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Autocannons are actually pretty good against T6 Monstrous Creatures. Firstly there's the range. It means you can get an extra turn or two of shooting in, which is important because its the Autocannon's rate of fire where it shines. Two Twin-Linked Autocannons at BS3 will yield something like three hits on average, causing a wound. A potential four wounds with one on average is pretty good if you can have three rounds of firing.

DarkHound wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:it's autocannons are range 72"....that gives it a huge reach on the battlefield...

That you don't need. 48" will cover almost an entire 4x6 board. That 72" is only ever going to be useful in Apoc.

You could put one on high ground it would have coverage of the whole field no questions asked.this would be effective againts most horde armys, like orks trukks AV 10 with red paint job will probly get you about turn 2, so it would be very useful for 72" I personall would rather have full coverage of the board, thats why my basilisk has indirect fire

Fetterkey wrote:pretty much all of DarkHound's counter arguments.

labmouse42 wrote:The hydra is a pretty good weapon. It carries a TL Autocannon with increased range and ability to deny turbo-boosters.
As such, they have all the same advantages of other ACs
* Good against T6 MCs
* Good against bikes -- making them roll saves
* Good on AV10 and AV11
* Good on T3 multiple wounds -- like scarab swarms

I would not take more than 1 heavy support choice of them, but if your looking for some good ranged dakka, they are not a bad investment for the point cost.

Nurglitch wrote:Autocannons are actually pretty good against T6 Monstrous Creatures. Firstly there's the range. It means you can get an extra turn or two of shooting in, which is important because its the Autocannon's rate of fire where it shines. Two Twin-Linked Autocannons at BS3 will yield something like three hits on average, causing a wound. A potential four wounds with one on average is pretty good if you can have three rounds of firing.

That lack of penetration is what hurts your arguments. From top to bottom: without penetration MCs don't have to worry about Autocannons for the same reason Marines don't particularly fear infantry fire. The problem with denying toober boostering cover saves with Autocannons is the vast majority of Bikers are 3+. Great, I don't take a 3+ cover save, but I still take my 3+ armor. The other points are fair, although I don't like factoring in maximum potentials. Yes, a Shoota Boy squad can potentially get 60 hits on, but I'll be long dead before I see a game where it does.

rockmetal_mig wrote:You could put one on high ground it would have coverage of the whole field no questions asked.this would be effective againts most horde armys, like orks trukks AV 10 with red paint job will probly get you about turn 2, so it would be very useful for 72" I personall would rather have full coverage of the board, thats why my basilisk has indirect fire

Again, this is only situationally useful. Infact, the arguement you made doesn't help your case. For starters, you have a hill that provides unrestricted LoS. On my board, and many of the boards I've played on, you don't; there are multi-level buildings scattered across the board. As for your example, the increased range doesn't matter when the enemy is coming towards you.

Darkhound:

Actually you need to consider the average damage results in relation to the maximum damage results (and minimum if it wasn't 0 by default in this game). Hence the fact that a unit of Boyz can potentially fire 60 shots is only important in relation to the fact that a unit of Boyz will hit with 20 on average. The high ratio of shots fired to wounds unsaved favours Autocannons. The average and the good favour the Autocannon, which is compounded by their range.

Hey Darkhound, have you read the WD article for the IG on split deployment? It's the piece where the IG army (with a firebase, doesn't apply to mechvet) divides into a sacrificial flank and a victory flank....the hydra (and other long range weapons) are perfect for the sacrificial flank since their job is to cover the units on the victory flank even if there are enemies heading for them..that's why they are the sacrificial flank...

If you haven't, try to look it up..it's a nice read, and is something I have applied in several games (although my sacrificial flank is not as large as the example, I tend units like the hydra covered by a single IG squad, etc..)...

Fetterkey wrote:This is a surprising thread to me. However, I definitely agree that the Pask Exterminator loadout that DarkHound posted is superior to the Hydras, thanks largely to factors that aren't readily apparent here. While straight math may indicate the Hydras are better, all the intangibles are in favor of the Exterminator. First and foremost, it is *much* more resilient than the Hydras are, which is obviously a big plus. Secondly, we're comparing one tank to three tanks here, which means that the Hydras will either have to take up three slots and stifle other Heavy Support options or else operate in squadrons, which makes them significantly worse, as it means that they will often score "overkills," will distribute hits, and will be destroyed upon Immobilized results. Further, the Exterminator can move and fire at 100% effectiveness, while the Hydras lose more than half their firepower on the move. I would definitely take that Exterminator over 3 Hydras, no questions asked, and I think you've really hit on something valuable here!

If you would take the Exterminator "no questions asked" then I consider you extremely foolish. The Exterminator does have some advantages, but the hydra has many more. The hydra is better at doing its job, and has 72" range to protect it. You are wrong when you say that it will likely overkill, it will overkill only as much as the executioner. The hydra is additionally greatly superior to the Exterminator against AV 10, open topped, or infantry.

Exterminator pros:
AV 14 front
can move and fire
costs slightly less
10% better against AV 12
more maneuverable (1 tank vs 3)

Hydras pros:
72" range
30% better against AV 11
75% better against AV 10
ignores skimmer cover

So in the end, if you are having trouble protecting your 72" range from shots from the front, first off you are doing something terribly wrong. If you can't fix this, take the Exterminator. If you feel like you really need to maneuver with your LRAT, take the exterminator. If you don't think that you will ever shoot at infantry, AV 10, AV 11, or skimmers, take the exterminator. If you would rather get the job done 30% to 75% better, from 72" away, against the targets that you need to take out, take the hydras.

In conclusion, if you would take the exterminator "no questions asked" you are a fool, who cannot see facts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:Autocannons aren't that great against Toughness 6 MCs, especially those that are packing 3+ armor, like many Tyranids. They are ideal against targets with toughness 5 or lower and light vehicles. Autocannons are also extremely strong against Imperial Guard heavy weapon teams.

Yes, ACs are not terribly great against MCs. Missile launchers, which aren't great at anything in particular up until now, are good against MCs, and tyranids in general.

Nurglitch wrote:Autocannons are actually pretty good against T6 Monstrous Creatures. Firstly there's the range. It means you can get an extra turn or two of shooting in, which is important because its the Autocannon's rate of fire where it shines. Two Twin-Linked Autocannons at BS3 will yield something like three hits on average, causing a wound. A potential four wounds with one on average is pretty good if you can have three rounds of firing.

Really it depends on what MC you're shooting at, what kind of armor save they have, and what kind of invulnerable save they have. Let me crunch some numbers for you. Not gonna do the method that accounts for point cost because it's more complicated, but rather just show 1 vendetta vs. 2 hydras. Keep in mind that the hydras in this example cost more and so when they come out even that means the vendetta is actually ahead.

Wraithlord: (high toughness decent save)
Vendetta avg unsaved wounds - 1.5
2x Hydras - .67
Advantage strongly Vendetta

Daemon Prince: (low toughness invulnerable save)
Vendetta - 1.25
2x Hydras - 1.67
Advantage minorly Hydras

Carnifex with 3+ save: (medium toughness decent save)
Vendetta - 1.86
2x Hydras - 1.33
Advantage majorly Vendetta
When you get to a 2+ save the advantage skews even more towards the Vendetta.

Basically it boils down to vendettas working much better on any MC that lacks an invulnerable save. 3 lascannons generally outperform 4 autocannons for hunting MCs. MLs work better as well because of the higher strength and most importantly the AP.

ph34r wrote:So in the end, if you are having trouble protecting your 72" range from shots from the front, first off you are doing something terribly wrong. If you can't fix this, take the Exterminator. If you feel like you really need to maneuver with your LRAT, take the exterminator. If you don't think that you will ever shoot at infantry, AV 10, AV 11, or skimmers, take the exterminator. If you would rather get the job done 30% to 75% better, from 72" away, against the targets that you need to take out, take the hydras.

In conclusion, if you would take the exterminator "no questions asked" you are a fool, who cannot see facts.

And I need to stress that 72" range is not a real benefit over 48". The only time that 72" is going to help is when you are packed in a corner of the board firing across to the other corner. If your opponent isn't smart enough to move his unit the 6" it takes to get his 48" gun into range, then you'll probably win no matter what. On top of this, I'll mention my aforementioned LoS issue.

Hydras are not small, and they will come under fire from any capable opponent. Hydras are effectively dead on a 3+ from a Pen, which isn't hard to achieve against AV12. 3 Hydras are a large investment, and so are not going to get ignored. Your opponent doesn't have to dedicated alot to cripple or destroy the Hydras. So while you may get the job done 30%-75% better for the first turn or second turn, you'll start losing firepower quickly. The Exterminator, on the other hand, is vastly more difficult to disable. You actually need to kill it to make it stop being a threat, and you'll only do that after getting through AV14,13. The offensive capabilities of are slightly in favour of the Hydra, but there is absolutely no contest in terms of defence. Hydras are not durable in any sense of the word, while a Leman Russ is the embodyment of it.

3 hydras for me is too much...at the most 2....and hydras will work only in an av12 spam list....with fewer vehicles, definitely a russ is survivable...

As I play av12 spam, the hydra has survived in most games, and the basilisk and the manticore are better targets, but even they tend to survive too, as opponents like to focus on the forward moving chimeras, as well as outflanking skimmers, so these are the ones that usually fall per game (but surprisingly 2-3 chimeras usually survive..the vehicle damage table is really more lenient in this edition)..

72" is definitely a benefit, and one that I've used to my advantage effectively. With such a long reach I can safely put the Hydra another 12+ inches away from my opponent, and its low cost means that I don't care if he goes out of the way (something he will almost assuredly have to do) to kill it. If I spend 75 points to burn 1/5 of my opponent's movement phases for X number of units, I've made return on my investment.

72" means you can take a relatively cheap unit that is quite capable of reaping a tally amongst lightly armored transports if left unmolested, and deploy it far from your main force [in a table corner]. Since the majority of armies don't have a lot of 48" shooting, or rather they "prefer" shorter engagements, to take the Hydra on they have to go far out of their way to do it, or ignore it.

Similarly, nothing "requires" you to take 3 Hydras in one squadron. It's quite capable to make a MechVet list that doesn't need all of its HS slots. The advantage of the Hydra over the Paskterminator is that Hydras can be parcelled out into smaller units that remain largely as effective as the whole. One Hydra corner camping can still reliably take on a rhino. Pask is going to WTFoverkill the rhino for 3x the points.

True, Pask will do better versus MCs. But the IG list is filled with high strength low ap weaponry and HS slots are adding redundancy, not acting as your primary monster killer.

To distill my argument down into a single core point, the Hydra can do something that Pask can never do: cost 75 points.

Am I the only one who isn't getting why 72" on a 4x6 board is unimportant, short of both armies deploying very awkwardly and hoping there is no terrain?

@Sourclams: Which is why I like the Hydra in low games. However even at 1500, you have the 200 points to spend on bigger things.

As far as slots go, we have to argue that they take up the same slots. We are trying to argue if one is better than the other in any given army, and having all of your Heavy Support slots free is something uncommon for IG. We need to limit the variables as much as we can. While I agknowledge and agree with your point, it is moot.

Cambak wrote:Lets do the 3 squadron of Hydra against say.... a squad of 5 Eldar jet bikes, which I think are AV 10 or 12.

Eldar Jetbikes are T4 Sv3+. Pretty much everything you say from this point is also wrong. The Hydra's weapons are twin linked, we're talking about the Exterminator not the Executioner, Turboboost is a 3+ cover save which doesn't matter because neither tank ignores an Eldar Jetbike's 3+ armor save, and if you were shooting at fast skimmers the SMF save would be 4+. Calculations using the correct vehicles and stats have already been done in any case.

Thank you for contributing.

72" range is not much better than 48" range unless you get a Spearhead deployment. Most ranges past 48" are academic on a standard table, since the opponent can deploy across from them. AV 14 front and no squadron rules outweighs the somewhat better performance of the Hydras in my book. The Leman Russ Exterminator also looks cooler and has a smaller footprint, which should help your deployment. sourclams has a good point when he says that Hydras don't always come in threes, but if you are considering taking a full Hydra squadron, the Leman Russ Exterminator seems like a much better option.

Fetterkey wrote:72" range is not much better than 48" range unless you get a Spearhead deployment. Most ranges past 48" are academic on a standard table, since the opponent can deploy across from them. AV 14 front and no squadron rules outweighs the somewhat better performance of the Hydras in my book. The Leman Russ Exterminator also looks cooler and has a smaller footprint, which should help your deployment. sourclams has a good point when he says that Hydras don't always come in threes, but if you are considering taking a full Hydra squadron, the Leman Russ Exterminator seems like a much better option.

In fact, so far I have just taken them in a unit of 1....even at 1850.....together with a manticore and a bassie....

DarkHound wrote:And I need to stress that 72" range is not a real benefit over 48". The only time that 72" is going to help is when you are packed in a corner of the board firing across to the other corner. If your opponent isn't smart enough to move his unit the 6" it takes to get his 48" gun into range, then you'll probably win no matter what. On top of this, I'll mention my aforementioned LoS issue.

Hydras are not small, and they will come under fire from any capable opponent. Hydras are effectively dead on a 3+ from a Pen, which isn't hard to achieve against AV12. 3 Hydras are a large investment, and so are not going to get ignored. Your opponent doesn't have to dedicated alot to cripple or destroy the Hydras. So while you may get the job done 30%-75% better for the first turn or second turn, you'll start losing firepower quickly. The Exterminator, on the other hand, is vastly more difficult to disable. You actually need to kill it to make it stop being a threat, and you'll only do that after getting through AV14,13. The offensive capabilities of are slightly in favour of the Hydra, but there is absolutely no contest in terms of defence. Hydras are not durable in any sense of the word, while a Leman Russ is the embodyment of it.

You are wrong! Here is why:
72" is a benefit, of that there is no doubt. Behond, a board containing your hydras parked safely in a corner:

The hydras can remain out of range of anything the opponent has while shooting them, requiring the opponent to come to them. The pask tank has to move forward, putting it in range of normal anti tank weapons, and closer to melta gun range.

Further, I expand my pros list:

Exterminator pros:
AV 14 front
can move and fire
costs slightly less
10% better against AV 12
more maneuverable (1 tank vs 3)

Hydras pros:
72" range
30% better against AV 11
75% better against AV 10
ignores skimmer cover
does not die to one meltagun
is not rendered useless by one shaken/stunned
is not rendered useless by one weapon destroyed

All you have to do to neurtalize the exterminator is throw a random shot at it in hopes of glancing it. A shaken/stunned/weapon destroyed is all you need. The hydra is not so vulnerable. As to a previous post of "3+ on the pen table to kill a hydra" this is so extremely untrue it is laughable. A 4+ kills a hydra, a 3 reduces the main firepower of the squadron by 1/6, which is very much not "effectively dead". The exterminator on the other hand IS effectively dead on a 3, 5, or 6, as the main weapon is just one weapon, as opposed to two weapons each across 3 tanks. Pen the exterminator? half the time you render it useless. Pen a hydra? Half the time you reduce the squadrons firepower by 1/3, and 1/6 the time you reduce the firepower by 1/6.
And, 5/6 of the time (all but immobilized) on a glance you take the exterminator out of action for a turn, and 5/6 of the time (all but immobilized again) on a pen you do the same, with 3 of those 5 possibilities negating the exterminator, permanently.

In conclusion, the exterminator is more vulnerable when penned than the hydra squadron.

DarkHound wrote:Am I the only one who isn't getting why 72" on a 4x6 board is unimportant, short of both armies deploying very awkwardly and hoping there is no terrain?

How many deployments do you see with both armies spread out in Pitched Battle formation across the entire table? None? Then yes, 72" is an advantage, I have used it to my advantage, and if it weren't for my opponent being out of range with his 48" guns it would have died. But the range wasn't there, and it didn't get touched.

@Sourclams: Which is why I like the Hydra in low games. However even at 1500, you have the 200 points to spend on bigger things.

No list, Guard included, has enough points to just throw in a 225 point unit.

As far as slots go, we have to argue that they take up the same slots. We are trying to argue if one is better than the other in any given army, and having all of your Heavy Support slots free is something uncommon for IG. We need to limit the variables as much as we can. While I agknowledge and agree with your point, it is moot.

You're missing my point. You can spend as little as 75 points and add a Hydra. You can't say that about Pask in anything. Against light transports, 3 Hydras or Pask is probably gross overkill and therefore inefficient. The argument for me isn't whether one superunit or another superunit can gross overkill better, it's whether the points dedicated would be more useful parcelled out into a package that could do the same job with more utility. A hydra + a Vendetta, for example, will still crush the rhino, perhaps without requiring both units, and give me more total firepower in my list.

The Hydra can be parcelled out like that. Paskterminator is a full package.

Besides, for the same points cost as an exterminator, I'd get a regular russ instead....GW should have lowered the points cost of the exterminator vs the regular russ like in the 3rd ed dex...even just 10 points lower....

sourclams wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Am I the only one who isn't getting why 72" on a 4x6 board is unimportant, short of both armies deploying very awkwardly and hoping there is no terrain?

How many deployments do you see with both armies spread out in Pitched Battle formation across the entire table? None? Then yes, 72" is an advantage, I have used it to my advantage, and if it weren't for my opponent being out of range with his 48" guns it would have died. But the range wasn't there, and it didn't get touched.

@Sourclams: Which is why I like the Hydra in low games. However even at 1500, you have the 200 points to spend on bigger things.

No list, Guard included, has enough points to just throw in a 225 point unit.

As far as slots go, we have to argue that they take up the same slots. We are trying to argue if one is better than the other in any given army, and having all of your Heavy Support slots free is something uncommon for IG. We need to limit the variables as much as we can. While I agknowledge and agree with your point, it is moot.

You're missing my point. You can spend as little as 75 points and add a Hydra. You can't say that about Pask in anything. Against light transports, 3 Hydras or Pask is probably gross overkill and therefore inefficient. The argument for me isn't whether one superunit or another superunit can gross overkill better, it's whether the points dedicated would be more useful parcelled out into a package that could do the same job with more utility. A hydra + a Vendetta, for example, will still crush the rhino, perhaps without requiring both units, and give me more total firepower in my list.

The Hydra can be parcelled out like that. Paskterminator is a full package.

i completely agree. iT's much easier to pull 75 points to add a Hydra, whilst i find it alot harder to scrounge up 200+ Pask with whatever you throw him in.

ph34r wrote:All you have to do to neurtalize the exterminator is throw a random shot at it in hopes of glancing it. A shaken/stunned/weapon destroyed is all you need. The hydra is not so vulnerable. As to a previous post of "3+ on the pen table to kill a hydra" this is so extremely untrue it is laughable. A 4+ kills a hydra, a 3 reduces the main firepower of the squadron by 1/6, which is very much not "effectively dead". The exterminator on the other hand IS effectively dead on a 3, 5, or 6, as the main weapon is just one weapon, as opposed to two weapons each across 3 tanks. Pen the exterminator? half the time you render it useless. Pen a hydra? Half the time you reduce the squadrons firepower by 1/3, and 1/6 the time you reduce the firepower by 1/6.
And, 5/6 of the time (all but immobilized) on a glance you take the exterminator out of action for a turn, and 5/6 of the time (all but immobilized again) on a pen you do the same, with 3 of those 5 possibilities negating the exterminator, permanently.

In conclusion, the exterminator is more vulnerable when penned than the hydra squadron.

I was incorrect about the 3+ kill, because the Hydra has two guns instead of one. The Paskterminator is also not dead on a 3, however. Calling it dead when it is still wondering around with a S10 Lascannon is foolish.

You talk about penning an Exterminator and a Hydra as though they were equal. The Hydras will be penned several more times before a pen or even a glance is suffered by the Exterminator. Penning an Exterminator is much more devastating, yes, but it is vastly less likely to happen.

As for the 72" issue, the only time you'd get LoS like that is when you have a hill in your back corner and there is no terrain on the board except baracades and craters. In a real game, the extra range is too situational.

sourclams wrote:The argument for me isn't whether one superunit or another superunit can gross overkill better, it's whether the points dedicated would be more useful parcelled out into a package that could do the same job with more utility.

Taken out of context that was hilarious. In context, I thought that was exactly what we were debating.

I was incorrect about the 3+ kill, because the Hydra has two guns instead of one. The Paskterminator is also not dead on a 3, however. Calling it dead when it is still wondering around with a S10 Lascannon is foolish.

You talk about penning an Exterminator and a Hydra as though they were equal. The Hydras will be penned several more times before a pen or even a glance is suffered by the Exterminator. Penning an Exterminator is much more devastating, yes, but it is vastly less likely to happen.

I would not care about a str 10 lascannon wandering around at lumbering behemoth speed.
Exterminators and Hydras get killed just the same by some of the most popular tank killers: meltas and close combat. If you only consider long range anti tank, the hydra is perhaps twice as likely to suffer a result, but there are three times as many to ablate results. With the exterminator each result is 3x as brutal as against the hydras.

DarkHound wrote:

sourclams wrote:The argument for me isn't whether one superunit or another superunit can gross overkill better, it's whether the points dedicated would be more useful parcelled out into a package that could do the same job with more utility.

Taken out of context that was hilarious. In context, I thought that was exactly what we were debating.

Hrm. Apologies if I misunderstood the main points up until now, but I truly didn't see that debate before I began posting.

sourclams wrote:Hrm. Apologies if I misunderstood the main points up until now, but I truly didn't see that debate before I began posting.

Maybe that is what we are supposed to be debating. That's not what I was debating, so that might explain some things. I'll just wait and see. However, I do agree with you. For 75 points the Hydra is very effecient. What I don't agree with is that 3 Hydras for 225 points is more effecient than another 225 point behemoth (no pun intended).

ph34r wrote:I would not care about a str 10 lascannon wandering around at lumbering behemoth speed.
Exterminators and Hydras get killed just the same by some of the most popular tank killers: meltas and close combat. If you only consider long range anti tank, the hydra is perhaps twice as likely to suffer a result, but there are three times as many to ablate results. With the exterminator each result is 3x as brutal as against the hydras.

When I said "wandering around" I meant shooting. You should care about S10 shots at your armor.

If it comes down to this, the Exterminator has the advantage, however slight, just because of its footprint.

ph34r wrote:72" is a benefit, of that there is no doubt. Behond, a board containing your hydras parked safely in a corner:

The hydras can remain out of range of anything the opponent has while shooting them, requiring the opponent to come to them. The pask tank has to move forward, putting it in range of normal anti tank weapons, and closer to melta gun range.

In a Spearhead mission, this would be strong, but such missions only pop up a third of the time. Normally, the opponent can simply deploy across from you and thus engage your Hydras with long range anti-tank, most of which has a 48" range. Corner deployment also renders you vulnerable to outflankers.

I consider the Pask Exterminator to be better than 3 Hydras. In my opinion, such units are wasted against AV 10, so the Hydra squadron's superiority there is of little important. The Hydras are better against AV 11, but not by enough to make a huge difference, since they can "overkill" their targets and the Pask tank should be strong enough to deal with transports anyway. The Pask tank is better against AV 12+. This isn't as good as it sounds, since AV 13/14 targets are nonideal, but the extra power against AV 12 helps. I'd consider the firepower issue to largely be a wash. Overall I would rather have maneuverability and AV 14 than AV 12 and more vehicles with which to distribute hits. When you consider that the Pask Exterminator costs 10 points less, is one model instead of three, and generally looks cooler, the choice seems clear enough to me. Whether you want to take either option depends on the overall composition of your list, but assuming you do, I favor the Pask Exterminator.

sourclams wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Am I the only one who isn't getting why 72" on a 4x6 board is unimportant, short of both armies deploying very awkwardly and hoping there is no terrain?

How many deployments do you see with both armies spread out in Pitched Battle formation across the entire table? None? Then yes, 72" is an advantage, I have used it to my advantage, and if it weren't for my opponent being out of range with his 48" guns it would have died. But the range wasn't there, and it didn't get touched.

I play horde Orks, and I definitely spread across the table. In higher-points games like 2k or 2.5k, pretty much everyone but deepstriking armies or terminator armies deploys widely by necessity. Even at 1850 where I usually play armies tend to occupy a fairly large chunk of board.

sourclams wrote:
To distill my argument down into a single core point, the Hydra can do something that Pask can never do: cost 75 points.

This is really what I see as the crux of the issue. Hydras have a role. There are issues that can push them one way or the other, but if you need what they do, they're a cheap way to get it done. Not the only way, but certainly valid and if you need what they do in your army then they're a good option. If you have the heavy support slot free, need light armor-killing, and have the space to fit the footprint of however many you wish to take, they're solid. The higher points you go, the less likely that you have the heavy support free or the space available.

For what it's worth, with my tourney army I love seeing hydras on the table because I know that my opponent just wasted however many points because they're effective against exactly nothing in that army (nob bikers and boyz.) That's an unusual state, however. Most of the time it's very valuable to have multishot strength 7 weapons.

Hydras are good, but that's assuming that you don't need the heavy support roles for other options. You can easily take autocannon teams in your troop etc. choices but you can't take LR's and Artillery in other Force Orgs.

Oh, did I mention I really don't like autocannons?

DarkHound wrote:Oh, did I mention I really don't like autocannons?

so there's no bias in your arguement then!

Fetterkey wrote:In a Spearhead mission, this would be strong, but such missions only pop up a third of the time. Normally, the opponent can simply deploy across from you and thus engage your Hydras with long range anti-tank, most of which has a 48" range. Corner deployment also renders you vulnerable to outflankers.

I consider the Pask Exterminator to be better than 3 Hydras. In my opinion, such units are wasted against AV 10, so the Hydra squadron's superiority there is of little important. The Hydras are better against AV 11, but not by enough to make a huge difference, since they can "overkill" their targets and the Pask tank should be strong enough to deal with transports anyway. The Pask tank is better against AV 12+. This isn't as good as it sounds, since AV 13/14 targets are nonideal, but the extra power against AV 12 helps. I'd consider the firepower issue to largely be a wash. Overall I would rather have maneuverability and AV 14 than AV 12 and more vehicles with which to distribute hits. When you consider that the Pask Exterminator costs 10 points less, is one model instead of three, and generally looks cooler, the choice seems clear enough to me. Whether you want to take either option depends on the overall composition of your list, but assuming you do, I favor the Pask Exterminator.

The hydras are vulnerable to a wider range of weapons, but less vulnerable to the effects. They are more capable of outranging opponents and staying in cover. Exterminator is less vulnerable to some weapons, such as ACs and MLs, but one glance or pen ruins a turn for the exterminator. The exterminator is more in danger of close range weapons and is less likely to have the advantage of cover.
The hydras are, including glances, probably around 1/3 better for their cost than the exterminator against AV 11, and equal against AV 12. Against AV 10 they are significantly better, but for the sake of the argument I will throw out AV 10 because you consider it too much of an overkill, which it may well be. I however will also throw out 13 and 14 because they are too far out of viable range. This leads the hydras to take a solid victory against AV 11, and a tie against AV 12.

So far, that's about even on vulnerability, and the hydra leads on firepower with certainty.

As for maneuverability, the exterminator probably wins out. The exterminator can only move 6+d6" at maximum, but is more effective at moving and firing, and more maneuverable due to a smaller overall size. The hydra can move faster but sacrifices firepower significantly.

Against infantry, there is no contest. The Hydras are so much better that it is laughable:
vs marines/MEQ, 3.5 killed by hydra. 1.25 killed by exterminator with cover, 1.55 killed by exterminator no cover
vs guard/nids/orks/whatever, 5.25 killed by hydra with cover, 10.5 no cover. 1.75 killed by exterminator with cover, 3.5 no cover.

Hydra is nearly three times as good as exterminator vs infantry, whether it is guard or marines.

In the end, the Exterminator is not outright worse than the hydra. However it is more definitely not outright better, and such statements as "no questions asked" are ridiculous and only serve to weaken arguments.
Hydras win in firepower against tanks, and win by a large margin against infantry.
Hydras and Exterminators are weak in different ways against anti tank.
Exterminators are more maneuverable.

It is also worth considering what other vehicles you have in your list and what you are facing. If you have many other AV 12 vehicles it is worth trying to swamp your opponent in AV 12, as AV 14 will be targeted by different weapons as AV 12. If you are running heavy AV 14, take more of it, because lighter weapons will not be effective and heavy guns will be harder pressed. The key is target saturation, if you have enough of something your opponent will run out of weapons to kill that type of unit.

Oh, did I mention I really don't like autocannons?

I am all too aware. I was there. Autocannons, lascannons, and meltaguns form the holy trinity of tank killing weapons. Giving up autocannons leaves a hole in your defense.

Culler wrote:
Really it depends on what MC you're shooting at, what kind of armor save they have, and what kind of invulnerable save they have. Let me crunch some numbers for you. Not gonna do the method that accounts for point cost because it's more complicated, but rather just show 1 vendetta vs. 2 hydras. Keep in mind that the hydras in this example cost more and so when they come out even that means the vendetta is actually ahead.

Those are good numbers Culler.
I am curious to know what the results are if you grant a 4+ cover save vs. the Vendetta shots. In other words, when shooting at a Carnifex that is screened by other 'nids, what are the odds like?

Thank you for all the replies.

The 72 inch range of the Hydra is pretty real in spearhead I've had games on vassal where my opponent hugged his corner and I couldn't shoot him right away.

Well I'm looking to flesh out my 1750 Guard list to 2k.
list is at the top of this thread
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/270950.page
for reference.
So one of the things I was thinking of doing was adding two Hydras to supplement the long range anti transport because Vendettas although good get shot ALOT and get shaken and destroyed. Single las cannons backed by plasma in 24. in Vets are ok but not that great. You want to kill transports early before they move things around so Hydras seem good as they good at killing A10-11.

However I could go with 3 Vendettas instead of 2 and put a Manticore in the 3rd Heavy Slot which is good vs AV14 and hordes as well as insta kills warriors and nobs.

Why I was considering Hydras was I feel reallly outgunned by lists like Maximum Overdrive Space Wolf las/plas Razorback spam. The Hydras really good vs them.