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So what we've got is that a Blissgiver Lord, given an average roll for attacks, has about a 2/3 chance to kill a MC on the charge, and about 33% chance to accomplish nothing. Then you have to factor in the chance of rolling a 1 for the Daemon Weapon attacks, which screws you utterly. All in all, I don't think a Blissgiver Lord has better than an even chance of putting a wound on a TMC, and if he doesn't he'll most likely get gibbed. In short, aiming for TMCs with a Blissgiver Lord is a risky option.

What about dual-LC Termie Champions with an Icon of Slaanesh? 50 points each, so say 5 against a TMC (That's also one Land Raider-full, which is a nice coincidence). That's 25 attacks, 16.7 hits, 2.7+2.3=5 wounds, average. Just a little luck will boost it to 6 or 7. That's pretty decent, and since you have 5 models the TMC can't massacre them all. So you'll almost certainly win combat and either sweep or force a few No Retreat wounds, which will quite likely kill the TMC off.

Not many of those monsters are S8+ though. And Carnifexes have pretty low Initiative so Typhus would be striking first with God Knows How Many Attacks that wound on a 4+ and cause ID to boot.

But you're right, if a S8 wound gets through his armor he's pretty boned.

Considering that Typhus is I5 and has both a Daemon Weapon and a Force Weapon in the form of Manreaper, I'd say a little more than just an Iv5+ stands in the way of Instant Death. Plus he gets automatic casting on Nurgle's Rot and Wind of Chaos.

So sad...

Anyhoo, it might be something to consider that a Blissgiver is more likely to kill a Monstrous Creature than any other Daemon Weapon, and considerably cheaper and more mobile than Abbadon. Giving the Lord a pair of Wings, or better still a Jump Pack, and he can go over screening units.

Monster Rain wrote:Not many of those monsters are S8+ though. And Carnifexes have pretty low Initiative so Typhus would be striking first with God Knows How Many Attacks that wound on a 4+ and cause ID to boot.

But you're right, if a S8 wound gets through his armor he's pretty boned.

Its not just the S8+ that are a pain. Remember that Monstrous Creatures ignore armour saves ( and thus FNP ) which leaves Typhus with just the 5+ Invulnerable again.

Don´t get me wrong. I love the model and he is the central character of my Death Guard force. But its really important not to get blinded by all the abilities he has ( T4(5), FNP, Poisoned Daemon Weapon etc. ) and start to believe he is invincible. The classical punishment for hubris is to roll an inconvenient "1" for the the Daemon weapon.

PS. Oh, and the ID attempts against TMC;s most likely would be under the effect of Shadow in the Warp. 3d6 is...irritating.

A-P wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Not many of those monsters are S8+ though. And Carnifexes have pretty low Initiative so Typhus would be striking first with God Knows How Many Attacks that wound on a 4+ and cause ID to boot.

But you're right, if a S8 wound gets through his armor he's pretty boned.

Its not just the S8+ that are a pain. Remember that Monstrous Creatures ignore armour saves ( and thus FNP ) which leaves Typhus with just the 5+ Invulnerable again.

Don´t get me wrong. I love the model and he is the central character of my Death Guard force. But its really important not to get blinded by all the abilities he has ( T4(5), FNP, Poisoned Daemon Weapon etc. ) and start to believe he is invincible. The classical punishment for hubris is to roll an inconvenient "1" for the the Daemon weapon.

PS. Oh, and the ID attempts against TMC;s most likely would be under the effect of Shadow in the Warp. 3d6 is...irritating.

Even so, wouldn't you think that of all the Chaos Lords(with the possible exception of Abaddon) don't you think he's got the best chance? Wounding on a 4+ and the Force Weapon and all? He can take a few wounds before he goes down and he's T5 so the S6 Monsters might not drop him...

I don't get too excited about Typhus in all circumstances though. Whenever I face him I make sure that he catches a Thunder Hammer or two to the face and that's the end of his night.

PS. Oh, and the ID attempts against TMC;s most likely would be under the effect of Shadow in the Warp. 3d6 is...irritating.

Ah, but doesn't Typhus bypass the Shadow In the Warp with his neat little rule that ignores psychic checks?

EDIT: My bad, just checked the codex and it only specifies that he doesn't take psychic checks for his two actual powers... Bummer.

Not for his Psychic Test, no.

I think that only works for Wind of Chaos and Nurgle's Rot.

Even so, wouldn't you think that of all the Chaos Lords(with the possible exception of Abaddon) don't you think he's got the best chance? Wounding on a 4+ and the Force Weapon and all? He can take a few wounds before he goes down and he's T5 so the S6 Monsters might not drop him...

Well, preferably I would NOT send my Lord against TMC;s and just shoot the buggers. But if it must done then yes. Abaddon would be the first choice ( EW and better Invulnerable save ), followed by Typhus.

I don't get too excited about Typhus in all circumstances though. Whenever I face him I make sure that he catches a Thunder Hammer or two to the face and that's the end of his night.

Funny how my experiences match yours...from the opposite side of the front line.

A Chaos Lord with the Mark of Slaanesh, a Jump Pack, a Blissgiver, and a Personal Icon would be 160.

Rolling for his Daemon Weapon
1. 2/3 of the time he takes a wound (Iv5+)
2. 6 attacks, 4 hits, 1 wound, Instant Death
3. 7 attacks, 5 hits, 1 wound, Instant Death
4. 8 attacks, 5 hits, 1 wound, Instant Death
5. 9 attacks, 6 hits, 1 wound, Instant Death
6. 10 attacks, 7 hits, 1 wound, Instant Death

[Note: If these numbers look weird, it's because there are no fractions in Warhammer, just integers, so any fractions are rounded up or down.]

A unit of five Chaos Terminator Champions with pairs of Lightening Claws and in Icon of Slaanesh would be 265, not Fearless, less mobile, and prone to having their Icon of Slaanesh removed at inconvenient times.

20 attacks, 13 hits, 4 wounds

An unmarked Chaos Lord

Rolling for his Daemon Weapon
1. 2/3 of the time he takes a wound (Iv5+)
2. 6 attacks, 4 hits, 1 wound
3. 7 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds
4. 8 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds
5. 9 attacks, 6 hits, 2 wounds
6. 10 attacks, 7 hits, 2 wounds

A Chaos Lord with the Mark of Nurgle
1. 2/3 of the time he takes a wound (Iv5+)
2. 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds
3. 7 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds
4. 8 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds
5. 9 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds
6. 10 attacks, 7 hits, 4 wounds

A Chaos Lord with the Mark of Tzeentch
Shooting
1. 1/2 of the time he takes a wound (Iv4+)
2. 2 attacks, 2 hits, 0 wounds
3. 3 attacks, 3 hits, 1 wound
4. 4 attacks, 3 hits, 1 wound
5. 5 attacks, 4 hits, 1 wound
6. 6 attacks, 5 hits, 1 wound

And

Close Combat
1. 1/2 of the time he takes a wound (Iv4+)
2. 6 attacks, 4 hits, 1 wound
3. 7 attacks, 5 hits, 1 wound
4. 8 attacks, 5 hits, 1 wound
5. 9 attacks, 6 hits, 1 wound
6. 10 attacks, 7 hits, 1 wound

Supposing the Lord is mounted on a Disc of Tzeentch:
1. 1/2 of the time he takes a wound (Iv4+)
2. 7 attacks, 5 hits, 1 wound
3. 8 attacks, 5 hits, 1 wound
4. 9 attacks, 6 hits, 1 wound
5. 10 attacks, 7 hits, 1 wound
6. 11 attacks, 7 hits, 1 wound


A Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne
[1, 1][1, 1]. 1/3 of the time he takes a wound (Iv5+) 3%
[1, 2][2, 1]. 1/3 of the time he takes a wound (Iv5+) 6%
[1, 3][3, 1]. 1/3 of the time he takes a wound (Iv5+) 6%
[1, 4][4, 1]. 1/3 of the time he takes a wound (Iv5+) 6%
[1, 5][5, 1]. 1/3 of the time he takes a wound (Iv5+) 6%
[1, 6][6, 1]. 1/3 of the time he takes a wound (Iv5+) 6%
[2, 2][2, 2]."4". 9 attacks, 6 hits, 1 wound 3%
[2, 3][3, 2]."5". 10 attacks, 7 hits, 1 wound 6%
[2, 4][4, 2]."6". 11 attacks, 7 hits, 1 wound 6%
[2, 5][5, 2]."7". 12 attacks, 8 hits, 1 wound 6%
[2, 6][6, 2]."8". 13 attacks, 9 hits, 2 wounds 6%
[3, 3][3, 3]."6" 11 attacks, 7 hits, 1 wound 3%
[3, 4][4, 3]."7". 12 attacks, 8 hits, 1 wound 6%
[3, 5][5, 3]."8". 13 attacks, 9 hits, 2 wounds 6%
[3, 6][6, 3],"9". 14 attacks, 9 hits, 2 wounds 6%
[4, 4][4, 4],"8". 13 attacks, 9 hits, 2 wounds 3%
[4, 5][5, 4],"9". 14 attacks, 9 hits, 2 wounds 6%
[4, 6][6, 4],"10". 15 attacks, 10 hits, 2 wounds 6%
[5, 5][5, 5],"10". 15 attacks, 10 hits, 2 wounds 3%
[5, 6][6, 5],"11". 16 attacks, 11 hits, 2 wounds 6%
[6, 6][6, 6],"12". 17 attacks, 11 hits, 2 wounds 3%

Yeah, the percentages are rounded up too. But there's around 2/3 chance of hurting himself, and 4/6 chance of ~1-2 wounds on the Carnifex/Trygon/Tervigon.

The Plaguebringer and the Blissgiver are clearly the winners on reliability, while the Deathscreamer rivals the Bloodfeeder for potentiality, but beats the heck out of it on reliability and user-safety.

A-P wrote:

I don't get too excited about Typhus in all circumstances though. Whenever I face him I make sure that he catches a Thunder Hammer or two to the face and that's the end of his night.

Funny how my experiences match yours...from the opposite side of the front line.

Not to get into too much of an OT tactica session, but generally the first guy to get his Death Star unit out of the Land Raider tends to lose.

Don't be that guy!

Monster Rain wrote:
Not to get into too much of an OT tactica session, but generally the first guy to get his Death Star unit out of the Land Raider tends to lose.

Don't be that guy!

I don´t run a Death Star with my Death Guard. Typhus is the leader because he is the only true Death Guard commander available. I don´t count Lords/units with pseudo-"marks" or rags as true "Death Guard".

But your right. Enough of the Nurgle OT and let us exit the stage and leave it for the supporters of Slaanesh, our Pustulent Patrons sister/brother.

Well, if you want to take out a MC, take a Daemon Prince. Those are nice and killy.

Or lascannons.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Or lascannons.

The best answer, really. Rockets and Lascannons and Plasmas and Meltas.

Don't get into CC if you can help it.

Yes, any of those weapons will really help kill a TMC. But plasmas suffer somewhat from the same downfall of a Daemon Weapon. And for both Meltas and Plasma Guns you need to get within 12". I'm not saying that a Slaanesh lord w. Blissgiver is the only way to kill TMCs but may be a handy tool to use as a backup.

BTW thank you everyone who has posted here, this is why I love this forum!!!

Billie_Joe wrote:Yes, any of those weapons will really help kill a TMC. But plasmas suffer somewhat from the same downfall of a Daemon Weapon. And for both Meltas and Plasma Guns you need to get within 12". I'm not saying that a Slaanesh lord w. Blissgiver is the only way to kill TMCs but may be a handy tool to use as a backup.

As backup it's a good idea.

I think the consensus was just don't run Mr. Slaanesh out and try to Solo a Trygon without support!

It is a useful unit to have lurking about. Will force the opponent to protect his guys and maybe be a bit less aggressive. He's just not much use as a dedicated MC hunter.

Also @ Nurglitch
Why would you prefer a jetpack over wings? You can still DS with the wings and can still use transports. Am I missing something? Also, I don't have a book here, but I thought you have reroll a passed invul save with perils? I seem to remember saving zoanthropes on a double six a while back.

Yes, if Perils happens you have to re-roll your successful invul to save the wound.

Soup and a roll:

Immunity to Jaws of the World Wolf, dollar cost of getting a hold of the Possessed Wings bit.

Coolz.

I suppose the possessed backpack is a bit generic as well.

Still think it's better though (because I have one).

You know what else is immune to JotWW? Models in a transport, which is what you can do with wings. Fitting inside a rhino will help you out alot more than the ability to dodge a single army's psychic power.

If you want to waste your close combat Chaos Lord in a Rhino, please do so. Moreover if you want to spend between $12-$25 bucks giving him Wings, plus also do so.

How is it a waste? Have I missed a "Cannot fight if ever embarked in a Rhino" special rule or something? Use the rhino to get close with a zerker squad and disembark and charge. I've heard people use this tactic in 5th ed. Also theres nothing that says you have to put him there either. You stated that giving a lord more options will make him a "waste"

A Rhino isn't really the best place for CC units. All you have to do to get away from them is be 14.99 inches away at the start of their movement phase.

With wings, or with my favorite the Land Raider, you're much more in control of your Assaulting Destiny.

Moreso if the Chaos Lord is equipped with Wings, then he's the only one in the Rhino so equipped, and will not benefit from having a squad of goons backing him up if he does use the Wings. I figure if you're going for Wings, bite the bullet and get a Jump Pack and back him up with Raptors.

My Khorne lord has wings and sometimes rides with the zerkers. He'll happily flap off on his own, even if the enemy is 14.99 inches away if a target offers itself. Not the best unit in the game, but he'll hold his own

Also, any self-respecting chaos player should stump up £12 for the possessed box just for the excellent bitz.

wings+land raider+bliss giver=dead tervagon. It's chaos go big or go home.

Land Raider + Berzerkers + Fist Champ = dead tervigon, too.

Same can be said about Kharn, Abaddon, and Typhus.

If you're going to bring a Land Raider for the sole purpose of transporting a killy HQ, any of the above will out-perform an upgraded Lord against MCs in most situations because of having many/more of the same strengths as well as a better ability to wound.

Except for the problem that the Tervigon will be screened by Termagants with Counter-Attack, and likely with Poison (4+) and Feel No Pain as well. The occupants of the Land Raider without Wings would have to go through those Termagants first.

The Berzerkers would not ignore the Termagant's Feel No Pain, like a Chaos Lord with a Blissgiver would, had that Chaos Lord gone through the Termagants rather than over them.

Perhaps you could try to Tank Shock your way through the Termagants, but then that would mean closing your Land Raider with the Tyranid anti-tank weapons (the Monstrous Creatures).

Better to jump over the screening troops with a unit that can defeat the synergies of the target units rather than relying on sheer power (which the Berzerkers have plenty of).

Uh, a Bliss Lord with wings/jump pack is no better at getting through a screen. It takes about 7 small bases to completely encircle a 60mm base, which is stupidly easy to come by in an army that spawns 3d6 per Tervigon per turn. If a competent Tyranid player wants to keep you from getting his MCs unless you kill a bunch of little bugs, then you are definitely stuck killing a bunch of little bugs.

You jump over the screen of bugs. And get stuck staring at the second screen of bugs. If the argument is jump pack versus transports, a good Nid player/list should be quite capable of shooting Lord+Raptors to pieces. And if the argument is Killy HQ versus Bliss Lord, the Chaos dex has many, many HQ options that are far more offensively potent than a tricked out Slaanesh Lord.

sourclams wrote:Uh, a Bliss Lord with wings/jump pack is no better at getting through a screen. It takes about 7 small bases to completely encircle a 60mm base, which is stupidly easy to come by in an army that spawns 3d6 per Tervigon per turn. If a competent Tyranid player wants to keep you from getting his MCs unless you kill a bunch of little bugs, then you are definitely stuck killing a bunch of little bugs.

You have a point... about Tervigons.

Trygons and Hive Tyrants and their ilk tend to be a little less defensively placed.