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I hope that they simply forget to include certain rules in this case..
Loss of living ammo sucks, Warp blast being split into two powers is weird, again no mention of thornback, Psychic scream replacing shooting as a pinning test in the days of everybody but Tau not caring about pinning means no one will take it anymore.

To Shummy, I disagree about stealers. Genestealers are supposed to be amazing killing machines that eat everyone and don't afraid of anything. I should not be worried that they are in base to base with Daemonettes. I should not be worried about them being in combat with berserkers. What is a close combat army if it is afraid of other close combat armies? They have always been the nastiest set of claws on two legs without monstrous creature status, but have always paid the points for it. Now they are being toned down to being relatively equivalent or worse than everyone elses troops. I understand the desire to have lord level characters compete with them finally, and I'm glad for that(because it makes Chaos Lords and such less of a liability when facing nids) but I think the nerf goes a bit too far. I would be happy with keeping the I at 6 if something had to give. One of the reasons I was drawn to nids in the first place was how their rules actually represented the unbelievable speed and ferocity they were capable of, even over Space Marines. Lictors used to be WS and I7 with 4 attacks for crying out loud. It was an unspoken characteristic that Tyranids were just that nasty, so you shot them. If for nothing else, I would like to keep that distinction so that the mental images of Tyranids in action I've had all these years don't disappear and make playing the army depressing.

Hmmmm... I've spent ages building my TWAR list and really like how it plays, so obviously I'm worried a little how much will change, but at the same time a new set of rules always inspires changes and additions. I do feel it's realistic the nids get a new book next year.

PS. Somebody please PM the link, thanks a lot!!!

Ha ha! The thread has just been deleted over at WarSeer with the notation "Confirmed fake".

Good

Why do people bother faking rumours?

Nothing better to do I guess, but why was it confirmed fake?

Headkeepa wrote:Nothing better to do I guess, but why was it confirmed fake?

No idea. I see Brimstone has just posted in the "2009-2010 Rumours" thread over at WarSeer that it was a fake. No other info other than that.

Well, if you go through the trouble of making a real fandex, you might as well make it a fake rumor while you're there.

Brimstone is seldom wrong, and he's seldom as terse as that without reason. I'm going to assume someone at GW has weighed in on the issue.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Brimstone is seldom wrong, and he's seldom as terse as that without reason. I'm going to assume someone at GW has weighed in on the issue.

And you would be correct a confession is not the only reason it was removed.

Railguns wrote:I hope that they simply forget to include certain rules in this case..
Loss of living ammo sucks, Warp blast being split into two powers is weird, again no mention of thornback, Psychic scream replacing shooting as a pinning test in the days of everybody but Tau not caring about pinning means no one will take it anymore.

To Shummy, I disagree about stealers. Genestealers are supposed to be amazing killing machines that eat everyone and don't afraid of anything. I should not be worried that they are in base to base with Daemonettes. I should not be worried about them being in combat with berserkers. What is a close combat army if it is afraid of other close combat armies? They have always been the nastiest set of claws on two legs without monstrous creature status, but have always paid the points for it. Now they are being toned down to being relatively equivalent or worse than everyone elses troops. I understand the desire to have lord level characters compete with them finally, and I'm glad for that(because it makes Chaos Lords and such less of a liability when facing nids) but I think the nerf goes a bit too far. I would be happy with keeping the I at 6 if something had to give. One of the reasons I was drawn to nids in the first place was how their rules actually represented the unbelievable speed and ferocity they were capable of, even over Space Marines. Lictors used to be WS and I7 with 4 attacks for crying out loud. It was an unspoken characteristic that Tyranids were just that nasty, so you shot them. If for nothing else, I would like to keep that distinction so that the mental images of Tyranids in action I've had all these years don't disappear and make playing the army depressing.

I would see the change as more of a re designation of the genestealer as a shock assault troop rather than a bizarre "super super" creature. They are still more skilled than space marines, which are supposed to be terrifying men of mythical power and speed, and thats with the drop. The initiative drop of the two stats is the one I was disappointed to see though. I did always like the idea that the genestealer was simply faster than what humans could ever be. I do have to disagree a bit that the genestealer "should" be better than a daemonette (A daemon of impossible speed and skill) or a khorne berserker (an insane superhuman gifted by the god of slaughter to be even more skilled and powerful. Who is also in powered armor). Genestealers are impressive no doubt, and their skill and speed is beyond superhuman, but so is most of the 40k setting. Should they be better than daemons? Supersoldier leaders who have spent the last 600 years training? Genetically engineered warbeings created by the old ones? I can respect it if your answers yes, as it is an interesting quirk of the biological superarmy, I'm just not so sure.

An confession posted by itcamefromthedeep over at Warseer:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3389454#post3389454

itcamefromthedeep wrote:

itcamefromthedeep wrote:
Mea culpa. T'was a practical joke on my part, to be played on the online 40k community. I thought you might want to know, having thrown a little bit of weight behind it. My intention with this message is to keep you well-informed as always, and perhaps to pass along my regards and best wishes to your contacts in GW.

And to be clear, I have heard nothing about the direction the new Tyranid codex is going in, if it has even been started. There is no leak, at least not to my knowledge.

I've had my laugh at Warseer's expense (as well as DakkaDakka, Heresy Online, and others), but the joke has not quite run its course yet. I expect to be outed eventually, but I'd like it to be by the real rumors.

I would humbly ask that you let the document stew. There was a fair bit of positive response, and I'd like that to be carried over for a while to come. Keep hope alive, so to speak. I kindly ask that you let it be debunked in good time as actual rumors about the new codex come out. Some of the positive response may be due to the conservative (high) points values given to many of the models and options in the codex, but I honestly believe that people appreciate some of the basic design decisions made in the "leak". From now on, I ask nothing more then silence.

Now, understand that it was in no way my intention to violate any copyright laws. To that end, I made sure to change things drastically enough that the document would be useless to someone trying to come up with a Tyranid list for the current edition. Literally no unit is the same. Similarly, I posted no background material for the units, nor did I use any Games Workshop letterhead, images, or watermarks. The names of units were used, but that was unfortunately unavoidable. I sought no profit from this.

Boy, I hope GW legal has a sense of humor about this prank.

My intention was, from the very beginning, to have a bit of harmless fun, and maybe (just maybe), give the current codex designers a taste of how the community would receive the changes I proposed in this document. Hopefully this document could even offer some suggestions as to where GW might go with the Tyranids. I would love it if something truly positive came out of this. To gauge the response, however, I'd like the authenticity (or lack thereof) to remain a secret for now.

I don't actually know where GW is in the production phase. It may be too late to do anything about it if we see a December release. If so, then whatever. I'll live with it. I just hope they do a better job then I did!

Once more, this is all in good humor.

Regards and best wishes.

And then Brim had to go and spoil my fun. There was so much good will. There were a few complaints (mostly justified, and I agreed with most), but the overall reaction was so positive that I thought Brim would just let it go.

Some people just can't take a joke.

======

You see, it started with the usual "If I wrote the next Tyranid Codex..." which is always very unsatisfying. The beginnings of the fandex were percolating. So then I thought to myself: "You know who's really serious about rumors? Warseer." The practical joke was a baby step away. From there I decided to make it the best fandex I could, not only to make it sound real, but to show up the real designers if I could.

Now, there were loads of mistakes (I'm only one man, without a full-time editor!). Not the least of the sources for suspicion was the hidden document info, which I know existed but didn't have the computer-fu to mess with. Another was the "new unit". I have some ideas, but balancing that sort of thing is a nightmare, and I had already discovered when trying to balance other unit prices. As soon as you're behind the reigns of a new power or mechanic, you suddenly have no idea what anything should cost. It's incredible. I tried to reduce/increase costs of things that were seen to be under/over powered, but with so many new mechanics and USRs around, I really needed some proofreading from friends, who caught some very silly stuff. It never occurred to me, for instance, that the poison re-roll synergizes particularly well with Rending. Overall, I tried to be conservative with the prices on the USR upgrades, just because I was scared that I had lost perspective on their power.

Anyone up for a thread on codex design? I can practically guarantee it'll be the closest thing that many of us get to a truly meaty "designer's notes" section. Or should I stick my practical joke where the sun don't shine?

Oh, and as for the OP, I have no idea about the other rumors on that list. That's got nothin' to do with me.

That's good. There were real headscratchers in among the good stuff.

Not that there won't be headscratchers when the real thing's out, LOL.

To Shuma:

My answer would be yes, actually. It was what made them impressive. Yes, these guys had daemonic power, or ancient super technology, or hundreds of years of training, etc, but genestealers things were just perfect killing machines that illustrated fear in the human psyche. These are the predators, a primal human fear. A caveman couldn't hope to match a lion in personal combat so either he hid behind spears and friends to fight them or died with his hands out and eyes closed trying to hide from this insurmountable fear and helplessness in the face of a predator. In the far future of super powered megaman in power armor and battleships that destroy planets as a matter of course, what kind of predator is going to represent such a primal fear? The kind the represent the same challenge. With all your technology and gene conditioning and training, this thing is still faster, stronger, and tougher than you and it will kill you and eat you. Though you may shoot them down and crush some of them under the weight of firepower you know that alone, without your fellows, weapons and fate to hide behind they will kill you. Genestealers and Lictors being imperceptably fast were a strong nod towards this theme, especially when compared to the superhuman space marines.

Back in 2nd Ed, a Genestealer was a match of a Marine Captain. Two or three Genestealers would likely eat a Marine Captain for lunch.

And this is in 2nd Ed, a game dubbed HeroHammer because of how powerful characters were. Genestealers and Lictors were two of the few troop types that could stand toe-to-toe (or claw-to-toe really) against these megalithic powerhouses of destruction.

Yes, in the long run, the difference between WS6/I6 and WS5/I5 isn't that huge. In current 40K, where WS isn't as important and most things are I4 and below, the a change like that would be a much of a muchness - but it really is about what sort of images Genestealers counjure up. Genestealers have held a special place amongst all other HTH troops because their skills were always superior, no matter the technology or training of their opponents. It is what made them unique amongst all the other types of HTH fighters. The only unit that could ever come close to matching them were Harlis, and they're another iconic unit with a heavy amount of mystique piled onto them.

Now this Codex is fake as some of us suspected, so this is all mostly moot - but I much prefer the idea of WS6/I6 Genestealers because it just feels right to me - more right than giving them A3.

Railguns wrote:To Shuma:

My answer would be yes, actually. It was what made them impressive. Yes, these guys had daemonic power, or ancient super technology, or hundreds of years of training, etc, but genestealers things were just perfect killing machines that illustrated fear in the human psyche. These are the predators, a primal human fear. A caveman couldn't hope to match a lion in personal combat so either he hid behind spears and friends to fight them or died with his hands out and eyes closed trying to hide from this insurmountable fear and helplessness in the face of a predator. In the far future of super powered megaman in power armor and battleships that destroy planets as a matter of course, what kind of predator is going to represent such a primal fear? The kind the represent the same challenge. With all your technology and gene conditioning and training, this thing is still faster, stronger, and tougher than you and it will kill you and eat you. Though you may shoot them down and crush some of them under the weight of firepower you know that alone, without your fellows, weapons and fate to hide behind they will kill you. Genestealers and Lictors being imperceptably fast were a strong nod towards this theme, especially when compared to the superhuman space marines.

I accept this. I like the thought here too. I'm just not sure how thats to be entirely represented in the game. They are the superior "predator" to all the sentient races, but how do they compare to daemons honestly? Both are the things that keep men up at night, just in different forms. Though whether thats a call to make daemon troops better or genestealers worse I'm not sure. I wish this game was on a more meaningful scale of numbers. 1-10 seems like a lot but in reality its only 3-7 as far as weapon skill and initiative really go. Four points. There are gradations that simply can't be represented with such a small range.

Now this Codex is fake as some of us suspected, so this is all mostly moot - but I much prefer the idea of WS6/I6 Genestealers because it just feels right to me - more right than giving them A3.

I felt like trying to keep the thread alive given the death of its actual topic. I figured it was a good point of conversation given the previous posts on the subject.

Since this has been confirmed a homebrewn codex (and imho a pretty reasonable and interesting one, respect to the creator!) I think it would be allright to leave a link:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13214805/Tyranids-5th-edition-Playtest

It is a very interesting list to base discussions like "What do I want for the coming Tyranid Codex" around. I particularily like the price-per-unit for biomorph upgrades.

PS: If this turns out to really be a testplay Codex, copyrighted and whatnot by GW, and Itcamefromthedeep is pulling my leg, then I guess I'll hear from the dakka mods soon enough... :-)

I'm not a fan of the price per unit mechanic, it makes sense with chaos upgrades but tyranid point values are supposed to be based on the difficulty of construction of a creature. Which doesn't make sense when they vary in that way.

It's also kind of a non sensical pointing mechanic that unreasonably harms smaller squads.

Although it has been confirmed a fake, that doesn't mean that there isn'y anything to be learned from the discussion.

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm not a fan of the price per unit mechanic, it makes sense with chaos upgrades but tyranid point values are supposed to be based on the difficulty of construction of a creature. Which doesn't make sense when they vary in that way.

Honestly, I don't think points-per-model should have much to do with fluff. But if you insist: Imagine that the points goes into making up the blueprint for the unit, mixing and matching all the genes, making sure the limbs and guns goes in the right direction etc etc. The effort needed to actually create each creature could be pretty small compared to setting the parameters right, compare to how printing worked before the digital press. What I ment was that it is an interesting game-mechanic, since it encourages big units, wich I find a refreshing and challenging difference to how most other 40k armies work.

ubermosher wrote:

Dexy wrote:obviously a hoax, everyone knows GW doesn't play test.

And with that Dexy wins.

/thread

ooooooh called so early in the thread.

It must be a relief and a disappointment to tyranid players for this to not be genuine.

Mellon wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm not a fan of the price per unit mechanic, it makes sense with chaos upgrades but tyranid point values are supposed to be based on the difficulty of construction of a creature. Which doesn't make sense when they vary in that way.

Honestly, I don't think points-per-model should have much to do with fluff. But if you insist: Imagine that the points goes into making up the blueprint for the unit, mixing and matching all the genes, making sure the limbs and guns goes in the right direction etc etc. The effort needed to actually create each creature could be pretty small compared to setting the parameters right, compare to how printing worked before the digital press. What I ment was that it is an interesting game-mechanic, since it encourages big units, wich I find a refreshing and challenging difference to how most other 40k armies work.

I also dislike it from a conceptual balance standpoint for the reason in my second paragraph. Its a hamfisted solution.

Mellon wrote:Since this has been confirmed a homebrewn codex (and imho a pretty reasonable and interesting one, respect to the creator!) I think it would be allright to leave a link:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13214805/Tyranids-5th-edition-Playtest

It is a very interesting list to base discussions like "What do I want for the coming Tyranid Codex" around. I particularily like the price-per-unit for biomorph upgrades.

PS: If this turns out to really be a testplay Codex, copyrighted and whatnot by GW, and Itcamefromthedeep is pulling my leg, then I guess I'll hear from the dakka mods soon enough... :-)

itcamefromthedeep deleted the pdf already, so the link's no good.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:

itcamefromthedeep deleted the pdf already, so the link's no good.

Bah, good thing I saved it to my harddrive then :-) Here it is.

Note: I take no credit for this fanmade codex, it is all the hard work of Itcamefromthedeep of Warseer-fame:

Railguns wrote:Although it has been confirmed a fake, that doesn't mean that there isn'y anything to be learned from the discussion.

I'm more then happy to talk about what I did right and what I did wrong working on that document.

There's the obvious stuff, like the Hive Tyrant bit in the Carnifex entry. Then there's stuff like moving Genestealers to Elites, which from the perspective of a lot of players demands some explanation.

Remember that I'm no more of an expert than the community says I am. It fooled some people, which is an ego boost, but there were definitely some questionable design decisions.

As for what has already been mentioned:

WS/I on Genetealers:
That was a largely a mechanical decision, and perhaps not an appropriate one. I thought Initiative and WS 6 was over the top, particularly for a monster seen in the numbers that Genestealers are. From the fluff perspective it seemed like an inefficient investment for a critter so numerous and squishy. I'm not particularly attached to that decision.

Putting them in Elites was one of the uglier decisions I made (at least intentional decisions). First, they're elite shock troops. That sounds Elite. Second, the Elites section was looking pretty bare without Elite Carnifexes there. It was pretty much Warriors and Lictors. The third reason was that I wanted to emphasize the importance of synapse, to the tune that you can't have any scoring units without it. Removing Independant broods from the Troops section was important for that. Synapse just hasn't mattered for most of the Tyranid codexes up 'till now, and I wanted to change that.

Upgrades by Brood:
This one was simple. I wanted to encourage larger broods. Not much more than that. I have to say a side benefit became apparent to me, though. It allowed for costs that would work out to fractions of points per model, without actually dealing with fractions of points. The price per brood system allows for greater variety in pricing and relative effectiveness. I wouldn't lose sleep if the price/brood thing didn't happen for Tyranids, but realize that such a mechanic is already common. CSM icons are an obvious example, but other examples include the new Apothecary and the Painboy, which have a flat price for a scaling benefit. Enhance on an Eldar Warlock. A more subtle example is that the Power Klaw on a Nob becomes more valuable the more ablative Wounds it has.

Synapse:
Yeah, that was ugly. I simply haven't found a good way of dealing with it mechanically. How do you make a mechanic that will make an army "fall apart" without it? The best thing I thought of is to have the Tyranids go on autopilot without Synapse. This was yet another blow to the Carnifex model, but I wanted to make them follow the rules to, or else Synapse goes back to meaning very little again.

Any other WTF decisions you guys want cleared up?

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:itcamefromthedeep deleted the pdf already, so the link's no good.

Shall I put it back up?

As I said earlier, I found it a little bland, lacking new models for example. What is your idea for a new unit?

I like stealers becoming elite, but with this greater dependency on synapse, I think there should be some more Synapse source. Maybe the lictor, to give him some use. Maybe an activated psychic power "Call of the hivemind" that extends Synapse control over one unit within 18" for the rest of the turn. Synapse creatures should be crucial, but the synapse net must not be so frail that it breaks into irreparability when one hivetyrant dies.

Heya ICFTD, I thought that Genestealers as Elite and Brood-based upgrades were *good* ideas, along with the revised Instinctive Behavior.

The Genestealer WS/I is OK, as WS5+ and I5+ are what's required to hit Marines on 3+, first. More than that is perhaps overkill, but would be possible via buying Adrenal Glands for I6.

itcamefromthedeep wrote:I'm more then happy to talk about what I did right and what I did wrong working on that document.

I do have one question:

The choice to make Wings a weapon on Warriors/Hive Tyrants. Now I understand the FW conversion kits do this, but is there a reason you did this beyond that?

itcamefromthedeep wrote:Putting them in Elites was one of the uglier decisions I made (at least intentional decisions).

As someone who has been writing (and in some cases struggling to write) the Tyranid Codex for our big Warhammer 40,000 Revisited project, our Genestealers have gone through more revisions than anything else in the Tyranid Codex. The most recent change was a movement on the FOC. Now, in our Codex we dumped the HQ/Elite/Troops/Fast Attack/Heavy Support system for Tyranids because it simply didn't make sense. There are only three types of Tyranids - Leader Creatures, Broods and Autonomous Creatures, and that's where they fall. Genestealers were originally part of Broods, and even with the reductions in power that we've given them (they were WS6 S4 I6 A3 w/Rending Power Weapons to start with... they've changed a lot since then) they were still so powerful that they negated the need for Gaunts.

So I moved them to Autonomous Creatures, where they now have to compete with Lictors, Warriors, Carnifexes, Biovores etc. all of which have a purpose in my Codex.

And speaking of Warriors, I do like what you did with them. My ones are T4(5) with a 3+ save rather than a flat T5. The only thing I didn't like was the Acid Jet cannon because it was a bit 'meh'.

BYE

Mellon wrote:As I said earlier, I found it a little bland, lacking new models for example. What is your idea for a new unit?

I didn't go much farther than brainstorming. I had already spent a significant amount of time on the project, and I wanted to get the ball rolling. It was "rushed out the door", after a fashion. I never got as far as stat lines.

In general, when playing against Tyranids I wanted to create a feeling that they were coming at you fast from all sides, as if the terrain and the world itself were your enemy. I would make a unit that pursued that goal. The first thing to come to mind was an immobile creature that would deep strike onto the board and attack anything nearby, to represent a "defensive" static organism erupting from the ground, capillary-tower style.

I would have liked to include a Haruspex or Malefactor, which for those of you who never played Epic are Tyranid troop transports. I'm thinking a giant armored-plated segmented slug with talons at the front. Tyranids would hide in the recesses of it's plates. Visually, think of a Protoss Reaver in shape, with more prominent plates with lots of space in between them. It would work as a monstrous creature that uses rules for an open-topped transport. I'll concede that the Assault Spawn might be more appropriate for Apocalypse, where they can take advantage of the Gargantuan Creature rules straight up.

Mellon wrote:I like stealers becoming elite, but with this greater dependency on synapse, I think there should be some more Synapse source. Maybe the lictor, to give him some use. Maybe an activated psychic power "Call of the hivemind" that extends Synapse control over one unit within 18" for the rest of the turn. Synapse creatures should be crucial, but the synapse net must not be so frail that it breaks into irreparability when one hivetyrant dies.

A new Synapse creature would most likely be a new unit for the Codex. It doesn't make much sense for Lictors given previous background.

As for Synapse coverage, that is a serious problem under my codex. My expectation was that people would load up on big fat broods of Warriors to cover large areas with durable Synapse, keep the Genestealers and Lictors to a minimum, and probably bring along Zoanthropes for some more support as well as Biovores because they don't care about Synapse. Genestealers and Lictors would be used to attack targets well outside Synapse coverage.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Heya ICFTD, I thought that Genestealers as Elite and Brood-based upgrades were *good* ideas, along with the revised Instinctive Behavior.

Thanks, but many people didn't at first glance. I wanted to at least talk about why that was done. Thanks again.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The choice to make Wings a weapon on Warriors/Hive Tyrants. Now I understand the FW conversion kits do this, but is there a reason you did this beyond that?

Well, the Gargoyle models seem to use one of their existing 6 limbs to fly, in their case the middle limbs that appear to be quite small and near-useless on Gaunts.

The big reason, though, was a mechanic that would control Flyrants other then simply upping the price of the upgrade. Replacing a (valuable) weapon seemed the best solution, given Forge World and others. Now, another consideration was of course that I wanted the document to be believeable, and leaving the Forge World models as an Easter Egg appealed to me. This project was first and foremost for fun, and you have no idea how happy I was watching the Warseer thread when someone complained about replacing a weapon set and another rebutted with the Forge World models.

H.B.M.C. wrote:As someone who has been writing (and in some cases struggling to write) the Tyranid Codex for our big Warhammer 40,000 Revisited project, our Genestealers have gone through more revisions than anything else in the Tyranid Codex. The most recent change was a movement on the FOC...

Messing with basic mechanics like the FOC was straight out for my purposes. It is in no way believable. I like the system they have in place, for a number of reasons. Suffice it to say that such an option is out until we see precedent for GW on this.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And speaking of Warriors, I do like what you did with them. My ones are T4(5) with a 3+ save rather than a flat T5. The only thing I didn't like was the Acid Jet cannon because it was a bit 'meh'.

I wasn't really happy with the Pyro-Acid Spitter. I wanted a template weapon somewhere in the list. Bio-plasma was the first candidate (that's what it did in 2nd), but that left every Gargoyle with a template weapon, and that many templates is an ugly rules proposition. Tyranids use something called "pyro-acid" in Battlefleet Gothic, and that sounds like a sprayey-flamey thing, so it became the flamer.