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Yeah, and that actually happens rather frequently. If you are going with a Daemon Weapon, I'd rather take an Undivided one. S5 is nice, and it is economical. If you're going to be extravagent, take MoN. The only other thing I'd bother taking is the Lightning Claw, even without a pair. Having a combi-plas is nice with BS5, infact usually better than getting an extra attack so long as you're only in 2 or 3 rounds of combat a game.

tokugawa:

Moreso the psychic powers would fail 50% of the time in addition to their natural rate of failure.

Regarding Lucius, it could be the case that Lucius leaves his unit prior to being charged. Just throwing that out there...

You could also use Tactics. For example, form a T with the main body of his squad well back, and a chain of four Noise Marines extended joining him to the back line, five Noise Marines over 6" away from Lucius.

DarkHound wrote:Yeah, and that actually happens rather frequently. If you are going with a Daemon Weapon, I'd rather take an Undivided one. S5 is nice, and it is economical. If you're going to be extravagent, take MoN. The only other thing I'd bother taking is the Lightning Claw, even without a pair. Having a combi-plas is nice with BS5, infact usually better than getting an extra attack so long as you're only in 2 or 3 rounds of combat a game.

I would always rather take a Plaguebringer than an Undivided Daemon Weapon. An Undivided DW is only better against T2 and T3 opponents; against T4 the Plaguebringer is better, against T5 they're the same, and against anything above the Plaguebringer is better again. So in short, an Undivided DW is great if you plan for your Chaos Lord to be slaughtering grots all game.

Well, more important than being deadly is being cheaply deadly. I've never had a moment where MoN has really helped my Sorcerer survive; usually only Instant Death wounds get tossed on him. I expect the defensive benefits of MoN to hold true for the Lord: it helps against anything that doesn't matter. That being said, is the increase in performance worth 20 points?

You're throwing points away on a weak, frail model that's likely to hurt itself rather than do anything useful, so what's 20 more?

Remember we've opted out of daemon prince, so once that shark's been jumped, our other choices are pretty much "oh, well, then whatever you want to waste points on is fine"

I find chaos sorcerer and lords to be effective, of course not Daemon prince effective, but when they are used properly they do have a bunch of fun tricks you can tool them out to have. Nothing says suicide like a nice blood feeder, good luck not killing yourself har har.

Use Typhus! stats or nothing, the model looks great. Go with style if you dont want to go with DP i say.

Take a Chaos Lord give him a Mark of Slaasnesh, a daemon weapon, meltabombs, and a mount of slaanesh. Then take him and stick him with whoever inside a land raider.
The Land Raider can move 12", Chaos Lord disembarks 2" from land raider, run d6" , then charge 12"giving a total threat range of 27 - 32 inches! Turn 1 assault with a daemon weapon that instant deaths everything or if needed has MeltaBombs to disable a tank in close combat before it is even turn 1. Granted he will then be massacred but hey that is part of his fun! And you can always be really "fun" and have two chaos lords riding in land raiders.

@Geosto12mer:
If he got Eternal Warrior yes.
But he doesn't, so hell no in my book.

@SirRouga:
It is a nice charge range...but it's a lone IC with a str 4 weapon...
"Fun" is subjective, I wouldn't find it fine throwing away the figurehead of ones army.../shrug.

Typhus doesn't need Eternal Warrior. He just needs to be accompanied by the right unit.

That's something many people forget: the advantage of Independent Characters is that they can join units to be protected from shooting, and from combat. Sure, they're attacked as separate units in combat, but that's only if there's someone left to attack back.

If you want characterful, stick Typhus in a unit of Plague Marines. If you want characterful but effective, stick him in a unit of Possessed. If you want just effective, stick him in a unit of Berzerkers. If you want to Deep Strike him, stick him in a unit of Obliterators.

If you want him to assault out of a Land Raider, and you're will to both break the bank and take risks, take a unit of four Terminator Champions with two pairs of Lightening Claws and an Icon of Khorne.

That'll be 20 attacks on the charge, re-rolling wounds, ignoring saves at I4, plus Typhus' A3(4)+1D6 on the charge, re-rolling wounds against T4-, and ignoring saves at I5.

If the Land Raider gets close enough, you can get a free Wind of Chaos from Typhus before the charge, or if there's a horde you'll have trouble murdering then a free Nurgle's Rot.

If you're foot-slogging, then go for the "Conga-Line" with Typhus bringing up the rear a good 7" behind the front-most model. If the unit is charged from the front, then Typhus will never get into contact with the enemy until the second round of combat, and if the unit charges, Typhus won't get into contact with the eney until the second round of combat. While in combat, however, he can still set off free Nurgle's Rots.

You can defend him in combat, but he's like the Death Star...and you know how that ends .

I've killed him/seen him die too often, but I will admit never in a top-form competitive game.
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As for free Nurgle's 'Farts', I like that conga line idea used in that way.
I generally see the 'conga-line' ( I call it the lightbulb formation) used for fist champions.

Some Death Star units are effective. Most are not. In general having a "Death Star" like that means that your list is weak, with some notable exceptions.

Seer Councils....FEAR THE X-WINGS!!!

Personnally i think the funnest is a sorcerer w gift of chaos, i mean look at your opponents face when he sees a model of his like aunva (250 pts) turns in to a blood thirsty pile of meat.

tau_etheral wrote:Personnally i think the funnest is a sorcerer w gift of chaos, i mean look at your opponents face when he sees a model of his like aunva (250 pts) turns in to a blood thirsty pile of meat.

Don't forget that the Mark of Tzeentch means you get to use two per turn! Unfortunately, since it's used at the beginning of the turn, the Sorcerer has to survive two CCs with the big, powerful dude (not Aun'Va, lol) before he gets to try to use it.

Warptime and the Mark of Tzeentch help with that. Personally I prefer the Gift of Chaos on an Aspiring Sorcerer. He's protected by Thousand Suns and the Thousand Suns look exactly like the kind of thing you want to jump into combat with.

@tau_etheral:
Who the hell uses Aun'Va?
Oh, and it's bad to post points costs of units needlessly.

Nurglitch wrote:Warptime and the Mark of Tzeentch help with that. Personally I prefer the Gift of Chaos on an Aspiring Sorcerer. He's protected by Thousand Suns and the Thousand Suns look exactly like the kind of thing you want to jump into combat with.

But then the sorcerer does not have Bolt of Change, which is arguably the most important power for the sorcerer to have.

willydstyle wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Warptime and the Mark of Tzeentch help with that. Personally I prefer the Gift of Chaos on an Aspiring Sorcerer. He's protected by Thousand Suns and the Thousand Suns look exactly like the kind of thing you want to jump into combat with.

But then the sorcerer does not have Bolt of Change, which is arguably the most important power for the sorcerer to have.

Woah there, seriously? Lets not open that can of worms...

Why not? The point of this thread is to discuss good Chaos HQ choices, and I'm surprised that anyone would claim the Bolt of Change is the most important power for a Sorcerer of Tzeentch to have when clearly that power is Warptime.

I'll agree with Nurglitch and echo Sanctjud: wat. Bolt of Change is a bad power for anyone but Ahriman, and only because it is one more thing he can throw at the enemy after Warptime and Doombolt/Winds.

I'll agree with Nurglitch and echo Sanctjud: wat

Actually, in a 500 pt. tournament I did locally very recently, I ran a Tzeentchian Sorcerer with Warptime and Bolt of Change as my HQ, and I've got to say that he performed admirably, due in no small part to that Bolt of Change. While playing against a Sisters army (a nightmare for any psyker HQ) I managed to blow the hell out of his Exorcist with a single bolt. I mean, it may not be the most reliable long-range weapon, especially when it comes to medium or heavy tank hunting, but I find it to be pretty incredible for Rhino killing and zapping important models. Warptime really helps cut down on the unreliability brought on by its one-shot nature.

Not saying at all that it's an optimal choice, but I find it to be pretty dang effective.

The only thing Warptime helps it do is hit. If it let you re-roll your penetration roll, that might be worth it. I don't know dawg, 180 points for a single BS10 S8 shot, or 165 points for 2 and a TL'ed Lascannons on a Predator.

You do make a point... A re-roll to penetration would be incredibly nice. I suppose I just got lucky.

But Bolt of Change aside, and in response to the OP, I consider Chaos Sorcerer's to be a very nice choice for an HQ. They're pretty killy in close combat, and their powers have a variety of utilities, particularly Lash of Submission or Warptime. They can be decently durable when paired with a MoN or MoT, and all in all I consider them worth it.

Plus, the models are badass.

I found MoN to be a kind of crap upgrade. The only wounds that'll get lumped on him are usually S8 anyway, so they'll still wound on 2s and probably ignore armor. In a hard-core Nurgle army, it does open up Nurgle's Rot is an excellent horde killer, especially when you're rocking Terminator Armor for the increased base size. It'll make up for the lack of bodies/bolters that comes with 23 points per model, which can make MoN worth it.

Right now I run a Sorcerer with MoT, Warptime and Doombolt. I've found it to be the most versitile build I've ever run, packing a big punch at range or in close combat.

If you're going to go for a Sorcerer of Nurgle with Terminator Armour and Nurgle's Rot, go for Typhus instead: he's got an extra wound, a Daemon Weapon, and he casts Wind of Chaos and Nurgle's Rot for free, which is handy in an environment where other powers might be prevented by effects such as the Shadow in the Warp.

Because without Bolt of Change a Thousand Sons squad can't do anything to a rhino on an objective.

willydstyle wrote:Because without Bolt of Change a Thousand Sons squad can't do anything to a rhino on an objective.

Ah but this isnt exactly true! They could rapid fire bolters into back armor for glancing hits, and if they score enough immobilized and weapon destroyed hits they could kill it. Same with cc It is however, very unlikely. But to say they cannot do anything! i will not hear of it

mrwittwer wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Because without Bolt of Change a Thousand Sons squad can't do anything to a rhino on an objective.

Ah but this isnt exactly true! They could rapid fire bolters into back armor for glancing hits, and if they score enough immobilized and weapon destroyed hits they could kill it. Same with cc It is however, very unlikely. But to say they cannot do anything! i will not hear of it

Unfortunately a game only has a limited number of turns!

Haha, so true, while its not a viable option. I have had a rhino destroyed by bolters in this fashion.