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I like that warriors are boosted to S and T 5, like I asked for in a thread maybe a year or so ago. I am very upset that genestealers are not only being moved to elites but are also being nerfed to WS and I5. Genestealers were always unbelievably fast walking blenders that mulched nearly anything they got their claws on, even characters. Another iconic(to me, at least) Tyranid characteristic gone. These guys used to be the best hand to hand army you could get. Now, they are glorified berserkers with much worse armor and nerf-rending. And Lictors still suck.

GW giveth, GW taketh away.


EDIT: May I request anyone that has the pdf to pm it to me? I'd like to get a full read through.

Cripes, can someone just post it on 4chan or piratebay already?

Warriors are T5? Is this the new 'solution' to all multi wound models?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Cripes, can someone just post it on 4chan or piratebay already?

Someone already said how to get it in this thread.

Okay, I'm still getting through the codex. I kinda think it's real, but (obviously) very rough. This seems to be a much earlier document than some of the others that have leaked. So I dunno that it means much. Still, as a longtime horde-style player, here's some things that jump out at me:

1) Spinegaunts get an extra attack in CC. This is big. Scythegaunts were the top performing Gaunt build under 3rd edition rules...this keeps the gun option and restores the extra attack. Nice.

2) Tougher and cheaper Warriors, great. Warriors are the key to fixing hordes. This one is a real positive.

3) Extended Carapace...ugh. This needs to be an improved save rather than some wacky AP modifier. Fearless units need armor saves unless they're complete Cuisinarts in CC. Gaunts will never be that, so they need a better save to let them work as tarpits again. Saves vs. shooting, as this new EC seems intended to address, aren't really a major issue in 5th thanks to plentiful cover saves. This one is a real puzzler to me. I have no idea what the designer's thinking on this one.

4) Lictors...still underwhelming since 1998. Genestealers should still be okay, although I'm not sure why they're spending time tweaking them. I think they're just about right as is.

I'll probably have more thoughts later.

I really doubt it's real. GW have gotten good at playing tight mouthed larry right now, and I've not heard much in the way of a new Nid book being worked on.

Very doubtful about this.

My first reaction was "oh god no get ready to take the big GW weiner," but there is some stuff to like here.
Would it really be that big of a problem for Stealers to lose 1 point of WS and I to gain an attack? They would still go before almost everyone else, still hit on 3's, and the extra attack just serves to give more chances to rend. At the same cost as now, I'd take that.
Overall it seems like this could make things more balanced across the codex (except for the Lictor. Poor, poor, useless lictor. RIP). And it could get nids back to actually being a swarm/assault army, instead of a MC SAFH.
But that's a mighty big if. YMMV

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I really doubt it's real. GW have gotten good at playing tight mouthed larry right now, and I've not heard much in the way of a new Nid book being worked on.

I agree with your first point, and disagree with your second. There's been a decent amount of speculation on Warseer about Tyranids being the possible mystery codex, and a certain someone there posted a teasing message in another forum about dusting off his Tyranids in 2010.

Mind you, this document could be fake. But I do think Tyranids are on the way.

Scout wrote:Overall it seems like this could make things more balanced across the codex (except for the Lictor. Poor, poor, useless lictor. RIP).

I'm not going to freak out about the Lictor until a new codex is in my hand.

However, if said codex is in my hand and the Lictor *still* looks something like this, I'll be happy to organize an event at which Tyranid players can assemble, BURY their Lictor models and officially give up on the unit for all time. Amen. LOL.

Ozymandias wrote:Well it is a playtest codex so it is very, very likely that things will change. I see this like the Tau Empires codex, a quickie that can get out the door with minor changes and not a whole lot (or any) new models.

Probably they/GW will release this with the new Space Hulk system... which leads me to believe there is also something waiting in the wings for some lucky SM codex... Blood Angels perphaps? Hee!

G

If they're doing the original "Blood Angels vs Genestealers" plotline for Space Hulk, then you could conceivable get a BA Codex this year.

Like this Tyranids Codex would be (and Tau Empire before it), it would be a quick rush-job with just a few minor changes, nothing too dramatic, and a couple of new models. BA's would be the easiest Marine Chapter to do as they're the least unique of the sub-dex Chapters.

Would annoy the Space Wolf players though!

ShumaGorath wrote:

Another thing to consider is you know GW won't publish a new codex without army-altering special characters. You know Old One-Eye is coming back. Probably to allow Carnifexes to count as scoring or something.

I'm glad I surf dakka. The stupid anti GW rants are a big draw.



I seriously doubt this is at all real.

Easy there tiger. I think you're starting to see rants where there aren't any. Just pointing out that even if this playtest codex is legit, it is incomplete b/c the current trend is to include special characters, and there is precedence for a Tyranid special character.

If it'll make you feel more at home, I'll throw in some whiny comments about never playing X army again and I'll call you a stoopid poopy head.

On topic: Interesting that there's an option for Tank Hunter on the Carnifex.

ubermosher wrote:If it'll make you feel more at home, I'll throw in some whiny comments about never playing X army again and I'll call you a stoopid poopy head.

Nah if you want to annoy Shummy just tell him that GW writes their rules with a view to boosting model sales. He hates it when people say that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ubermosher wrote:If it'll make you feel more at home, I'll throw in some whiny comments about never playing X army again and I'll call you a stoopid poopy head.

Nah if you want to annoy Shummy just tell him that GW writes their rules with a view to boosting model sales. He hates it when people say that.

Only when they haven't actually thought it out at all. Which is in general what seems to happen. Children and manchildren with little economic and business training ranting about power imbalances being based off of a non sensical business model when there are much easier answers which don't require evil GW execs smoking cigars and laughing in their yaghts. The biggest one being that its a non competitive hobby game with a focus on casual non competitive play and GW writes its codexes and rules and FAQs accordingly. They have tournaments and hold events because its reletively free advertisement and "completes" the hobby. They're just idiots (though even then they aren't that bad at what they do).

I think I just hate unsubstantiated reactionary rhetoric in everything. I don't even like it when people throw out me too comments that I agree with. I want substance in what I read, not baseless opinion.

Easy there tiger. I think you're starting to see rants where there aren't any. Just pointing out that even if this playtest codex is legit, it is incomplete b/c the current trend is to include special characters, and there is precedence for a Tyranid special character.

GW is on record as saying that the tyranids as a race should have no special characters, and that for them to exist flies in the face of everything that makes the army special. It's specifically why they were removed from the current nid codex. I sincerely doubt that they will add them in. There is precedence, but there's precedence for squats too. When a GW exec comes out and states something as cut and dry as their reasoning behind tyranid SC removal I think that sort of becomes the end of the story.

I'm just fine with Stealers losing a point off of WS, a 6 doesn't get you much over a 5 anyway. Against most units out side of Guard and Tau you will still hit on a 3, and they will still hit on a 4, and the Stealer is cheaper because of it.

The Spike Rifle returning is good. Very good.

Except 6 still giving you 3+ to hit over all the models and characters that either have I and ws5 already or get it through furious charge these days. It was perhaps less meaningful in 3rd and 4th, but these days it actually has uses. Which is why they are losing it.

So everyone has Godzilla and Stealershock armies. Time to swing that pendulum, and swing it hard.

Most characters seem to have WS 6 or better now though. All chaos, marine, daemon, tyranid, eldar, and dark eldar characters have at least a 6 WS excluding oddities like the DA codex. It's really only a big issue when facing off against other shock assault troops from high WS armies, even then it only happens in a few instances.

I'm not a big fan of the change but I don't think its going to effect much. Your stealers shouldn't be in base contact with daemonettes and they shouldn't get charged by berserkers. It's just poor generalship. Cheaper stealers are almost a must now that they are no longer the third edition deathshock ultratroops of yesteryear.

more news from warseer
not saying its credible but a december 2009 release doesnt seem out of the question and brimstone has hinted at a plastic trygon being the next "superheavy"
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188947

They would still need new models for other things if they do not add new units maybe plastic gargoyles finally?

I have read though it a few times, taken a few deep breaths and spent the time to consider what Games Workshop are thinking and take an optimistic look upon things. I don't like it.

That said, most of the problems are with the numbers. This is too expensive, or that is under-powered. These things can be easily fixed, so I suspect the worst of it will be sorted out before the release. I do not have high expectations for the release, but I think it can be adequate.

Its still too far away to discuss models although hopefully some will finally find their way into the plastic range.

Starting points seem to be undercosted while biomorphs seem over, which means you have to take large broods, which i think is the intention.

As above, I'm generally OK with this, but I'm surprised GW wouldn't take "Special Characters" as exemplars of particular Hive Fleets. Perhaps, Old One Eye is a HQ Carnifex, that can only be taken if you have at least 2 other Carnifexes.

I think that Brood-based upgrades are the way to go, and the new Instinctive Behavior is simple and very playable.

Model-wise I'm hoping to see plastic Gargoyles and plastic Hive Tyrants (with wings). If GW does those two things, and recuts Warriors with Wings, Nid players should be ecstatic!

Other than those of us who already own 50 Warriors and 6 Hive Tyrants... *grumble grumble grumble*

Plastic Gargoyles would be hot though.

Because if there's anything you can have too much of, it's Tyranids.

Right now, the biggest model stupidity is winged HTs, because those are huge metal models that you're supposed to put on GW's flying stands.

Gargoyles are nearly as bad.

If I ruled GW, all flying models would be plastic!

At least you'd sell a lot of Old One Eye models.

That's probably fake from what I've read, and if not than I still won't buy it.

No strength 10 carnifexes anymore, believe me it's not worth it.

Now that Synapse creatures can suffer Instant Death maybe the Tyranid power that makes it harder to use psychic powers (Psychic Scream?) will get more use as I can't think of any non psychic, non strength based abilities that cause Instant Death outside of Wraithcannnons.

If Extended Carapace doesn't boost Armour Saves only modifies AP then Ratling Snipers (and others) will be much more effective vs. all Tyranid Monstrous Creatures and even Ogryns (current rules) would be useful in a fight against them. Maybe 35 point Orgyns could find a niche as Tyranid Monstrous Creature killers.

It seems awfully bland to me. Well balanced, but boring. So I'd bet my gaunt hordes that this (if at all from GW) is a fair bit from the final codex. I think there will be one or two new very useful units, to make sure that even old time Tyranid players wants to buy some new models. Plastic cheap gargoyles could do that. Maybe add a few army-wide modifications, similar to the ones that new armies are getting from special characters, but either make them an ugprade for a HQ-choice or as an armywide option (like IG doctrines).

If this document represents the direction that tyranids are going in, I'll be farily happy. Horde armies are fun to play, if a bit tiring to paint, and it fits my image of the tyranid species very nicely.

Some other random thoughts:

- The Carnifex entry looks unfinished (never mind the typos). Where are options for thornback, tails and other bitz on the sprues?

As is, gunfexes will need synapse escorts to avoid running off. And I'm not sure I like Zoeys in that role as they're now able to be instakilled again by a lascannon shot. If I was going to run gunfexes of some ilk from this codex, I'd probably have to advance them alongside a Tyrant and maxed Tyrant Guard unit instead of having them lurk around in the rear.

- No implant attack for the Tyrant? :( Although perhaps Acid Maw is meant to counterbalance that. It'd make Wraithlords and other high T monsters a lot less threatening. I like Acid Maw here the more I think about it, actually.

- Most of the upgrades for Hormagaunts look too expensive at first blush. However, Acid Maw is kind of interesting. Give that to a good-sized unit and watch them drag down Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons, Avatars, C'tan, etc. That volume of attacks combined with poison is fairly nasty, if expensive.

- Spike rifle back, yay. Rules, boo. Not sure I see them being a popular option without a boost. Fleshborers lose the wound reroll (boo) but gain range (yay).

- Bye bye psychic choir. Still, forcing that many pinning checks is intriguing.

- Overall, I'm okay with their general design approach. I think it needs changes in spots, and I still really don't like their approach to carapace.