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I have to come in and lodge full support for redbeard on the whole rokkit issue.

Firstly, the rokkit doesn't have a special rule that says "unit may not run".

Second, the power klaw is NOT a primary anti-tank weapon. I love to abuse vehicle walls against gamblers and people with math-hammer blindspots. If I wall off a 30 man boy unit with 2 devildogs, by moving 12". You need 6s to hit them, when you charge you must "not hold back" which ends up having all of your models pressed flat against my side armor, three deep in base to base contact along a line. Win lose or draw, you aren't getting a consolidate move. The surviving devildogs (probably both of them), any other devildog and chimera will be there to lay out a template. The squadroned vehicles get to tally up all their hits before you can pull models. Its a death sentence.

You are walled off, you aren't fast enough to go around, so there is no bonus to running. this is where you unload your rokkits. Until you crack the transports, you can run all you want, but there is nothing for you to kill. Slow down, shoot, open up transports, THEN get aggressive. If you get too close to a mech army with no clutch means of opening armor, you are committing an error and are going to get templated.

Back to topic. Absolutely foot orks can be good. And i think it was even Redbeard who wrote a guide to playing fast games with them. Ard boys would be a stretch, but 1500 and 1750 shouldn't be too hard to get all your turns in.

The first step to making a foot ork army is deciding "how to bring your cover save"
There are three correct answers. All three are equaly viable, with their own strengths and weaknesses.

1. Grots. The cheapest and most straightforward. Run a wall of grots in front of your boys. They are troops, people HATE shooting at them, and as long as you keep them with WIDE gaps between models, they shouldn't interfere with boys charging through from behind. Their weakness is that their cover save is directional. And that fast assaulting opponents can get to, and dispatch grots with ease.

2. Mad Dok Grotsnik and 20+ ard boyz. Run the unit with no cover for itself, as a screen for boys behind it. Feel no Pain, 4+ armor AND tons of bodies is a ridiculously hard nut to crack, they are worth their cost. The only foot ork list to win a GT last year was running behind this unit. It's weakness? Mad Doks special rules make the unit a little difficult to control, and the cover save is directional.

3. KFF meks. include KFF meks as your HQs. These work best with units of killa kans. line the killa kans in a big spread, with one of the kans withn 6" of the KFF. that gives the kan unit a 4+ save, and the unit that is behind it gets a 4+ too. You can use the KFFs without vehicles, but it gets less exciting, you get omni-directional cover saves, but they are only 5+.

Another thing foot armies need is early turn influence. For this I recommend lootas and big guns (kannons).

I would start a serious ork foot list with 45 lootas, then look at how you are going to get cover. Buy at least 90 boys with rokkits and power klaw nobs with bosspoles. Then select your HQ. If you are going the KF route I'd take 2 kff meks and then spend the rest of the points on kans. If you choose ard boys take mad dok grotsnik, and if you choose grots I'd vote for ghazgkull.

From that core I'd say that you could get creative and finish the list off based on playstyle and metagame.

Hope that was helpful.

The Warhammer 40K rulebook, under the heading "Dice", in the sidebar marked "Re-rolls & Roll-offs", would appear to disagree with you.

kaun666 wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

And, most importantly, they dont run. EVERY TIME the grot squad fails it's morral, a squig kills d3 of them and then you reroll it again. the more grots, the longer you can keep this up. Especially in small point games, i love fielding some grots.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way, as that would be rerolling a reroll.

The rules clearly state "Every time the mob has to take a moral test" wich means yes, I can reroll a reroll

Actually the basic rules state that you can never reroll a reroll, no matter what ability you're using.

Ian Sturrock wrote:The Warhammer 40K rulebook, under the heading "Dice", in the sidebar marked "Re-rolls & Roll-offs", would appear to disagree with you.

Hmm. I'm going to need to look at this in further detail. Thanx

dumbuket wrote:Why is it that everytime someone brings up horde orks people start talking about colossus and eradicator fire?

Who uses either of those models? Nobody, that's who! Look at the lists on these forums. Check out all the 'mech vet' threads. Heavy support slots are always filled with executioners, demolishers, hydras, medusas... never eradicators or colossuses (collosi?).

Not so say that 'ard boys have nothing to worry about, but bringing those models up as the easy counter is like bringing up flash gits as the perfect answer to terminators - it may be true (it's not), but nobody uses them!

I play IG, sometimes mech vet and sometimes not, and I bring a Colossus (or two) pretty frequently. They're great in objective games for prying units out of cover.
And of the things you name, executioners and hydras are both serious threats to 'ard boyz anyway.

Shep wrote:I have to come in and lodge full support for redbeard on the whole rokkit issue.

Firstly, the rokkit doesn't have a special rule that says "unit may not run".

Second, the power klaw is NOT a primary anti-tank weapon. I love to abuse vehicle walls against gamblers and people with math-hammer blindspots. If I wall off a 30 man boy unit with 2 devildogs, by moving 12". You need 6s to hit them, when you charge you must "not hold back" which ends up having all of your models pressed flat against my side armor, three deep in base to base contact along a line. Win lose or draw, you aren't getting a consolidate move. The surviving devildogs (probably both of them), any other devildog and chimera will be there to lay out a template. The squadroned vehicles get to tally up all their hits before you can pull models. Its a death sentence.

So first let me say I agree with you about taking rokkits in squads. However, what kind of orc player are you playing? So you run your devildog up 12" inches and park them right in front of my mob an inch away, or tank shock me. Either way on my turn I back all the orks up 6 inches so that they all have no way to get into base to base shoot my rokkits and then charge. This helps lessen the shock of the flamer's of doom if you fail to shake or kill the devil dogs.

The other nice thing about putting rokkits in the squad is that when someone does tank shock you, you can have the rokkit death or glory, and not lose a precious nob.

EDIT: Removed, bad failure to read subsequent posts before replying.

kaun666 wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

And, most importantly, they dont run. EVERY TIME the grot squad fails it's morral, a squig kills d3 of them and then you reroll it again. the more grots, the longer you can keep this up. Especially in small point games, i love fielding some grots.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way, as that would be rerolling a reroll.

The rules clearly state "Every time the mob has to take a moral test" wich means yes, I can reroll a reroll

But failing the reroll is not the same as failing a morale test. The morale test has already been failed. The reroll is part of that same test. If the reroll fails you have still failed only one morale test, and have rolled that test as many times as you are ever allowed.

The biggest downside I've experienced playing an Ork horde list is how my back and knees feel after a tourney. I spend a lot time hunkered over tables as I move lots of individual models. I don't advocate movement trays as terrain really makes the trays unwieldy.

On the plus side, seeing a fully painted horde army on the table just plain looks cool.

There are a lot of internet lists out there that can punch an Ork horde right in the face. However, you need to judge how likely you are to face these kinds of lists where you play. Locally, I don't see these lists, so it's a bit of a nonfactor. YMMV, however.

Raxmei wrote:

kaun666 wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

And, most importantly, they dont run. EVERY TIME the grot squad fails it's morral, a squig kills d3 of them and then you reroll it again. the more grots, the longer you can keep this up. Especially in small point games, i love fielding some grots.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way, as that would be rerolling a reroll.

The rules clearly state "Every time the mob has to take a moral test" wich means yes, I can reroll a reroll

But failing the reroll is not the same as failing a morale test. The morale test has already been failed. The reroll is part of that same test. If the reroll fails you have still failed only one morale test, and have rolled that test as many times as you are ever allowed.

What. Sorry, what? You only get to re-roll once. If a Librarian with Null Zone hits Fateweave you don't spend the rest of eternity re-rolling your invul save because each re-roll is its own test. You roll once. Ignore the result. Re-roll and take that. Thats it.

Thanx everyone this is my current list, is it able to hold up competitively or not, do i need to add more fire power or something else. please tell me as i need to give a friend a good orky hidin'!!

Waaagh! Gutrippa 1500 pts

HQ
Warboss Gutrippa = warbike, power klaw, attack squig, cybork body = 150 pts

Big Mek Lugnutz = Kustom Force Field, eavy armour = 90 pts

Troop
Ork Boyz squad Thrugg’s Ladz = 30 Boyz, Nob Thrugg, power klaw = 215 pts

Ork Boyz squad Grugg’s Ladz = 30 Boyz, Nob Grugg, power klaw = 215 pts

Ork Boyz squad Zugg’s Ladz = 30 Boyz, Nob Zugg, power klaw = 215 pts

Ork Boyz squad Krugg’s Ladz = 29 Boyz, Nob Krugg, power klaw = 209 pts

Fast Attack
Deffkoptas = twin-linked rokkit = 45 pts

Deffkoptas = twin-linked rokkit = 45 pts

Deffkoptas = twin-linked rokkit = 45 pts

Heavy Support
3 Killa Kanz = 3 grotzookas = 135 pts

3 Killa Kanz = 3 grotzookas = 135 pts

the deffkoptas will be together i anihilate and by themselves in others.

Cheers.

Chuck Norris's tears can cure cancer, its a shame he has neveer cried.

Old Sledgeaxe wrote:the deffkoptas will be together i anihilate and by themselves in others.

Does your gaming group have some sort of rule about these sort of list tweaks? While what you're saying makes sense tactically, it's not really something that is normally allowed per se. The ability to dynamically adjust squads to suit the mission during deployment is nominally reserved for units that have a rule to that effect, such as IG platoons and SM combat squads. If your opponent doesn't mind though, have at it!

As for the guts of the list... I don't know if I like having Grotzookas on all 6 Kanz. Never used them myself (just now getting into using Kanz at all), but I sort of think of that as a waste to throw away that BS3. I'd like to see some more rokkits there myself For your Boyz, are you running all Shootas, all Choppas/Sluggas, or a mix of squads? Also, I noticed you have no Bosspoles. With big squads like that, it doesn't look like you would need them, but I might suggest dropping one boy to give a Pole to your Big Mek, as the last thing you want is a bad leadership check to sent him running if a gunline manages to saturate his unit down far enough to take a test. Seeing this list coming at me, that'd be MY first idea.

On the whole, 130 models in 1500 points is going to be hard to handle for your opponent, but with only 3 relatively vulnerable rokkits in your list, I worry about your ability to do enough damage against medium armor vehicles. Keeping your Kanz in KFF range is going to slow you down a touch as somebody's going to roll poorly on a run, which with that many bodies makes for a big logjam. This puts your Deffkoptas and your Warboss out front to deal with vehicles solo for the first turn or two, as you've really got no range on the field and they're your only speed. On a good day you'll get a weapon destroyed or a stun on a tank with your rokkits, and then smart return fire has just templates on your horde, any anti-tank being more likely to target your Koptas and Warboss than your Kanz, as they're not a real threat until at least turn 3. Each S8+ hit on a kopta is a 2+ to insta-kill. I'd expect this list to do fairly well against 3 battle tanks or less (Think rhino rush marines), and smash up infantry gunlines. Players geared up for the current metagame with serious mechanization, especially any guard players, should be able to give this list a sound thumping just through proper target prioritization.

Darkhound, you are wrong in this instance, what happens is you lose X amount of grots when you fail the test, and may then make a new test. It is not a straight re-roll like an Guard Regimental standard. We went through this when the codex came out while I was working in games workshop in west edmonton. They're are another 3 or four ork units that just break the normal rules, Like Thraka, a slow in purposeful model cannot gain +1 attack on the charge as states in the rulebook, THraka however gets +2 attacks on the charge.

doubled wrote:Darkhound, you are wrong in this instance, what happens is you lose X amount of grots when you fail the test, and may then make a new test. It is not a straight re-roll like an Guard Regimental standard. We went through this when the codex came out while I was working in games workshop in west edmonton. They're are another 3 or four ork units that just break the normal rules, Like Thraka, a slow in purposeful model cannot gain +1 attack on the charge as states in the rulebook, THraka however gets +2 attacks on the charge.

If you're taking a new test, I don't particularly care if you pass or fail it, because you failed the first one, you're falling back. Period. The only thing that can prevent that is re-rolling the failed test, which you can only do once, or by your interpretation here not at all.

doubled wrote:Darkhound, you are wrong in this instance, what happens is you lose X amount of grots when you fail the test, and may then make a new test. It is not a straight re-roll like an Guard Regimental standard. We went through this when the codex came out while I was working in games workshop in west edmonton. They're are another 3 or four ork units that just break the normal rules, Like Thraka, a slow in purposeful model cannot gain +1 attack on the charge as states in the rulebook, THraka however gets +2 attacks on the charge.

Consult the 5th edition rules: Slow and Purposeful no longer denies a model a bonus attack for charging, hence Thraka's rules are now consistent with the basic rules.

Old Sledgeaxe wrote:the deffkoptas will be together i anihilate and by themselves in others.

Nurglitch wrote:Does your gaming group have some sort of rule about these sort of list tweaks? While what you're saying makes sense tactically, it's not really something that is normally allowed per se. The ability to dynamically adjust squads to suit the mission during deployment is nominally reserved for units that have a rule to that effect, such as IG platoons and SM combat squads. If your opponent doesn't mind though, have at it!

In our local comp we arent to fussed about small changes like this, we cant change points, wargear or add and take squads but we can change composition without to much argument.

Nurglitch wrote:As for the guts of the list... I don't know if I like having Grotzookas on all 6 Kanz. Never used them myself (just now getting into using Kanz at all), but I sort of think of that as a waste to throw away that BS3. I'd like to see some more rokkits there myself For your Boyz, are you running all Shootas, all Choppas/Sluggas, or a mix of squads? Also, I noticed you have no Bosspoles. With big squads like that, it doesn't look like you would need them, but I might suggest dropping one boy to give a Pole to your Big Mek, as the last thing you want is a bad leadership check to sent him running if a gunline manages to saturate his unit down far enough to take a test. Seeing this list coming at me, that'd be MY first idea.

I ran this by in another post about wether to take rokits or zookas, the vast majority said that zookas are better but i have magnitised them so i can chnge them if i want. It all depends on the opponent (not tournament, individual game), if i verse Tyranids i take zookas but if i verse the rhino rush list (he's not to good at it, but fun game!!) i take rokkits. I havent got all of my boyz yet, but they are all sluggas now (about 40) i dont know wether to take shootas or 50/50 or all sluggas? Thanx for the suggestion bout the mek bosspole idea.

Nurglitch wrote:On the whole, 130 models in 1500 points is going to be hard to handle for your opponent, but with only 3 relatively vulnerable rokkits in your list, I worry about your ability to do enough damage against medium armor vehicles. Keeping your Kanz in KFF range is going to slow you down a touch as somebody's going to roll poorly on a run, which with that many bodies makes for a big logjam. This puts your Deffkoptas and your Warboss out front to deal with vehicles solo for the first turn or two, as you've really got no range on the field and they're your only speed. On a good day you'll get a weapon destroyed or a stun on a tank with your rokkits, and then smart return fire has just templates on your horde, any anti-tank being more likely to target your Koptas and Warboss than your Kanz, as they're not a real threat until at least turn 3. Each S8+ hit on a kopta is a 2+ to insta-kill. I'd expect this list to do fairly well against 3 battle tanks or less (Think rhino rush marines), and smash up infantry gunlines. Players geared up for the current metagame with serious mechanization, especially any guard players, should be able to give this list a sound thumping just through proper target prioritization.

Yeah i was worried bout the lack of anti tank as well until i remebered that i only face a monolith, a hammerhead and skyray, 1 predator (may change now as they have heard about my horde plans), and 3 rhinos (different person). Some told me that i should take a Nob Biker squad but it costs to much points and i lose precious numbers. is it a good idea to take nob bikers or not? There are no guard players in the local area so i dont worry to much about that. Should i get rid of the biker boss and have him walk with one of the squads or not? Would Lootas be a good option or not, still unsure.

Thanks for that and it would be a great help if you could answer my questions.

Old Sledgeaxe.

Crop circles are CHuck Norris' way of telling people that sometimes corn needs to lie the F**K down.

EDIT* removed for redundancy.

ketsugami wrote:
It really, really depends on the guard army. I personally see the horde army as a fine answer to a mech guard force, which is certainly popular right now

This is my experience as well (even though I do not field a fully mechanized list; only 5 Chimeras and 2 Valks). Horde Orks is what gives me the fits, and no amount of heavy flamers appears to be able to change that.

Redbeard wrote:
But, I find that there are often enough things that shooting is worthwhile. 3 orks with rokkits are more likely to hit with one than a marine with a missile launcher. If you're already close, shoot a transport, as you can then assault the contents. If your only option is assaulting the transport, then whatever you do it it, the contents are free to shoot you next turn, and if that includes templates it is going to hurt.

Do you mean destroying the transport in the shooting phase, and then assaulting the unit that has been forced to disembark? I wasn't aware that there was any way around the you-shoot-it-you-charge-it rule, unless the transport was still alive and could be multicharged along with the intended target... but then they'd still be in the vehicle, right?

If you're up against a rear AV 10, claw or not, assaulting the vehicle and blocking off access points is a good one. Even if you can't glance it to death, chances are you'll stun or immobilise it, effectively pinning the passengers. The main disadvantage of assaulting a vehicle is template vulnerability, and the overall fact that the unit is not considered 'engaged' makes this a liability. I immobilised a LR with a claw once and just left my boys within an inch of the access points, nullifying 6 terminators. The LR weaponry was never going to kill enough boyz to make a difference and the rest of my army easily engaged the remainder, with 500 points taken out of the equation - it was hilarious. If I'd had a unit of Grots nearby to swap for them the next turn it would have been even funnier.

There's an exception to that rule: If you shoot at a transport and destroy it, you can then assault the contents after the disembarkation. I'd have to go back and read it in more detail to confirm whether this is only for the unit that actually destroyed the transport, or if the same exception applies for units that had already fired at the transport but did not destroy it.

I guess they can.
In the last year's GT Heat 1, the winner played an Ork horde army (1750 pts).

Complete brainfart on my last post there. Of course they can assault something else if they destroy the vehicle.

I'm taking this to a 1000pt event soon:

Big Mek w/ KFF
25 'Ard Boyz, Nob w/ PK+Bosspole
20 Boyz, Nob w/ PK, 'Eavy + Bosspole
20 Boyz, Nob w/ PK, 'Eavy + Bosspole
20 Boyz, Nob w/ PK, 'Eavy + 2 Rokkits
15 Gretchin + Runtherd
15 Gretchin + Runtherd

I know there'll be at least one person with a dual LR list, but what can you do?

Not quite, Arctik, you're in the right direction though. If you destroy a vehicle in shooting, there's only one thing you can assault: a unit that was inside said vehicle when it was destroyed.

As to that list, I've toyed with the idea of Gretchin before, and I've got around 80 lying around for kicks and giggles in Apoc games, but when you're trying to fit in to a list, I'd honestly just rather have another small squad of boyz than a big squad of gretchin. You really don't save many points over boyz, and they can't really do all that much in game other than give cover saves. If that's what you're using these for, go right ahead. But if you're looking to sit them on home objectives, don't even bother in my opinion. One deepstriking or outflanking unit will roll one or both squads without even breaking a sweat.