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Debating if I should be spending the time and money to convert some Hydras. Hydras are good at killing av 10 skimmers and Rhinos along with skimmers moving fast but so are Vendettas and those are transports and are ap2 for killing termies and have strength 8+ for insta kills on nobs or oblits.

Hydras also compete with Manticores and the Executioner for Heavy Support slots. Been running Manticore and Executioner and they both are really awesome.

With the coming of Nids Hydras don't seem all that good vs nids they don't have strength 8 to insta kill the multi wound toughness 4 stuff, or have ap3 to get through MC 3+ saves and there are better ways to kill little bugs.

The squadron is pretty bad when getting assaulted andif Hydras want to use their full fire power they can't move.

For 75 points it's hard to go wrong with the Hydra. It is an awesome gun carriage.

I like hydras in lower point games but they're generally not worth the heavy support slot you lose to me. They are almost as effective as lootas for the points and much more reliable and so are decent to have around for killing AV 10. Doing the math hydras are 150 points to get a penetrating hit on average vs. AV 12 and 75 for any roll on the vehicle damage table. Vendettas are 115.6 points to get a penetrating hit and 87.5 points to get any roll on the table. Against AV 10 hydras are 50 points per penetrating hit and 37.9 points for any roll on the vehicle damage table while vendettas are 69.4 points per penetrating hit and 57.8 points for any roll on the table.

There is quite a bit of math that went on there, formula going: (cost of shooting thing)/(number of shots)/(rate of hitting, .75 for both in this case)/(rate of getting result, so for the manticore this was .5 to get a penetrating hit on AV 10)

As can be seen above, the hydra is better for its points at killing AV 10 while the vendetta is better for its points for killing AV 12. There is more to it than just that however. Hydras ignore cover saves from moving fast and from turbo-boosting, but there are only 2 units that ignoring turbo-boosting is a benefit for killing: deffkoptas and marine scout bikes(I think). Everything else has a 3+ save. It takes warbikers down to using their 4+ natural cover save instead of their 3+ turbo save but again, not a common thing. Vendettas on the other hand can move rapidly, carry troops, aren't open-topped, can outflank, are better armored, and don't occupy a heavy support slot.

For my money and points, vendettas are vastly superior.

I'll just say that an Exterminator with Pask and a Lascannon hull-mount is as effective as 3 Hydras for 10 points less, and is more durable. It is less effective against AV10, but more effective against anything else.

CULLER- IT ALSO KICKS VENDETTA BUM

yes the hydra is worth its points

EDIT:
well ok then

the main reason for the hydra is that imperial guard forces spend most of their time fighting other imperial guard forces so it is there to counter the new valks/vendettas

this is where it truly shines it is most useful against those and speeders(i am sure elder/dark elder also have fast skimmers which it would work equally well against)

croggy wrote:CULLER- IT ALSO KICKS VENDETTA BUM

yes the hydra is worth its points

Truly a well-considered and reasoned reply. The internet is a better place for it.

Culler wrote:

croggy wrote:CULLER- IT ALSO KICKS VENDETTA BUM

yes the hydra is worth its points

Truly a well-considered and reasoned reply. The internet is a better place for it.

see, it's this kind of lovE that makes Dakka such a warm, special place!

OT
i'd say yes they are worth it.

croggy wrote:
the main reason for the hydra is that imperial guard forces spend most of their time fighting other imperial guard forces so it is there to counter the new valks/vendettas

this is where it truly shines it is most useful against those and speeders(i am sure elder/dark elder also have fast skimmers which it would work equally well against)

Indeed when I ran my calculations with a 5+ cover save from moving fast factored in, the hydra outperforms the vendetta at 150 points for a pen vs. 173.6 from the vendetta. Against AV 10 dark eldar skimmers moving fast or SM land speeders, the hydra outshines the vendetta even more. I'd still personally take the vendetta because it's more effective against other valks/vendettas when they're not moving fast than the hydra as well as for other reasons listed above. The hydra does have its niche, it's just not one that comes up against most armies and then typically only once or twice per game do those skimmers move fast, typically 0 times for vendettas and maybe once or twice for valks.

alarmingrick wrote:
i'd say yes they are worth it.

Is this a poll or a tactical discussion?

but to me with the Vendy have 3 TL lascannons and the Hydra having the 2 TL autocannons i feel they "hunt" different prey. my Vendys go after the heavier armour and move bodies. my Hydras hunt heavy troops, skimmers and transports.

and i'm not saying the OP is wrong, it's just that's how i see it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Culler wrote:

croggy wrote:
the main reason for the hydra is that imperial guard forces spend most of their time fighting other imperial guard forces so it is there to counter the new valks/vendettas

this is where it truly shines it is most useful against those and speeders(i am sure elder/dark elder also have fast skimmers which it would work equally well against)

Indeed when I ran my calculations with a 5+ cover save from moving fast factored in, the hydra outperforms the vendetta at 150 points for a pen vs. 173.6 from the vendetta. Against AV 10 dark eldar skimmers moving fast or SM land speeders, the hydra outshines the vendetta even more. I'd still personally take the vendetta because it's more effective against other valks/vendettas when they're not moving fast than the hydra as well as for other reasons listed above. The hydra does have its niche, it's just not one that comes up against most armies and then typically only once or twice per game do those skimmers move fast, typically 0 times for vendettas and maybe once or twice for valks.

alarmingrick wrote:
i'd say yes they are worth it.

Is this a poll or a tactical discussion?

it's an opiniOn.
i thought that's what was being asked for.

I don't like the Hydras on a medium scale. They are an Apoc unit specifically built for hunting flyers in a game where there are no flyers. When you don't have many points to throw around, they are as good at anti-tank as Griffons are at anti-infantry. At a small scale, their cost effectiveness really shines. Up into the medium (1500-2k) points free up for the more expensive buy-ins that are better than taking more Hydras. In Apoc, they eat Flyers like they were designed to. In short, ignore them outside of Apoc and Combat Patrol.

If you're playing a list that maximizes Chimeras and Fast Attack options, heavy support isn't necessary. In this sort of AV12 predominant list, the Hydra still remains a very viable Heavy choice. Park two in each table corner and dominate the entire map with mass autocannon fire.

I'm no expert on guard as I'm just starting up a new army with them although I am no noob at Warhammer

The Hydra is a cheap and it has the range to fry a heck of a lot of units. It's a bargain compared to TL Autocannon Dreads which all the rage. Take a full squad. Take two full squads. Mech armies - Eldar in particular will wasted by them. Like the above poster has stated - just go first and dominate the game.

I love hydras, and I have used them in all sizes of games...

The hydra has also 1 good advantage..it's autocannons are range 72"....that gives it a huge reach on the battlefield, so much so that you can sit it on 1 corner while you castle up on the other, and there is a good chance you can hit the side armor of vehicles....if the enemy diverts attention to it then at 75 points it's not a huge loss....

Sitting back like that the hydra has survived most games really, as my opponents tend to focus more on "bigger" or closer stuff than the hydra..except my regular eldar opponent..he just absolutely loathes my hydra, and guns for it the first chance he gets....

freddieyu1 wrote:it's autocannons are range 72"....that gives it a huge reach on the battlefield...

That you don't need. 48" will cover almost an entire 4x6 board. That 72" is only ever going to be useful in Apoc.

DarkHound wrote:I'll just say that an Exterminator with Pask and a Lascannon hull-mount is as effective as 3 Hydras for 10 points less, and is more durable. It is less effective against AV10, but more effective against anything else.

Really? 4 TL str 8 shots and 1 TL str 10 shot is as good as 12 TL str 7 shots and 9 str 5 shots?

DarkHound wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:it's autocannons are range 72"....that gives it a huge reach on the battlefield...

That you don't need. 48" will cover almost an entire 4x6 board. That 72" is only ever going to be useful in Apoc.

Ah but there are games where you WILL need that range in order to survive enemy..for example, in spearhead games vs space marines with dev squads.....or versus ork lootas.....the tendency is that these shooty units will hug terrain for cover (especially versus guard) which is placed around the rear of his zone, and I have had games in the last GT here where this was exactly the case.....with the 72" of the hydra (as well as the long range of basilisks and the manticore) I deployed my HS support out of the 48" range of those enemy weapons, right at the extreme corner of my deployment. In the same way, like I said if you deploy second, you can use the long range of your units to deploy in a place diagonal to the greatest shooting threat to your heavy support....

Range 72 IS and advantage over range 48", and there will be games where you CAN take advantage of it....as an IG player you must also thing diagonally instead of vertical or horizontally, especially in identifying firing lanes, as this is 1 way to take advantage of the long range of many of it's heavy support choices....

ph34r wrote:

DarkHound wrote:I'll just say that an Exterminator with Pask and a Lascannon hull-mount is as effective as 3 Hydras for 10 points less, and is more durable. It is less effective against AV10, but more effective against anything else.

Really? 4 TL str 8 shots and 1 TL str 10 shot is as good as 12 TL str 7 shots and 9 str 5 shots?

After redoing the math, the 3 Hydras are actually better at AV11, but Pask is better at AV12+.
Pask, 2.42 pens on AV11

Hydra, 2.97 pens on AV11

Pask, 1.6 pens on AV12

Hydra, 1.5 pens on AV12

freddieyu1 wrote:Ah but there are games where you WILL need that range in order to survive enemy..for example, in spearhead games vs space marines with dev squads.....or versus ork lootas.....the tendency is that these shooty units will hug terrain for cover (especially versus guard) which is placed around the rear of his zone, and I have had games in the last GT here where this was exactly the case.....with the 72" of the hydra (as well as the long range of basilisks and the manticore) I deployed my HS support out of the 48" range of those enemy weapons, right at the extreme corner of my deployment. In the same way, like I said if you deploy second, you can use the long range of your units to deploy in a place diagonal to the greatest shooting threat to your heavy support....

Range 72 IS and advantage over range 48", and there will be games where you CAN take advantage of it....as an IG player you must also thing diagonally instead of vertical or horizontally, especially in identifying firing lanes, as this is 1 way to take advantage of the long range of many of it's heavy support choices....

I'll conceede the extra range can be useful depending on the board. However, in my area getting 48" of unobscured sight is impossible, since most of our terrain are buildings.

ah that makes things difficult...basilisks and manticore then!!!

The range also helps in dawn of war scenarios, especially if the opponent comes in first..unless you are fighting another guard or the tau most armies do not pack many units with long range firepower, so if you come in second you can maximize the placement of hydras, russes, artillery, and the like versus the few enemy units which did not come in centrally, or take advantage of the board for cover, and cover the rest of the IG army and practically the entire table from an advantageous position...In fact you can set up the IG HS units in both corners and still shoot almost everything, spreading your forces so that it would be difficult for assault forces to catch all your HS in close combat...

ph34r wrote:

DarkHound wrote:I'll just say that an Exterminator with Pask and a Lascannon hull-mount is as effective as 3 Hydras for 10 points less, and is more durable. It is less effective against AV10, but more effective against anything else.

Really? 4 TL str 8 shots and 1 TL str 10 shot is as good as 12 TL str 7 shots and 9 str 5 shots?

Against closed top AV11 Pask with a lascannon exterminator has a 57% chance of scoring at least one destroyed result against an AV11 target. Three hydras shooting at the same target have a 65% chance of scoring at least one destroyed result. This is not counting cover.

The turning point is actually against closed top AV12, where the Hydras go from needing a a 5+ to 6 to penetrate. Against AV12 Pask gets a 44% chance and the Hydras a 40% chance, again not counting cover. At AV13 on up Hydras lose the ability to score penetrating hits at all.

Complications to these calculations should be obvious. Open topped vehicles shift the odds in favor of the Hydra because a greater proportion of their hits turn into glances. Squadroned vehicles work similarly, plus allow the Hydra's greater chance of scoring multiple kills to become useful. Accepting results other than destroyed as acceptable results again shifts odds in favor of the hydra. Against anything that isn't a vehicle the Hydras should turn out to be deadlier.

There are more issues at work here, but that's more or less how the shooting works out against vehicles.

ph34r wrote:

DarkHound wrote:I'll just say that an Exterminator with Pask and a Lascannon hull-mount is as effective as 3 Hydras for 10 points less, and is more durable. It is less effective against AV10, but more effective against anything else.

Really? 4 TL str 8 shots and 1 TL str 10 shot is as good as 12 TL str 7 shots and 9 str 5 shots?

Pask Exterminator vs rhino: 4*(8/9)*(3/6) + (2/3)*(5/6) = 2.333 pens, 4*(8/9)*(1/6) + (2/3)*(5/6) = 0.70 glances
Hydras vs rhino: 12*(3/4)*(2/6) = 3 pens, 12*(3/4)*(1/6) + 9*(1/2)*(1/6) = 2.25 glances
Vendettas vs rhino: 6*(3/4)*(4/6) = 3 pens, 6*(3/4)*(1/6) = 0.75 glances

Hydras are way better against AV 11 it would seem...

Pask Exterminator vs dreadnought: 4*(8/9)*(2/6) + (2/3)*(4/6) = 1.629 pens, 4*(8/9)*(1/6) + (2/3)*(1/6) = 0.70 glances
Hydras vs dreadnought: 12*(3/4)*(1/6) = 1.5 pens, 12*(3/4)*(1/6) = 1.5 glances
Vendettas vs rhino: 6*(3/4)*(3/6) = 2.25 pens, 6*(3/4)*(1/6) = 0.75 glances

Hydras are slightly worse at penning but much better at glancing vs AV 12.

Naturally the Pask Exterminator will be better vs AV 13, but neither hydras or the pask exterminator is good vs AV 13, so in conclusion: no. I would not rate the Pask Exterminator as better, as one would not compare Hydras to the Pask Exterminator for AV 13 and 14. The Hydras are also vastly superior vs infantry, as well as AV 10 and 11, and skimmers and jetbikes. The only place of contest is AV 12. I would never take a Pask Exterminator.

EDIT: added 2x vendetta. It costs 260 compared to 225 and 215, but has other advantages.
In the end the Exterminator is pretty harshly outclassed by vendettas. Sure, the vendettas are 45 points more, but they are transports and fast and flying. If you compare point for point, vendettas are more effective.

Yeah keep the hydras, there great, for sweeping the battle field( i do it with my dreadnaughts with twin linked auto cannons) long range meduim fire to targets is great...

This is a surprising thread to me. However, I definitely agree that the Pask Exterminator loadout that DarkHound posted is superior to the Hydras, thanks largely to factors that aren't readily apparent here. While straight math may indicate the Hydras are better, all the intangibles are in favor of the Exterminator. First and foremost, it is *much* more resilient than the Hydras are, which is obviously a big plus. Secondly, we're comparing one tank to three tanks here, which means that the Hydras will either have to take up three slots and stifle other Heavy Support options or else operate in squadrons, which makes them significantly worse, as it means that they will often score "overkills," will distribute hits, and will be destroyed upon Immobilized results. Further, the Exterminator can move and fire at 100% effectiveness, while the Hydras lose more than half their firepower on the move. I would definitely take that Exterminator over 3 Hydras, no questions asked, and I think you've really hit on something valuable here!

Fetterkey wrote:This is a surprising thread to me. However, I definitely agree that the Pask Exterminator loadout that DarkHound posted is superior to the Hydras, thanks largely to factors that aren't readily apparent here. While straight math may indicate the Hydras are better, all the intangibles are in favor of the Exterminator. First and foremost, it is *much* more resilient than the Hydras are, which is obviously a big plus. Secondly, we're comparing one tank to three tanks here, which means that the Hydras will either have to take up three slots and stifle other Heavy Support options or else operate in squadrons, which makes them significantly worse, as it means that they will often score "overkills," will distribute hits, and will be destroyed upon Immobilized results. Further, the Exterminator can move and fire at 100% effectiveness, while the Hydras lose more than half their firepower on the move. I would definitely take that Exterminator over 3 Hydras, no questions asked, and I think you've really hit on something valuable here!

This may depend on what kind of army he usually fields..if he runs a mobile army then I agree the exterminator is the better choice....I run a hybrid list with a gunline so my previous HS are usually static (I have been using a basic LRBT without sponsons recently again though, as mobile cover) so the hydra fit just fine with me, as the attention of the enemy is usually at the chimera wall up front...

I do agree that if you squadron them 3 is way too much...2 hydras at the most for me..the advantage is that it takes just 1 to be in cover and the entire squadron can claim it....

You guys are all missing the point...big guns go "boom." BORING! A hydra goes "pew! pew! pew! pew!" Way better.

ender502

ps- heavy bolters go "budda! budda! budda!" Not bad.

Lets do the 3 squadron of Hydra against say.... a squad of 5 Eldar jet bikes, which I think are AV 10 or 12.

So, against the AV 10.

12 shots.

At BS 3 6 shots make it. Rolling to Pen, 2 will miss 1 will glance 3 will penetrate, statistically.

against AV 12

12 shots

At BS 3 6 shots make it. Rolling to Pen, 4 will miss 1 will glance 1 will penetrate, statistically.

Glance has a 1 in 6 chance to immobilize, which kills speeders. penetrating has a 1/2 chance to effectively destroy a jet bike.

Pask with Executioner with sponson plasma and hull lascannon vs the AV 10 jetbikes

that is 5 plasma cannon templates and statistically 2/3'ed of them will scatter away, so lets say 2 stay on target.

being generous lets say 4 hits

because they turbo-boosted, they get a 5+ cover, so 1/3 of the hits are ignored. so lets say that leaves 2 hits.

1 hit misses one penetrates.

The Plasma cannon has a 4/6 chance to take that 1 jetbike out.

AV 12

5 plasma cannon templates and statistically 2/3'ed of them will scatter away, so lets say 2 stay on target.


being generous lets say 4 hits


because they turbo-boosted, they get a 5+ cover, so 1/3 of the hits are ignored. so lets say that leaves 2 hits.

They need a 5 to glance 6 to pen

so 1 misses 1 pen

That pen has a 4/6 chance of killing 1 jetbike.

Vendetta with the 3 twin-linked lascaonnons.

3 shots.

BS 3 lets say 2 hit because of twin-linked.

because of turbo-boost lets take one off.

The lascannons are str 9 so they need 2 to glance 3 to pen on AV 10 3 to glance 4 to pen.

AV 10, lets say it pen it still has a 1/2 chance to effectively destroy that jetbike.

AV 12 lets say it pen also, it still only has 1/2 chance to destroy the jetbike.







So, statistically against skimmers Hydras are always better.

Cambak:

Eldar Jetbikes are T4 Sv3+, while Eldar Vypers are AV10 Open-topped...

Also, we're talking about the Exterminator here, not the Executioner.

Cambak wrote:Lets do the 3 squadron of Hydra against say.... a squad of 5 Eldar jet bikes, which I think are AV 10 or 12.
So, against the AV 10.
12 shots.
At BS 3 6 shots make it. Rolling to Pen, 2 will miss 1 will glance 3 will penetrate, statistically.
against AV 12
12 shots
At BS 3 6 shots make it. Rolling to Pen, 4 will miss 1 will glance 1 will penetrate, statistically.
Glance has a 1 in 6 chance to immobilize, which kills speeders. penetrating has a 1/2 chance to effectively destroy a jet bike.
Pask with Executioner with sponson plasma and hull lascannon vs the AV 10 jetbikes
that is 5 plasma cannon templates and statistically 2/3'ed of them will scatter away, so lets say 2 stay on target.
being generous lets say 4 hits
because they turbo-boosted, they get a 5+ cover, so 1/3 of the hits are ignored. so lets say that leaves 2 hits.
1 hit misses one penetrates.
The Plasma cannon has a 4/6 chance to take that 1 jetbike out.
AV 12
5 plasma cannon templates and statistically 2/3'ed of them will scatter away, so lets say 2 stay on target.
being generous lets say 4 hits
because they turbo-boosted, they get a 5+ cover, so 1/3 of the hits are ignored. so lets say that leaves 2 hits.
They need a 5 to glance 6 to pen
so 1 misses 1 pen
That pen has a 4/6 chance of killing 1 jetbike.
Vendetta with the 3 twin-linked lascaonnons.
3 shots.
BS 3 lets say 2 hit because of twin-linked.
because of turbo-boost lets take one off.
The lascannons are str 9 so they need 2 to glance 3 to pen on AV 10 3 to glance 4 to pen.
AV 10, lets say it pen it still has a 1/2 chance to effectively destroy that jetbike.
AV 12 lets say it pen also, it still only has 1/2 chance to destroy the jetbike.
So, statistically against skimmers Hydras are always better.

Your math is off. First of all, hydras are twin-linked bs 3, not straight bs 3. You've also got a great deal of rounding in there and fail to take into account point costs. Also the idea that 225 points worth of hydras is better at killing light vehicles than 130 points of vendetta is fairly obvious (it's almost double the cost after all), using that as a justification for taking them over vendettas is, to put it mildly, flawed.
If you're looking for which is better for its points at killing what, that math has been done. By me. Read the thread, it's post #2. Even posted the method so you can crunch the numbers on other platforms.

Cheers.

The hydra is a pretty good weapon. It carries a TL Autocannon with increased range and ability to deny turbo-boosters.
As such, they have all the same advantages of other ACs
* Good against T6 MCs
* Good against bikes -- making them roll saves
* Good on AV10 and AV11
* Good on T3 multiple wounds -- like scarab swarms

I would not take more than 1 heavy support choice of them, but if your looking for some good ranged dakka, they are not a bad investment for the point cost.

Autocannons aren't that great against Toughness 6 MCs, especially those that are packing 3+ armor, like many Tyranids. They are ideal against targets with toughness 5 or lower and light vehicles. Autocannons are also extremely strong against Imperial Guard heavy weapon teams.