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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/12 17:43:08
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Napoleonics Obsesser
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Ahriman is a total badass,he gets to use three psychic powers per turn!
I'd use him,but he's 260 points,ouch. I'd just go for abaddon if I was paying that much!
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If only ZUN!bar were here... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/12 21:35:09
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller
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My Khorne Lord, DW, Juggernought has only hit himself 5 times out of 20 time that I've run him. For me his major bonus's are being able to take out a squad (or whatever they are) of Carnofex's, and pretty much any horde coming his way. On the downside, he does hit himself, Can't ride in a transport like Kharn, and him and his squad (berzerkers) tends to be the focus of a lot of ranged fire, if people understand the horrendous amount of damage he can do once he reach's combat.
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Brb learning to play.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/14 13:12:41
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle
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@Mozzyfuzzy:
Or just out pace his slow-sloggin-ass.
@Samus_aran115:
So what if he can use 3 powers?
Shooting wise, he can't use 3 winds or 3 doombolts, only a rainbow variety which isn't very effective.
After which he is only left with 2 specific bonuses:
1. Triple Gift.
2. Shooting power, followed up with Warp-time-Force-Weapon.
All that for more than a Land Raider...feth no IMO. GW shafted him hard...but I don't mind as he is a total newb.
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This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/14 14:05:50
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Loricatus Aurora wrote:I wonder if you could unload Kharne onto one enemy infantry squad (solo) out of LR front door, leave the zerkers inside, blast something with the TL Godhammers then next turn drop the zerkers onto another infantry squad -
My guess is Kharne would clean up first squad in a few turns, he cannot be shot due to CC or go betrayer on 1s, and your zerkers then engage a second squad with potential to bounce around later
Demon weapon from memory reads if you roll a 1 on the D6 (2D6 for Khorne) you get NO attacks - thats a scary prospect given there is only 5-7 turns per game and your not going to be in combat every turn
TBH Kharn doesn't usually do that well solo. He puts out a lot of attacks, but he doesn't deal with damage very well. He's only got 3 wounds, T4, power armor and a 5+ invul. And you can instagib him with a fist. He really needs a unit with him unless you assault a Dread or unit of Kanz with him perhaps...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/15 22:45:38
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Frater Militia
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Kharn has been disappointing every time I've used him.
Nuggz is exactly right that his stats are just not good enough to validate his place on the field, even with an Assault Squad.
TWICE (2 times), he's been out there with the Colorwheel of Death ( 7 Berserkers each painted one of the ROYGBIV spectrum), and BOTH times... he's been singled out and gunned down.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/16 00:54:37
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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The Muppetizer wrote:Kharn has been disappointing every time I've used him.
Nuggz is exactly right that his stats are just not good enough to validate his place on the field, even with an Assault Squad.
TWICE (2 times), he's been out there with the Colorwheel of Death ( 7 Berserkers each painted one of the ROYGBIV spectrum), and BOTH times... he's been singled out and gunned down.
What are you throwing them at, that they can retaliate after taking a mauling from that? How are you getting Kharne and the CoD to the fight? I have a sinking feeling you footslog them, given that you said "gunned down."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/16 02:35:50
Subject: Re:Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator
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I don't know about most effective or best or whatever, but I have a lot of fun with these two:
Sorcerer: Wings, Melta bombs, Warptime
1. Best supporting unit (if possible) - ie Abbadon with termis
A squad of raptors 6-10 strong w/ melta guns. I like speed and these guys can get around.
2. Preferred entry to field - ie DS onto icon vs LR assault
Wings and Jump Packs....
3. Best use of HQ (incl supporting unit) - ie counter assault, terror etc
These guys are great for destroying units w/ low CC effectiveness (i.e - guardsmen) or popping just about any vehicle they get close to.
4. Strengths of that HQ to exploit
Warptime is an amazing ability. Coupled w/ a force weapon and you can do some serious damage to special characters or units w/ no invulnerable saves. I once assaulted, broke, and overran a blob of 30 guardsmen w/ JUST the sorcerer.
5. Weaknesses of the HQ to manage against / minimise
You don't want to deepstrike unless you HAVE to. This means that these guys are vulnerable to barrage weapons and lon range sniping units. Be careful...
6. Best looking model for your recommended HQ
I made mine from parts I took from the terminator lord box. It worked out quite nicely. I just used the staff, head piece, and some gubbinz combined with a Champion's body pieces and a Tzeentch shoulder pad.
Huron Black Heart: Count as Deidrian The Soulless.
1. Best supporting unit (if possible) - ie Abbadon with termis
I actually run this character w/ an 8-man squad of plague marines including 2x plasma guns. It makes him almost impossible to kill.
2. Preferred entry to field - ie DS onto icon vs LR assault
Standard Rhino
3. Best use of HQ (incl supporting unit) - ie counter assault, terror etc
Hmmm....more of a CC monster. With the option of firing a heavy flamer before the charge and then getting to choose a pwr weapon at I:5 or a pwr fist at I:1 is awesome! Warp Time also helps a lot. He's a badass.
4. Strengths of that HQ to exploit
The weapon options. He can choose to attack with a power weapon or a power fist. Awesome!
5. Weaknesses of the HQ to manage against / minimise
Monstrous creatures whoop him bad. Stay away from them!
6. Best looking model for your recommended HQ
I used a Berserkers body combined with a terminator's power fist, a CSM head (the one w/ the top knot, but cut the knot off), and a Khorne chain axe that I modified to have two blades instead of one. Or I guess you can buy the actual model. I like converting stuff!
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"One man's trash is another man's Warhammer 40k terrain..." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/18 01:41:13
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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I also in my experience have seen Kharn do wonders, he can slaughter even terminators on his own.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/19 04:10:53
Subject: Re:Most effective HQ for CSM?
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A Skull at the Throne of Khorne
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In my experience, a Daemon Prince with Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, and Lash of Submission has been awesome. However, Sorcerers with Mark of Tzeench, Warptime, and Bolt of Change are pretty good, too. Also, Kharn is an excellent close combat CSM special character, probably the best special character in the codex, but he has to be put with a squad of Berserkers in a transport (preferrably a land raider) to be really effective.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/19 13:28:57
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The Muppetizer wrote:Kharn has been disappointing every time I've used him.
Nuggz is exactly right that his stats are just not good enough to validate his place on the field, even with an Assault Squad.
TWICE (2 times), he's been out there with the Colorwheel of Death ( 7 Berserkers each painted one of the ROYGBIV spectrum), and BOTH times... he's been singled out and gunned down.
Whoa, I never said he isn't worth taking. I said that he isn't worth taking alone. He's arguably the strongest H2H character in the game, especially for his points. Conversely, he's 100% offense, but 3 wounds, T4, no eternal warrior, and a 3+/5++ save basically all mean that he needs to be with a unit, and in that first round of combat they need to pretty much wipe whatever you throw them at or that hidden powerfist is going to give it to him good.
I've played games where he and his Berzerkers have done phenomenally. In one game, they crunched Ragnar and 2 squads of 10 Grey Hunters, then went on to rip a Land Raider in half. In another game, he and his squad ate through 5 BA FNP Assault Terminators, a Sanguinary Priest, a Furioso Dreadnought, a Land Raider, and a Reclusiarch.
Offensively speaking, they're brutal, absolutely brutal if you get them into combat at the right time. Ideally they're in there with multiple units. And if it's looking like it's going to be a big cluster****, I try to get a squad of Plague Marines in there too to deny the charging bonus to the newcomers.
I feel like if you aren't getting your points' worth from Kharn, you aren't using him correctly, or maybe he just doesn't work in your particular metagame.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/19 21:44:55
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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NuggzTheNinja wrote:or maybe he just doesn't work in your particular metagame.
I can't think of a situation where the application of Kharn wouldn't result in a good thing for you.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/19 21:49:15
Subject: Re:Most effective HQ for CSM?
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A Skull at the Throne of Khorne
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Kharn's fantastic. He gets 6 attacks on the charge, furious charge, pretty high initiative, power weapon, always hits something in combat (even his own guys), and can tear a land raider apart. He's also only 165 points, while chaos lords with a bunch of upgrades can be a lot more than that. If you put Kharn with some berserkers in a land raider and drive them around slaughtering everything, almost nothing can stop them. I don't see a reason not to take him.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/19 22:15:03
Subject: Re:Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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Daemon Prince, Kharn and Sorceror, in that order.
As for which is the most fun, Kharn easily.
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Tyranids
Chaos Space Marines
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/19 23:08:47
Subject: Re:Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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quagplah9 wrote:Kharn's fantastic. He gets 6 attacks on the charge, furious charge, pretty high initiative, power weapon, always hits something in combat (even his own guys), and can tear a land raider apart. He's also only 165 points, while chaos lords with a bunch of upgrades can be a lot more than that. If you put Kharn with some berserkers in a land raider and drive them around slaughtering everything, almost nothing can stop them. I don't see a reason not to take him.
7 actually. 5 base, weapon in each hand, charging.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/20 02:23:59
Subject: Re:Most effective HQ for CSM?
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A Skull at the Throne of Khorne
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7 actually. 5 base, weapon in each hand, charging.
Right. My mistake. I forgot the attack for the weapon in each hand. This just makes Kharn all the better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/20 05:45:14
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Fixture of Dakka
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I always run two winged lash princes when I play CSM. They are the best by far.
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/20 08:13:30
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Hellacious Havoc
Northern VA
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I also prefer the Demon Prince. It's just too solid. I enjoy the Lash Prince, 5 attacks on the charge, 3+/5+ and initiative 6 is great. Eternal warrior = no instant death which is amazing too.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/20 08:14:48
"Do they speak ENGLISH in WHAT!?!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/06/20 09:56:32
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Hierarch
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NuggzTheNinja wrote:Ed_Bodger wrote:Loricatus Aurora wrote:What is concensus on Khorne lord with either demon weapon or more normal stuff (pw, lc, fist etc)? ie teaming with zerkers in LR for nasty assault unit
This, I use this and absolutely love it. It is an awesome unit and pretty cheap. Knorne Lord + Deamon weapon + 8 Berzerkers + Skull Champion with PF. BLOOD FOR THE BLLOD GOD and all that stuff.
Why not just run Kharn then? He's not much more expensive, doesn't hit *himself*, and adds a bit of antitank capability to the mix.
Sure he might kill your own guys but...
Because Lucius is the better solo artist.... always has been in this book.
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Things I've gotten other players to admit...
Foldalot: Pariahs can sometimes be useful |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/07/25 12:58:22
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Utilizing Careful Highlighting
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Returning to this old thread I played a 100% Khorne list today at 1750
Kharne and 9 khorne marines ate my Ironclad Dread, my Relic Blade Captain and accompanying tactical squad (incl fist SGT) before Lysander hit him.
He is one very very scary MF on the board.
I pulled my landraider off heading for the opponent's objective (which cost me secondary mission) to bring 5 assault terminators and lysander to the party.
And Kharne had finished with the tactical squad, my captain and the IC Dread (and 2 of his own men) when the termies arrived so he then took two of them down before they got to try and hit him!
In a LR moving 12, 2 disembark, 6 charge he represents a really scary threat range.
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Aurora SMs in 5th Ed (18 wins, 3 draws, 13 losses)
1st in Lords of Terra Open (Sydney) 2012
Aurora SMs in 6th Ed (3 wins, 0 draws, 5 losses))
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/07/25 21:10:39
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
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Ed_Bodger wrote:Loricatus Aurora wrote:What is concensus on Khorne lord with either demon weapon or more normal stuff (pw, lc, fist etc)? ie teaming with zerkers in LR for nasty assault unit
This, I use this and absolutely love it. It is an awesome unit and pretty cheap. Knorne Lord + Deamon weapon + 8 Berzerkers + Skull Champion with PF. BLOOD FOR THE BLLOD GOD and all that stuff.
I could not have said better the ultimate close combat unit I would also add an Icon of Chaos to it.
Here is my old Demon Prince w/ Demon weapon
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/07/25 21:15:17
Chaos rules you all drool! Blood for the Blood God!
10,000 pts Black Legion
2,000 pts Traitor Catchian Guard (1067th).
8,000 point Sam Hain Eldar.
2,000 pts Squat Biker Force.
1,500 Orc Hoard (painting for a friend).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/07/25 22:22:22
Subject: Re:Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Fickle Fury of Chaos
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I always found a terminator Tzeentch sorcerer worked best, he isn't very mobile but you can deep strike him into the back of enemy lines with a retinue of maybe 3 or 4 termies and blast away with wind of chaos.
the drawback however, is trying to keep him alive long enough for your other units to assist: thus the termie armour XD
best tactic for him is a 'hit 'em hard and fast' and try to do as much damage as possible
hope I helped
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/07/25 22:36:19
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Angry Chaos Agitator
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I personally only consider the use of 2 choices.
Flying Daemon Prince with Lash - amazingly cheap 155 points.
He's mobile and flexible. Lash is worth every single point. Moving an enemy 7" or more (and able to form them into a ball for flamethrowers.) is something there are no alternatives to.
It can basically let you charge something 19-24" away with foot troops. Move up, lash enemy to run towards you, assault move to them. I was fighting a Tau and was able to use Lash to get his HQ shooty crisis suits into assault with my terminators.
Also I've lashed stuff like a huge squad of Hormagaunts. Had them run 10" AWAY from my army so I had extra time to shoot his big stuff dead, etc.
The Daemon Prince is pathetically weak in combat though. He has no bodyguards and so will die instantly. He gets no re-rolls to hit and no re-rolls to wound and few attacks, so he's a real sucker. He's just used for the 2d6 movement of enemy units (worth every point.)
When I want a character for combat, I use Typhus. 225 points for 5 to 10 attacks on the charge. All those attacks never need more than 4+ to wound AND If a single attack wounds, the enemy instantly dies from the force weapon. Ignores armor saves.
Typhus auto-passes all psychic tests. So his force weapon is 100% reliable. His flamethrower wind of chaos is 100% reliable. And his nurgle's rot.
2+/5+ is good armor. 4 wounds is great. And he can hide inside a bodyguard unlike any daemon prince.
Typhus can walk up to a 200 point Trygon killing machine and instantly kill it in combat before it even gets an attack (I5 for typhus, I4 for Trygon.)
Plus the enemy attacks and only kills random terminators or chaos marines bodyguarding Typhus. I love him.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/07/26 00:18:57
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Most likely a daemon prince. They dont cost much, are versatile, good ini, just alround badass
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/07/26 00:38:42
Subject: Re:Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
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1. Nurgle Raptors with a Sorceror/Chaos Lord with a Jumppack/Disc going along with them.
The nurgles have to be bumped up with power weapons though.
2. Land Raider assault, or standing still with Defilers
3. Daemon Prince - Give wings and either hide behind a LR and move forward, or hide behind something and pop out to counter assault. Wind of Chaos is a must.
Chaos Lord - Khorne Daemon Weapon (Or just use Kharn) stick with Berzerks, LR is always nice too.
Sorcerer - When popping tanks, give Tzeentch, Disc, and Raptor squad with Power Fist. Anything else, deploy 2 of them with Lashs.
4. Daemon Prince - Super Strong against infantry, especially with Wind of Chaos to thin them out. Also monstrous, great at popping anything less than a LR.
Chaos Lord - Even better against everything than the Daemon Prince with Khorne Daemon Weapon, also can go with a squad and LR meaning he isn't alone in an assault.
Sorcerer - Good all around
5. Daemon Prince - Has to work by himself unless another unit is nearby. He also can't take out whole squads at once, meaning Power Fists will bring him down
To minimize this, don't take him...
Chaos Lord - Mephiston... anything that can instant death him. STAY AWAY from Librarians (Vanillia can use Quickening and hit first) (Blood Angels will probably have furious charge, Str 10 hits, and or Preferred enemy) (Space Wolf ones die easily, but of course you might not even make it, with them dropping jaws and such on you) Power fists and such aren't as bad because they strike last, and if you're charging, you're even striking before most enemys you'll be fighting, Zerks plus Daemon Weapon means you'll most likely wipe them out.
Sorcerer - With Raptor squad, he's always vulnerable after the assault. With Lash Whips, he may have to get a bit close to the enemy, and is vulnerable to assault.
There isn't much of a way to minimize these except move them accordingly, and be lucky.
6. Sorcerer of course, I have mine throwing a ball of energy, or shooting a lightning bolt.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/07/26 07:24:54
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Utilizing Careful Highlighting
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@ Blood God
The use of lash if great for your DP however surely it makes sense to just use a Slaanesh Sorceror rather than DP for troops movement/lash? Then you get your bodyguards
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Aurora SMs in 5th Ed (18 wins, 3 draws, 13 losses)
1st in Lords of Terra Open (Sydney) 2012
Aurora SMs in 6th Ed (3 wins, 0 draws, 5 losses))
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/07/26 14:49:09
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Angry Chaos Agitator
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Loricatus Aurora wrote:@ Blood God
The use of lash if great for your DP however surely it makes sense to just use a Slaanesh Sorceror rather than DP for troops movement/lash? Then you get your bodyguards
If you're using him for the Lash, he doesn't need to get stuck in. His job is to act as traffic-control-officer. He hides peeking out of cover of things and directs the enemy where to walk.
Also, flying sorc is 145, flying daemon prince is 155. Daemon prince can't be killed in 1-shot, has 4 wounds, and stands a chance of scratching a tank (unlike sorcerer.)
A slaanesh sorcerer would require buying a bodyguard to stay with him. It also has downsides. His bodyguard can ONLY shoot or assault the thing he lashes. If he lashes a T6 2+ save tyranid monster who is 24" to walk it backwards, then his marines can't use their bolter shots on the hormagaunts. Also, if I remember correctly, if he's inside a unit with a flamer, he's not allowed to lash the target into position before shooting the flamer since they fire simultaneously. Gotta do the flamer and then move them after all shooting.
Flying DPs are quite survivable as long as you make sure they fly out of LoS of most big guns each turn. With 12" move and 24" lash, they can usually use it from relative safety. Also, my DP has 4 wounds, if he loses 3 and then hides behind a house in safety then it's fine with me. The enemy just wasted a whole lot of shots that didn't kill my combat forces.
If I threw him with a squad of troops, that squad would have a large "shoot-me" sign. The other person knows as soon as he destroys the bodyguard, he can kill the sorcerer with a single lascannon shot.
I'd use typhus + bodyguard because I want them stuck into combats where his 6-10 attacks killing carnifexes instantly on 4+ happen. It's just more flexible to have the prince separate.
Last game I had Typhus + Bodyguard and Prince w/o buying bodyguard. Typhus runs towards tau, Prince yanks tau towards typhus, typhus beats them up. I didn't have to spend a single point on a bodyguard for the prince, and he ended up hidden behind two squads in combat.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/07/26 15:22:39
Subject: Re:Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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As for the Lash Prince vs. Lash Sorceror debate:
It really boils down to points here vs. FOC slots IMO. Same with Oblits vs. Defiler.
What's more survivable? Probably a Sorceror with a 9-man bodyguard in a Rhino. It's also way more expensive and less maneuverable.
What's more threatening? The Lash Prince. 2d6 armor pen in H2H "ain't nuttin to f- wit". His high toughness means that most non-h2h specialized squads will get pasted in h2h due to morale checks, and his high I means he's going to catch them when they run. His threat range is also insane if he's going to assault what he lashes: 12" flight, 6" assault, up to 12" of lashing. It's unlikely, but his max threat range is 30", minimum 20", average 25". That's NUTS.
The Lash Prince is also not an awful tarpit, even for units who take weapons designed to defend themselves against problem children. A good example is a Tactical Squad with a Fist. He'll probably take 2 wounds from the whole ordeal and tie up the squad long enough for something else to gangpile. He's 155 points, are you really going to cry if he does die?
At the end of the day, in big games you want survivability, in small games you want the threat. At 2,500 points, too many armies field things that can snuff a parkinglot full of Princes in one round of shooting. 5+ invul is nothing spectacular. In this case, you want the Sorcerors. At 1,500 points, he's probably going to survive a turn or two unless you really bung something up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/07/26 15:44:57
Subject: Most effective HQ for CSM?
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Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought
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To me the main selling point of the prince is that he's so efficient. The sorcerer is definitely a better survivor and with warp time probably a better killer too. Not having eternal warrior really hurts though. All things being equal go for the prince but if they have good shooting the sorcerer is a good fall back
AF
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