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Night Lords:

Quite right, no one cares how I play it, and no one cares how you play it either, except the people we play with. The matter of a Chaos Dreadnought's line of sight is, however, a matter of what the rules say and thus how we should play it, which matters to everyone who plays 40k. In most social settings I'm familiar with, people play by the rules. Maybe things are different in your neck of the woods.

Now, back to relevant stuf, like what Chaos Dreadnoughts can actually do.

What you're getting a unit that isn't an easily known quantity, that has firepower that can't be ignored, that can hold up enemy assault units without suffering No Retreat!, as well as destroy small units on its own, and that ignores anti-infantry firepower. The fact is that as a Chaos Space Marine player you can plan for its behaviour far better than your opponent.

At 125 for a Plasma Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower, and Extra Armour, a Chaos Dreadnought is less than a 10 man unit of Chaos Space Marines, by quite a margin once you figure in weaponry to give them equivalent punch, transport for similar movement and protection, That's ignoring the Dreadnought's ability to move and fire its heavy weapons at full effect, unless either Rhino-riding infantry or Obliterators. As for "Termicide" squads, well, that's an incredible waste of points. 35pts for a combi-melta shot? You get many more Melta shots from a unit of Chosen, but hey, like you said no one cares how you play.

Well, maybe we do care how you play because considering that would be insightful. You may have a good idea, but more likely we will simply learn from your mistakes. If you're ignoring the utility of Chaos Dreadnoughts, and in favour of such one-note units as "Termicide" Terminator squads, then you probably don't consider the synergy between units unless it's shoved in your face like the Lash of Submission.

The real utility of Chaos Dreadnoughts is supporting another squad, such as Chaos Terminators, Chosen Chaos Space Marines, or Chaos Space Marines. The Chaos Dreadnought acts as close support with its heavy weapons while closing, and then adds its weight to combat, holding up the enemy if the assault goes wrong, and distracting enemy Power Fists and mashing enemy characters if it goes well.

Have a Dreadnought advance in tandem with a Land Raider full of Terminators, or have them advance in front of Rhinos carrying Chaos Space Marines, use them to run interference with units trying to capture or contest objectives, and to tie up the enemy while your workhorse units mop up.

The fact that you cannot see their utility merely indicates something about you, not about their lack of utility. Chaos Dreadnoughts are not only viable, but great units for their points when you play by the rules.

Funny you wish to go after my credibility. Well here you go, Ill break this down nice and simple for you:

-It doesnt matter how you play the dreadnought rule. It is NOT clear because you rotate in the shooting phase. What is clear is that there are people (ie. most) who play it where it can turn around and shoot your own units. Whether or not you play it that way or not does not matter unless you play exclusively with a group of friends. There WILL be times people confront you, and there WILL be times you dont get your way. It is best to assume the worst case scenario so you are not left out of luck. By taking CCWs and assuming you wont get your way, you know 100% what to expect out of them.

-Taking a plasma cannon makes the dreadnought "ok" at shooting and "ok" at close combat. 1 weapons destroyed and thats the end of shooting if youre too far back, or the end of a dangerous CC unit. If you are shooting you are not running at your opponent (or smoking yourself), leaving you 6" behind rhinos each turn. Either go dual shots or dual close combat, doing both makes for a near useless 100+ point unit.

-Termicide waste of points? Your credibility is thrown out the window. 105 points for 3 TEQs anywhere on the board with 3 melta shots is a near guarantee that youre taking down a tank. Taking down a Leman Russ or 2 gives you so many points back for your 105 point investment it's silly. Chosen with meltas are no where near as good. Nearly 200 points for a unit randomly coming in from one of the sides. You better hope that your opponent has tanks within 12" of the side you come in on, otherwise you are getting shot up - something terminators dont have to deal with for 100 points less.

-I dont use lash, and I have an entire heavy support topic talking about synergy. The simple fact is however, some units just do things better than others, and unless if those "others" are for less points, there is no reason to take them. Termicide > Melta Chosen. Fact.

-Your dreadnought wont be in support of CC units because you were too busy shooting one small blast template plasma cannon (woo hoo?) in the turns you should have been running.

-Land Raider with terminators...I see you do not know how to use points effectively.

-You take extra armour on our dreadnought (a 1/6 it will do you any good), and again, you talk like Im the one that has no idea what Im talking about.

Believe me, your "tactics" you bring up speak for themselves. You really are in no position telling people theyre wrong or going after their credibility.

I take it reading isn't your strong suite. I managed to post a rather comprehensive post about why the manner in which Fire Frenzy might be disputed, and what to do if it is.

Not that you care, but the way I always play is there is a dispute you play it to your least advantage. That's the way a good sportsman plays. I don't push "my way" on anyone - it's why I used to get such good sportsmanship scores back when I went to tournaments. But I do insist on people getting the rules right when it matters, such as when offering tactical advice in discussion forums: different game, different rules.

But back to tactics: A Chaos Dreadnought should always be advancing, and a Chaos Dreadnought advancing 6" a turn so it can fire its weapons will, on average, move at the same rate as an assault carrier like a Land Raider. That's because anyone who simply dives their assault carriers into combat without softening up the enemy with Lascannon fire is wasting a Land Raider's potential.

Taking a pair of Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons and no Extra Armour is a very high risk strategy: every turn that Dreadnought is not moving is a wasted turn, and if it's immobilized, you might as well write it off. If you don't take Extra Armour, you double the possibility of any damaging hit immobilizing the Dreadnought for a turn, a turn in which the enemy can move away or destroy it from range.

Likewise taking two shooting weapons is risky, because a Dreadnought that hangs back will find friendly units in its 45 degree lines of sight, and will have them as targets if it Fire Frenzies and will waste its firepower if it goes into a Blood Rage, as well as putting itself out of position (i.e.: nearer to the enemy).

By taking a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon you give the Dreadnought some significant close combat ability - S10 I4 A4 Power weapon attacks is nothing to sneeze at - as well as something to do as it advances and/or is immobilized. The Extra Armour keeps it moving towards the enemy even if it cannot fire, and a Chaos Dreadnought should always be closing with an enemy.

That's why they synergize well with Chaos Space Marines, because they can shoot while both units advance, charge when they both charge, hand out the pain in close combat when the enemy has their hands full with Chaos Space Marines, and hold the line when Chaos Space Marines need to extract themselves from a losing proposition. So keep them moving, keep them beside and slightly forward of whatever unit they're escorting, and you'll get a better bang for your buck than 125pts and under of other Elite choices.

As for why Termicide sucks, let's start another thread on that, shall we? Let's just say it has something to do with reliability and the perils of half-arsed Deep Strikes... Terminators in Land Raiders and Chosen are, at the least, reliable.

As for credibility: Why should I bother to attack that when you're hanging yourself perfectly well by confusing your own opinions with the facts. I'm just attacking the narrow opinion that Chaos Dreadnoughts aren't viable Elite units. That fact that you appear to hold that opinion as fact is irrelevant.

In low-point games they are a godsend, put as much as your army in reserve and on the opposite side of the board as possible, and run your dread as gun + CCW, it will WRECK. FACE. because if it rolls the shooting frenzy result, you get to shoot the enemy, and if it rolls the fleet result, you get a potential 18" charge range. The fleet roll is the worst result, and a good argument could be made for shooty dread, turning it into a godly gunboat + bully unit.

*sigh*

I dont know how to read even though you repeated exactly what I said...

Talking to someone 2 seconds before a game does nothing to help you, now youre 1-3 plasma cannons down if he rules otherwise, and have to bring oblits to make it up, which means dropping something else, and so on. You cant build a list around units you arnt even sure are going to work according to plan (and I dont mean their crazed roll) if you want to do well.

Two shooting weapons is risky because they will blow your own units to kingdom come when they turn around and blow them up.

They dont synergize with anything. Just buy an obliterator and a half if youre going to sit back and shoot. Cheaper, harder to kill (due to longer range), 2 wounds, and so on. sitting in the middle of the field halfway inbetween your HS choices (stationary) and your troops in CC (moved 12" a turn instead of 6) does nothing. How can they charge when the CSM charge? That makes no sense when the rhino is moving 2x your speed.

Oh wait, a good army wont run in into the safety of CC without a dreadnought (which is too busy shooting instead of moving forward), so instead theyll take in twice as many shots! GREAT strategy! Lets not get into CC against those guardsmen! I mean, CC is just CSM's strong suite...

You dont even use a Land Raider to its potential. Youre moving up the board 6" a turn so you can fire 1 lascannon a turn? WTF? Youre taking 2x as long and getting shot at 2x as much because you want to shoot your 1 plasma cannon and 1 lascannon while you run up the board.

I...I honestly dont know what to say. These have got to be the most counter productive tactics Ive ever seen. To sum it up:

-Dreadnought: Take a plasma cannon even though you can annihilate your own troops. Dont run because getting into CC is... bad (?) and killing that 1 guy in cover is far more important. Also, take armour for that 17% chance it actually matters (after getting through AV12, and a 4+ cover save).
-Landraiders : Fill them up with termies for a ~500 point sink unit, but dont rush into combat, only move 6" to shoot 1 lascannon a turn.
-Terminators: Make them large assault oriented instead of small, deadly shooty units that are actually effective (and are cheap). Dont deepstrike because that may be dangerous, so just ignore that advantage.
-Chosen: Better than termies even though they cost 2x as much, are random, and any enemy outside of 12" gets to shoot them for a turn (or 2 or 3) before they get to shoot back.


Really, people can judge for themselves about this. Thats about 1000 points spent right there before HQs, troops and heavy support, so they can keep that in mind. Imo, thats about the least point efficient you can get in this codex (bikes, spawn and possessed come before this though).

Honestly, I can appreciate you trying different tactics and trying to find new combinations in the CSM book. But really, this just isnt the way. These ideas just dont work.

CC dreads get stuck in alot faster if you "run" every turn you are able. Since you didn't take a gun if you run 2x CCW's, you don't ever have to worry about making the choice to fire or run. It's elementary. And I always run extra armor on CC dreads. Run them in pairs, throw a Lash or two around and enjoy the show.

Also, there are instances where your Fire Frenzy may leave you with your dread facing the wrong way with it's @ss open to the enemy on their turn, so if you run them in pairs, you won't usually have them both go crazed, and you can at least try to move the other dread to screen a little bit as it keeps advancing.

Don't forget the Smoke Launchers. It's surprising how easy they are to forget.

My CSM are configured like this:

2 Daemon Princes
2 DNCCW Dreads
2+ Defilers

The Dreads are cheap and synergize with the DPs & Defilers.

JohnHwangDD wrote:My CSM are configured like this:

2 Daemon Princes
2 DNCCW Dreads
2+ Defilers

The Dreads are cheap and synergize with the DPs & Defilers.

That's just how I've started running my Chaos. Don't forget the Greater Demon for extra awesome! All that's left is to quibble about which troops to take.

The problem with the Greater Daemon is he randomly comes in and he can only move 6". Big problem when he comes in turn two and your guys are still on your side of the board.

In my opinion, the Greater Daemon is the most cost effective unit in the codex, even if you tack on the price of the Champion. Even if he does come down on turn 2, he has 4 wounds, T6 and a 4+ invul to keep him safe. Besides, anyone experienced with planning where to set him down will account for that fact when moving potential sacrifices, and he should be in combat by turn 3 regardless.

Night Lords wrote:The problem with the Greater Daemon is he randomly comes in and he can only move 6". Big problem when he comes in turn two and your guys are still on your side of the board.

You can easily mitigate that by placing the unit with the host in a rhino or land raider. The Greater Demon may then deploy within two inches of a hatch, which gives you an awful lot of extra movement (size of the vehicle hull + 2" + base size of the greater demon) and you should have no problem getting him to assault the turn he shows up.

Me and nurglitch agree on something rules related...

I'm scared

What is this, YMDC?

Keep it polite, people. There's no need to troll, inflame or antagonize other posters.

Night Lords, you're the one who started the escalation. Please don't take threads like this personally, and if you disagree with someone, do so in a polite fashion.

Nurglitch, please don't rise to the bait.

Thank you.

I have run multiple chaos dreads with different configurations. Since the 5th edition change from "closest enemy unit" to "closest unit" and a couple of bad experiences, I found myself phasing out the ranged weapons and going--like most of the posters early in this thread--with dual DCCW. Lately I've even been phasing out the heavy flamers too.

So my vote also is for 2-3 dreads with only close combat weapons. Cheap and can't be ignored, and chaos dreads are really better at close combat than shooting anyway.

Their only major weakness is that they're basically useless when immobilized, and that makes them in effect more vulnerable on the vehicle damage table. So on the current damage table it's a 50% on a penetrating or on a glancing 6 the dread is effectively out of the game.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Their only major weakness is that they're basically useless when immobilized, and that makes them in effect more vulnerable on the vehicle damage table. So on the current damage table it's a 50% on a penetrating or on a glancing 6 the dread is effectively out of the game.

All the more reason to keep'em cheap!

Although Extra Armor seems mandatory, and the heavy flamer is only 5 points. Why are you not running the flamer Flave?

Chaos Drednaughts really could use a drop pod (dread claw or whatever). They just scream out to be deep struck.

whitedragon wrote:

All the more reason to keep'em cheap!

Although Extra Armor seems mandatory, and the heavy flamer is only 5 points. Why are you not running the flamer Flave?

Well I run a mech force, and the heavy flamers always seemed to be fire-frenzying my rhinos. The two twin-linked bolters are a lot less likely to hurt my transports.

whitedragon wrote:
Although Extra Armor seems mandatory, and the heavy flamer is only 5 points. Why are you not running the flamer Flave?

I've run lots of dreads at this point, though haven't played with all the fun weapons available - MM seems pretty decent because of the low damage dished out to your own troopers when he freaks and the ultra-cheap points, and I really love autocannons and wouldn't mind having a twin one of those doing stuff - preferring to stick with plasma cannon + ccw or missile launcher + ccw, with heavy flamers and extra armor everywhere. That last combo is really gentle to your own boys, as the dread simply fires off frag twice, wounds less often and then gives 3+ saves anyway.

However in my recent 1850 Redux I'm planning on maxing out on dreads (out of love for the big lugs, mostly), and going plasma cannon + ccw + extra armor on all three. No more heavy flamers, because 2x all those hits is horrific with my armor rolling abilities (read: none), while 2x plasma is survivable when you put them on a lone 1k Son or CSM in cover. The extra armor I always shell out for because if that dread isn't blasting somebody, he better be moving forward full tilt.

I will say however that switching the current Crazed! table for the previous one is in the top ten of my Fix C:Chaos list

- Salvage

Chaos dreads are hit or miss. I remember many a game where they were gunned down the first or second turn. I do remember one game my Chaos dread frenzied forward two turns in a row and got stuck into a squad of Grey Knight terminators killing them all then killed a Space Marine captain and his command squad the very next turn. My defiler smoked a squad of Devs up on a hill all sporting plasma cannons. The Chaos dread was the hero of the match, a one man wrecking crew. If only he could consistently perform at the same level.

I think Chaos dreads need strong support such as fearless terninators. Fearless Chaos terminators aer no longer an option so I don't bother with either anymore. Hopefully we'll see a legion codex towards the end of 2010. Maybe the advent of the new SW will turn the game back around again so it will be worthwhile to field Chaos dreads again.

G