Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Right I'm looking for a fun, decent chaos HQ. I don't want a Daemon Prince so don't mention that, I want to play for fun more than for winning. Im thinking about a chaos sorcerer but how should I kit him out? I am getting noise marines so I might give him lash. What else would be a good choice? Lucius seems good and Typhus also seems good, my army is Slaanesh based and I play against Necrons. To many choices

Well, i can tell you that any hq using lash, is not going to be seen as fun. Lash is a very competetive playstyle.

If you want fun or interesting, i suggest fabius bile, typhus, lucius, or perhaps a nurgle sorcerer.

We are going to have a hard time telling you what you will think is a fun unit to play. I can tell you what are good options and good equipment loadouts for sorc/lord if you don't want a DP.

I prefer using a sorc/lord with wings + MoN/Tzeentch for the extra survivability, but slaanesh is a great option as well since they are mostly CC oriented. If you go with a sorc I would definitely pick up warptime for the CC goodness and if you pick up a familiar go with maybe winds of chaos for a template that kills everything under it on a 4+ or lash (but as someone said this is the cheese option, not the "fun" option). If you go lord a slaanesh daemon weapon is extremely good for fighting anything with multiple wounds, but idk if that is the most efficient choice against necrons.

If you do go with wings I usually roll my HQ with a squad of raptors with melta + champ with 2x LClaws for MC/HQ/Hardened Toughness killing and for counter-charging anything that gets bogged down fighting your troops.

Typhus is ok, but a bit overpriced. He's excellent against tyranids and is just a tough mother all around. If you're going all slaanesh and want a tough but relatively cheap CC unit lucius is pretty good. He has that excellent armor that throws S4 hits back at any unit he makes a save against and amazing WS. Unfortunately he has a low number of attacks

Fabius bile was a member of the emperor's children so would fit as a slaanesh-ish choice. He has a really fun pre-battle roll that can give you some interesting units to play around with, but he can also kill off an entire squad before they ever set foot on the board. He is a fairly decent CC troop on his own as well.

Ah I see, a Nurgle sorcerer sounds very interesting might look into that.

the chaos lord with daemon weapon and mark of khorne is rather entertaining in CC, with up to 15 attacks at S6 (or 5) with no armour saves allowed.

lets see the necrons get up from that!

Well...he does on average 5 kills in combat which is nice, but a rez orb makes it only 2.5.

In addition, 1/3 of the time the DW goes stupid and triest to help the Necrons.

So, yes, I do agree on the entertainment value.

Lord - MoK, Deamon weapon. 140 points

up to 17 attacks on the charge hilarious fun, unreliable, but I play one in fun games just because of the amount of attacks it could possibly get

Yet your name would suggest Kharn be a better choice. I'd rather kill my own dudes than contribut nothing and hurt myself when the weapon goes stupid...

Kharn ftw.

Go for Lucius. His Armour of Shrieking Souls is pretty fun (automatic S4 ignores armour hit on any saves), he has a Doom Siren, and nobody will accuse you of trying to be competitive.

Go for Lucius. His Armour of Shrieking Souls is pretty fun (automatic S4 ignores armour hit on any saves), he has a Doom Siren, and nobody will accuse you of trying to be competitive.

Well the last part of that is really damn true. Wohoo a S4 power weapon on a pricey non-EW special character, hold on I need a pen to write home about this awesomeness. There's a fine line between "Fun" and "Bad" Lucius is so far on the bad side he isn't even aware there's a fun one. I'd rather have a Slaanesh lord with a Blissgiver, at least then I feel like I'm doing something with the HQ slot.

Yeah, Lucius only gets five S4 Power Weapon attacks on the charge, but he also reduces the number of attacks trying to hit him, and deals out an automatic S4 Power Weapon hit with every save he makes in close combat. In combination with his Doom Siren this makes him murder on hordes that would suck up Kharn's attacks and return them with interest.

Somewhere around here I have a nice analysis of Lucius killing a unit of ten Bloodclaws when they charge him: it takes three rounds of combat, but it happens.

The funny thing is that Lucius' value goes up as you throw him into more and more dangerous situations.

Take a unit of 30 Orks including a Nob with a Powerklaw, for example, and compare Lucius to Kharn (supposing that they've decided to be idiots and charged the mob without any support):

Lucius gets 5 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, and no armour saves. Kharn gets 6 attacks, hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+ and no armour saves. Kharn wins eh? Well...

Expected value of dead Orks (K): 4.17
Expected value of dead Orks (L): 1.67

The Orks now reply. Against Kharn we can expect (rounding down) 25 Boyz, armed with Sluggas and Choppas, and a Nob with a Powerklaw. So hitting on 4+, wounding on 5+ and failing armour saves on 2-, and hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+ and failing invulnerable saves on 4-.

Expected value of wounds on Kharn (B): 4.17
Expected value of wounds on Kharn (N): 0.83 (ID)

So we can expect Kharn to go down under a scrum of Orks having taken four of the filthy green-skinned savages with him.

Against Lucius we have we can expect (rounding up) 27 Boyz, armed with Sluggas and Choppas, and a Nob with a Powerklaw. So hitting on 4+, wounding on 5+ and failing armour saves on 2-, and hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+ and failing invulnerable saves on 4-. Supposing each villain has been surrounded by six Orks in base to base contact then:

Expected value of wounds on Lucius (B): 4.17
Expected value of wounds on Lucius (N): 0.83 (ID)

However, after the Boyz have attacked, and after they can be expected to beat Lucius to a pleasant pulp, they will suffer 8.33 additional wounds as the Armour of Shrieking Souls makes them pay for their temerity.

This means that while Kharn inflicts 4.17:5.00 expected wounds, Lucius inflicts 10.00:5.00 expected wounds.

In other words, in this situation we can expect both to go down fighting. At the end of the combat Kharn leaves us with 25 Boys and a Nob, and Lucius leaves us with 19 Boys and a Nob. Advantage: Lucius.

Suppose we have a similar situation: The Orks charge Lucius or Kharn!

Kharn has 5 attacks, hitting on 2+, wounding on 3+, and ignoring armour saves. Lucius has 4 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, and ignoring armour saves.

Expected value of dead Orks (K): 2.78
Expected value of dead Orks (L): 1.33

Rounding up, Kharn kills 3 Orks before they can bury him under a mass of Orks, and Lucius kills 1 Ork. Attacking back we see 104 attacks on Kharn and 112 attacks on Lucius, both at 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and 2- to fail saves, followed by 4 attacks at 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, and 4- to fail saves. Both are again surrounded by 6 Orks. O = N + B.

Expected value of wounds on Kharn (O): 9.78
Expected value of wounds on Lucius (O): 9.94

But thanks to the Armour of Shrieking Souls, Lucius can be expected to add another 19 Orks.

In the end, after the Orks have trampled both Lucius and Kharn into the dirt, Kharn can be expected to leave 2.78 Orks dead, and Lucius leaves 20.00 dead.

Yes, if he gets mobbed and eats so many armor saves it staggers the imagination, Lucius can die and take people with him. You've completely changed my opinion of Lucius. A lord who's best hope of dealing damage is getting murdered by as many models as possible must be of value.

You've also restored my faith in humanty's ability to convince themselves bad ideas are really good if the stars align.

So Lucius can rack up a higher body-count against Orks. Whoopy-doo. What about Assault Terminators, armed with Thunderhammer and Storm Shields?

Supposing Kharn gets the charge that's 6 attacks at 2+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and 2- to fail saves. Lucius gets 5 attacks at 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and 2- to fail saves.

Expected value of dead Terminators (K): 0.83
Expected value of dead Terminators (L): 0.56

Rounding up they both kill a Terminator. The Terminators then beat both to death using their Thunderhammers. It's 4+ to hit both, 2+ to wound both, and 4- to fail saves. Supposing that they are both surrounded we see:

Expected value of wounds on Kharn (T): 2.22 (ID)
Expected value of wounds on Lucius (T): 0.56 (ID)

So rounded up they both get killed. So sad. But Lucius takes 1.11 more Terminators down with him, thanks to the Armour of Shrieking Souls. That means that the final score is 1.67 for Lucius, and 0.83 for Kharn. Lucius only doubles Kharn's score this time, but there's simply not enough Assault Terminators in the combat to really help the Armour of Shrieking Souls overcome the deficit in attacks caused by the Lash of Torment.

Heck, I'm bored, let's see how both would fair plunging into a unit of 30 Termagants with Toxin Sacs, Counter-Attack, Defensive Grenades and Preferred Enemy.

Kharn has 5 attacks at 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound, and ignores saves. Lucius has 4 attacks at 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, and ignores saves.

Expected value of wounds on Termagants (K): 3.47
Expected value of wounds on Termagants (L): 1.78

So let's give Kharn the benefit of the doubt and say he killed 4 Termagants even though we've been rounding up or down as we would normally, while Lucius killed 2. They're surrounded!

So 26 Termagants hit Kharn on 4+ (re-rolling misses), wound on 4+, and fail armour saves on 2-. They Counter-Attack on 10-, and don't on 11+.

28 Termagants hit Lucius on 4+ (re-rolling misses), wound on 4+, and fail armour saves on 2-. They Counter-Attack on 10-, and don't on 11+.

Expected value of wounds on Kharn (O): 6.21
Expected value of wounds on Lucius (O): 5.94

The Armour of Shrieking Souls inflicts an additional 12.73 wounds on the Termagants.

So again, both are killed, but Lucius takes 14.15 Termagants back to Hell with him, while Kharn manages a magnificent 3.47 tally of skulls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mastershake:

So, you'd prefer a special character that eats a few armour saves, dies, and doesn't take any with him? Duly noted.

Lucius is really, really good at eating MEQs and dueling infantry HQs. He is also apparently really good at devouring hordes (so long as he dies). I dunno, he sounds like a pretty good HQ to me. I might have to try him some time.

Well...don't forget about his lash whips.
Lucius's special rules actually contradict each other...

He has an attack reducing ability while at the same time has an offensive ability that relies on more attacks placed upon him.

IMO, take a more serious approach...will Kharn or Lucius ever engage an unmolested mob of orcs alone?

I love all Nurglitches calculations and stuff that I completley don't understand (And I'm late in my teens, I really should be understanding some of it). Good stuff mate, I'm loving all these HQ V horde scenarios. I am very tempted to try Lucius, he seems underrated, fun and lethal. Kharn just wouldn't fit in with my army anyway, even though he's really cool.

Speaking of comparisons, let's consider both characters charging a unit of Grey Hunters, giving the Grey Hunters both a Powerfist and a goon with the Mark of the Wolfen, and that Banner of Totally Not Scything Talons.

But let's throw in a quirk. Let's assume, for the sake of entertainment, that a Sorcerer with the Lash of Submission has made it so that either of these mighty villians will be able to charge 1". So let's begin with the shooting phase:

Kharn opens up with his Plasma Pistol. That's 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no armour saves, and on a 1 he takes wound (so expected value of doing a wound minus the expected value of taking one). Lucius, on the other hand, get the Grey Hunters lined up for a perfect ten Doom Siren. That's automatically hitting, 3+ to wound, and no armour saves. On all ten.

Expected value of wounds on Grey Hunters (K): 0.63
Expected value of wounds on Grey Hunters (L): 6.67

So Kharn can be expected to kill one Grey Hunter in the Shooting phase before piling in. Lucius can be expected to kill seven. So they both pile in. Kharn has 6 attacks, 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no armour saves. Lucius has 5 attacks, 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound.

Expected value of wounds on Grey Hunters (K): 4.17
Expected value of wounds on Grey Hunters (L): 1.67

So Kharn kills 5 Grey Hunters in total, before they can attack back, and Lucius kills 9.

Attacking back the Grey Hunters, supposing the best equipped survived, we have 5 attack Kharn with one having 1D6 Rending attacks, another with 1-2 Power fist attacks, and three with 6-9 attacks. We have 1 attack Lucius. Let's check for the Powerfist and the 1D6 Rending attacks, and the Banner for completeness. They hit on 4+, wound on 4+ (Powerfist on 2+), and the Rending ignores armour on wound rolls of 6.

Expected value of wounds on Kharn (GH): 1.68
Expected value of wounds on Lucius (K): (0.15, 0.29, 0.17)
The above ordered as Grey Hunter w/Banner, Mark of the Wulfen, Powerfist.

Consequently we can expect (0.08, 0.15, 0.09) wounds on the Grey Hunter from the Armour of Shrieking Souls. Rounding up and down as normal we can expected Kharn to take 2 wounds and win combat by a margin of 3. Lucius will take no wounds and win combat by a margin of 2.

That means that the Grey Hunter will have a 38% chance of remaining to face Lucius, while the other Grey Hunters, the luckier ones, will have a 27% chance of remaining. If the one facing Lucius breaks and runs, and he catches them (I6 vs I4), then it faces 2 saving throws for No Retreat! If the ones facing Kharn break and run, and he catches them (I5 v I4), then they face 3 saving throws. If No Retreat! is factored in, then it's likely that the remaining Grey Hunter facing Lucius will buy it (0.67), and one of the Grey Hunters facing Kharn will buy it (1.00).

Lucius can be expected to murder an entire Grey Hunter squad, regarded as the gold standard for infantry, with no cost to himself, while Kharn will muddle through with a couple of wounds and will remain locked in combat for another round.

How do you like them apples?

Block of text whoop whoop.
Basically: throw in lash, it makes things better...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Meh, it still doesn't look realistic to me.
The maths look good, but I'd rather see it happen and I just don't see Lucius used that often...even on the bat reps online.

Anyone find any bat reps with Lucius?

The problem with a battle report is that the player may misuse Lucius, and if we generalize from that single instance we will have been mislead about Lucius' capabilities. Even the expected value calculations I have done here are slightly misleading in that they'll distract the player from the consequence of not encountering the average.

If you're going to take Noise Marines, then Lucius is a great HQ. Back him up with a Sorcerer with the Lash of Submission, and no one will complain until Lucius gets into combat or uses his Doom Siren on a unit that's already been hit with a Noise Champion's Doom Siren after being Lashed into position.

Speaking of throwing Lucius out there on his own, yes, he is actually one of those Independent Characters that can thrive on his own: attach him to a unit of Noise Marines and have them camp an objective: he'll grant some protection in close combat, and if something big and slow closes with the Noise Marines he can rush out and lock it down. Avoid Dreadnoughts at all costs though.

Lash is to harsh i think, lash them up with magical rope and blast then to smithoreens with brain melting volume. I can see my friend getting really annoyed with it... I would also like to see some Lucius Bat reps, the brain boggoling awesome maths makes me wonder why he isn't used more often...

A smart SW player will remove casualties from those able to be assaulted, so unless you start off in perfect range, after killing so many with a shooting attack a unit (including Lucius) will often not get to charge at all.

Anyways, Nurglich suggested the following HQ in another thread, and I like it quite a bit:

Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Familiar, Warp Time.

Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Familiar, Warp Time.

Basically, you pay more for more flexibility... too bad you can't use both. edit (at the same time)

willydstyle:

That's why I qualified with the Lash of Submission affecting the unit so that neither Lucius nor Kharn need to charge more than 1". While smart players will use the casualty removal system to prevent an assault, you can mitigate it by using the Lash of Submission, shooting from an awkward side (making sure that the casualties that would have to be removed would be useful and important ones), not maximizing the number of casualties so that even if you get lucky you won't killl enough to be left out of combat, and making sure you close to point blank (1") in the Movement phase.

So smart players will avoid charges by dumb players, but smart players can get the charge (barring difficult terrain): they just have to judge how much shooting is too much shooting.

Actually, Nurglitch, the rules for template weapons state "the template must be placed to cover as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models." The key to fixing the issue is the second part of that rule. If you can get a friendly model in front of him you can control the template, but you have to be careful about how you place the model so you don't keep Lucius from the front line in the ensueing assault and be good at eye-balling just how much you'll move the template (you don't want to hit nothing, after all).

Well yeah, how else would you do it?

You wouldn't, which is why I was pointing it out. For someone who didn't know, they might try playing it wrong. If nothing else we should be correct.

Against chaos, every wolves player would take rune priest, and your psychics fail often.

In actual combat, when you are charged, you are not in solo (IC can only leave unit in your own turn), so you would never got the chance to take that many saves on Lucius himself.

If the ork player's brain has not be replaced by a squig yet, he would allocate the attacks from boyz to Lucius's companions, and the PK attacks to Lucius himself.

Lucius would be scarier if he had more attacks and his special armour granted a 3+ invulnerable save. He could do a lot of damage versus things like terminators and other independent characters then, becoming a very deadly 1on1 duelist. Having S5, using fluff to explain it via combat drugs, or even better feel no pain would be great too.

Imagine feel no pain. Now when he passes armour saves he hurts you, but half of the times he fails his save, he recovers. These don't do wounds to the enemy, but it keeps him alive long enough to continue to dish out damage. GW just doesn't know how to design good characters half the time. Vulkan? GREAT character. Good against hordes, good against monstrous creatures, good shooting weapon, army-wide buff, and durability. Broken? Not really, though people complain about the very-tailored vulkan list. Assuming the entire list isn't COMPLETELY spammed out to abuse his rule, he's really a good, solid character with a lot going for him.

Not so much characters like Lucius, which is a weaker chaos lord with a suicidal quirk. Agreed that the lash makes him a conundrum since it reduces enemy attacks, yet he's trying to get hurt. Also they did what they always do with chaos and gave him REALLY HIGH WS YARGH! When really something like Preferred Enemy is both more appropriate for a duelist and better in-game. His old Martial Pride rule about being reduced to 2 base attacks versus a bunch of WS2 scrubs, and moving to base 5 when touching someone WS5 was awesome. Such things are gone in the new chaos codex.


But back to the discussion! A Nurgle lod with a daemon weapon is a solid choice. Wounds anything on a 4+ so he can be useful against wraithlords and such, and he's great at killing MEQs since he gets to re-roll wounds against anything T4 or less. Typhus is pretty neat too since he gets that benefit AND can use his force weapon effect on said wounds. Put the nurgle lord on a bike and all you really fear is A) stabbing yourself with the daemon weapon and B) powerfists.

And, though you don't like princes, I think you assumed lash princes. A Tzeentch daemon prince with Warp Time and Wind of Chaos does very very well. 4+ invul, and a flamer template that wounds on a 4+ with re-rolls, plus close combat ability is really amazing. Not "broken" like people think lash is, but quite capable of being very effective.

MinionOfDaCube wrote:the chaos lord with daemon weapon and mark of khorne is rather entertaining in CC, with up to 15 attacks at S6 (or 5) with no armour saves allowed.

lets see the necrons get up from that!

17 attacks actually
3A (base)+ 1A (Mark of khorne) +1A (Charge) + 2D6 (Daemon Weapon) = 0*-17 attacks

*when a 1 is rolled for determining the number of attacks, no attacks are made.

lordrevege wrote:

MinionOfDaCube wrote:the chaos lord with daemon weapon and mark of khorne is rather entertaining in CC, with up to 15 attacks at S6 (or 5) with no armour saves allowed.

lets see the necrons get up from that!

17 attacks actually
3A (base)+ 1A (Mark of khorne) +1A (Charge) + 2D6 (Daemon Weapon) = 0*-17 attacks

*when a 1 is rolled for determining the number of attacks, no attacks are made.

But it's only Str 4, or 5 if you're on a jugger.