looks good. also there are some decent contraptions that will hold models for you. No one is saying it has to be perfect. I would also help anyone with only 1 arm.

I don't care who paints the stuff I just want to see painted stuff on the table.

It is a key element of enjoying tabletop wargames.

Bare metal armies have always been frowned upon since figure gaming started.

In many leagues, there is a penalty for non-painted units, and incomplete models.

I'd suggest this:
-1T for models that are not fully-assembled
+1 Ld (once per game) for units that are fully-painted

Unassembled models are a real problem, because it's hard to know what you're fighting.

Fully-painted deserves a cookie, because it's tough to finish stuff.

Eh, either way GW will not be listening to our ideas on how the game works, but maybe it could make for good house rules...

Corey85 wrote:Eh, either way GW will not be listening to our ideas on how the game works, but maybe it could make for good house rules...

True.

Slightly OT, but I would love to see someone do a well-painted Marine chapter in Plastic Grey with Bare Pewter NMM detailing. All the other stuff (highlights, eyes, guns) should be painted, but the predominant look should be that of a non-painted army.

Although the thread has quieted down quite a bit in the second page, but this is what i think about the subject after reading most of the posts:

It seems the predominant argument for having all painted models is that it looks much better. and is generally more fun to play because of the greater commitment you have invested in your models.

There are a couple a reason why people do not paint, from what i can gather, are these.

1) i dont have enough time (i work, go to school, i volunteer, etc etc)
I dont really believe this, at least not all the time. Though it may be true that, perhaps during a month or two of your life
, you will really have a claim as to not having the time to paint. But when you look at it in depth there are 24 hours in day. Its reccommended that you sleep during 7 of them, and you probably work during another 8. perhaps you have a part time job that takes up another 4. putting in an hour for driving time each day that still leaves you with 4 hours left in your day. another hour for eating leaves you with 3. even at only three hours a day during the week you can paint for 30 minutes while your watching the news your a tv show. i know alot of people, mytself included, that paint while watching tv (it isnt the fastest, but it does work) this 30 minutes a day will add up and eventually you will have a playable painted army. (p.s. i did not even include the 20+ hours you should have on the weekends/your days off)
Second point under this is a couple of questions. Do you have time to Play the Game? Do you have time to Build the Models? Do you have time to go out and buy more models? If you hanswered as to ANY of these questions then you have time to paint, you just are not using it. Try to not buy that extra squad until next week and use the time that it would have taken you to build it and paint up some stuff.

2) i am not good at it
While it is true that some people are gifted with the natural talent to paint amazing models, it is not a prerequisite. Painting is a skill. Skills are learned with practice. When i first started painting i couled even paint the trim on my bezerkers withough going onto the armor. They were solid black basecoated, gold trim, and red eyes, and maybe a few other details, but pretty much sucked. now i am a decent painter, i do tend to be kinda slow in painting, but it does get done. Flgs should be a great support for new painters. They can teach you some basic techniques that will get your stuff done fast and still look good. most people will not be good at stuff the first time they try something (can you pick up a bball and play in the nba, a bat and play in the mlb, or pick a bunch of stuff out of your fridge and make a gourmet meal) no all things take practice, but with practice you will become better than you ever though possible. don't be discouraged. With the new foundation paints and washes its the easiest its ever been to paint!

3) I dont like to paint
I cna't remember who it was but they said they had 80,000 points of unpainted models. Thats alot of time and money spent on all that stuff. For the cost of 1 less titan he probably could have had someone paint the models for him. I know of many services that do it for only 3-4 dollars for a table top quality miniature. this isn't alot. Now obviously not everyone has that kind of money to use, but i would think that a quite a few do. Warhammer is not a cheap hobby, so anyone who is playing should have at least some disposable income.
For those that don't have the money to get thier models painted for them all at once could definately do it in increments. a sqaud here and a squad there could be substituted instead of buying more miniatures. Also asking people around your flgs to help you paint is an option. even if you only get 2 people to help you once a week, you still reduce the painting time and effort by 66%!

4) it is not part of the game
I again would like to ask these people a simple question. Is modelling part of the game? Would you get mad if i came to a tournament with little cut outs of paper that merely said "space marine" or "rhino"? of course you would. If i came to play a game and didn't write out a list, but just put down whatever i wanted would you like it? no. There are many parts of the game(modelling being the most similiar to painting), but the fact is that even if you don't like building models, or writing lists, or reading the rules you still have to. so why is painting any different?


If I missed anything i am sorry and will try to fix it as soon as possible.

It seems like an "favorite excuses why I don't paint" poll is in order...

.

tylermenz wrote:
4) it is not part of the game
I again would like to ask these people a simple question. Is modelling part of the game? Would you get mad if i came to a tournament with little cut outs of paper that merely said "space marine" or "rhino"? of course you would. If i came to play a game and didn't write out a list, but just put down whatever i wanted would you like it? no. There are many parts of the game(modelling being the most similiar to painting), but the fact is that even if you don't like building models, or writing lists, or reading the rules you still have to. so why is painting any different?


If I missed anything i am sorry and will try to fix it as soon as possible.

Good post -- I only repeated what I think is the most important part.

Painted models are nice, but to penalize for unpainted is unfair. As many have stated time and other reasons can limit painting.

Give bonuses to painted armies, but nothing OTT. In our BB league, if your team is fully painted you get +1 fan factor and if your the best painted +1 Fame. Nothing outlandish, and a bonus that can be gained or lost throughout a season.

In open gaming the only penalty is not to play. And dont whine about driving a long distance, my drive is over an hour and a half. But if I want a game, I dont care what I play against as long as its roughly WYSIWYG.

Darkness wrote:Painted models are nice, but to penalize for unpainted is unfair. As many have stated time and other reasons can limit painting.

But GW has a standard. Paint your models or get your figures off the fudgin table. That is a pretty big penalty.

You can't play in any GW store or GW event without painted models. As fun as FLGS is, it really is a goal of many people to play at least one tournament or go to gamesday or something. If they made rules that let those unpainted models play in official games with a penalty, It would ruin the experience for those who worked hard to make the minimal effort to respect their opponents and field painted models at official events.

tylermenz wrote:

1) i dont have enough time (i work, go to school, i volunteer, etc etc)
I dont really believe this, at least not all the time. Though it may be true that, perhaps during a month or two of your life
, you will really have a claim as to not having the time to paint. But when you look at it in depth there are 24 hours in day. Its reccommended that you sleep during 7 of them, and you probably work during another 8. perhaps you have a part time job that takes up another 4. putting in an hour for driving time each day that still leaves you with 4 hours left in your day. another hour for eating leaves you with 3. even at only three hours a day during the week you can paint for 30 minutes while your watching the news your a tv show. i know alot of people, mytself included, that paint while watching tv (it isnt the fastest, but it does work) this 30 minutes a day will add up and eventually you will have a playable painted army. (p.s. i did not even include the 20+ hours you should have on the weekends/your days off)
Second point under this is a couple of questions. Do you have time to Play the Game? Do you have time to Build the Models? Do you have time to go out and buy more models? If you hanswered as to ANY of these questions then you have time to paint, you just are not using it. Try to not buy that extra squad until next week and use the time that it would have taken you to build it and paint up some stuff.

Ok Mr. Know-it-All. Let me break it down to you. The above is what I posted, and since you seem to know exactly how my life is run let me clue you in.
I have a full time job. I leave for work at 6am and get home at 8pm. 2 days a week I have EMT class for 4 hours at night and every Saturday im doing hands on all day. (Yes all day)

When I volunteer at the station, since you have no clue as to how the days work, I pull a 24 hour shift. Yes thats 24 real hours in a day. I go from 8am to 8am the next day. True after 5pm its "your time" but "your time" really isnt. You use it to get a quick meal in, maybe watch a movie, but half the time its cut short from a Med/fire call or your busy from activities that didnt get finished during the day. (Like Hydrant testing or Hose Testing)

So for you to sit there and say "I dont buy it." well guess what. Their are honest working men and women that can hardly find time to do anything fun for themselfs. I have 2 painted armies that ive worked on for years in what little time that I have. 9 times out of 10 I only will play in tournaments because I have to MAKE TIME to play period. Also I havent picked up any models in person for years cause I order online. Also my GF loves to paint so she helps out at times.

Also if someone doesnt like to paint why the hell should they pay for someone to paint the models for them for 4$ a model? Thats just plain insane. Thats as dumb as paying someone to level your character on an online game.

Bottom line, Why should someone be penalized for not likeing the same aspect of the game you do because YOU are not happy? Simple answer! Dont like it DONT PLAY!

Gooday!

As much as I advocate painted miniatures on the table, I'd be against a penalty for unpainted figures. It's too much of a slippery slope around what constitutes unpainted vs partially painted vs. painting in progress vs. painted. I'd rather see more black and white rules, such as those use at GW stores or the GT (e.g., minimum 3 colors, based, etc), where people can choose to attend/play or not. Otherwise, at your local store, if the policy is play what you have, then play what you have ... there shouldn't be any additional penalty to it.

By the way, I paint because I enjoy it ... but I also have a full time job and a pair of 5-year olds to mind. The spare time I do have, has a fairly high opportunity cost. I can certainly see why others don't want to spend their free time doing it.

Ifurita wrote:As much as I advocate painted miniatures on the table, I'd be against a penalty for unpainted figures. It's too much of a slippery slope around what constitutes unpainted vs partially painted vs. painting in progress vs. painted. I'd rather see more black and white rules, such as those use at GW stores or the GT (e.g., minimum 3 colors, based, etc), where people can choose to attend/play or not. Otherwise, at your local store, if the policy is play what you have, then play what you have ... there shouldn't be any additional penalty to it.

By the way, I paint because I enjoy it ... but I also have a full time job and a pair of 5-year olds to mind. The spare time I do have, has a fairly high opportunity cost. I can certainly see why others don't want to spend their free time doing it.

Well said

jp400 wrote:Ok Mr. Know-it-All. Let me break it down to you. The above is what I posted, and since you seem to know exactly how my life is run let me clue you in.
I have a full time job. I leave for work at 6am and get home at 8pm. 2 days a week I have EMT class for 4 hours at night and every Saturday im doing hands on all day. (Yes all day)

Everyone is busy. We all have families and jobs and responsibilities. And your life is no more important than anyone else. "I am saving lives therefor I have the right not to paint my models." Come on. Anyone on the Internet can lie and make stuff up. Even if true, In a hobby that takes 2 hours a game, you can clearly sacrifice playing time to paint whether you 'like to do it or not'. And since *ANYONE* is capable of painting tabletop quality in minimal time, no one has an excuse.

If you don't like to paint so you have the right not to paint, then your opponents have the right not to model because it is expensive and time consuming. Either all aspects of the hobby are important or none of them are. You can't demand WYSIWYG and not painting. You can't demand painting and allow Proxies. It is all or nothing.

Claiming the aspect of the hobby you enjoy is more important than other aspects makes you a hypocrite. Anyone who refuses to paint but demands wysiwyg and acts like modeling is more important and valuable than any other aspect of the hobby is a snob.