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Dear Dakka Community

What are the outstanding HQ choices for CSM and how best do you use the choice(s).

I would ask if you nominate a HQ option pls also detail things like:

1. Best supporting unit (if possible) - ie Abbadon with termis
2. Preferred entry to field - ie DS onto icon vs LR assault
3. Best use of HQ (incl supporting unit) - ie counter assault, terror etc
4. Strengths of that HQ to exploit
5. Weaknesses of the HQ to manage against / minimise
6. Best looking model for your recommended HQ

If you have a lot of experience playing CSM pls also throw in some comments about your experience with other 'good' HQ choices and your considerations behind not to use them in favour of your chosen - ie if you love the DP but found they always died too quickly.

I am building a CSM army and am thinking either a nurgle sorceror with familiar (warptime and rot) or the 205 DP (wings, warptime, wind, MoT) however pls respond to this article as above so its broad and other readers can get value too.

I would advise against Nurgle's rot, unless you play Ork or IG swarms, or something, but T5 Sorcerers are good, with Warptime and Wind of Chaos, instead.

Daemon Princes are probably the best, and you can't really go wrong with anything but a Khornate Prince.

1. Anything with Lash, they can clump units out of cover for the rest of your army to demolish.
2. Not quite sure what you mean...
3. Support
4. Can bunch up units out of cover!
5. Vulnerability to mass shooting, I would demolish any daemon princes with fzorgle, though the sorcerer in a rhino would prevent some of this, you lose some nifty things too...
6. Chaos lord of Khorne...

Point 2 relates to how would you enter your HQ and how would it get around

Example above is deepstriking Abbadon with termi retinue, could for example recommend Warptime WoC Sorc in LR with noise marines given their I of 5

Looking for a 'guide' to 'effective' CSM HQ thus my questions to try and elict answers with detailed considerations behind them

I prefer the Tzeentch DP. Covers antihorde better than rot due to wounding on 4+ plus rerolling with warptime. Has the option of DS but dont like to use the DP this way cause of not knowing what turn they will come in. Olbliterates infantry and has a good chance of hurting tanks. The one glaring weakness it has is small arms fire. Shoot him enough and eventually he will fall. Always keep close to cover to stay out of LoS until within 18". Ushabti Vulture with griffon wings looks great as a DP plus it costs the same as the current DP. Although if you can wait til August the new Fateweaver model looks awesome.

Ah, the slaanesh daemon prince with wings, and fzorgle is one mean mother...

It benefits the entire army, it helps you get into assault, it helps you get better shooting, in will destroy certain lists if it has certain units to benefit the prince, namely obliterators and plague marines. Sometimes vindicators can be nice, three vindicators with daemonic possession, phew.

Many players would regard this set-up as , though my army, and a few builds will give it a run, mostly high AV mechanized armies.

Its strengths are its speed, its battle-field manipulation and control, and its decent toughness and wounds.

It has weaknesses too you know!

For one, it is not an independant character, so it will be easy to kill it if you make a mistake.

Sometimes people put things in their lists to counter things like these.

There are alot of mechanized armies, and alot of psychic shut down going around...

What is concensus on Khorne lord with either demon weapon or more normal stuff (pw, lc, fist etc)? ie teaming with zerkers in LR for nasty assault unit

Sorcerers can prevent the HQ being picked off if you dont want to go the MC route. Sorcerers With the same Tzeentch Warp/Wind layout provides the same anit horde control and tank glancing opportunity as the DP but requires you to be close and out front which can be bad in CC due to him being picked out and not being fearless which will could make him flee if he loses.

Loricatus Aurora wrote:What is concensus on Khorne lord with either demon weapon or more normal stuff (pw, lc, fist etc)? ie teaming with zerkers in LR for nasty assault unit

I would have to question why you'd ever take a Khorne Lord when Kharne is available....

Fluff
Unpredictability

Having said that fair point

1. Best supporting unit (if possible) - ie Abbadon with termis
2. Preferred entry to field - ie DS onto icon vs LR assault
3. Best use of HQ (incl supporting unit) - ie counter assault, terror etc
4. Strengths of that HQ to exploit
5. Weaknesses of the HQ to manage against / minimise
6. Best looking model for your recommended HQ

Out of all the HQs, I prefer a cheap, cost effective HQ is best. An unmarked lord with terminator armour and a daemon weapon will set you back 140 points (power amour version 130 points). A cheap effective SC like Kharn, Lucius or Huron will set you back 160-170 points. A cheap sorcerer will set you back around 145 points (MOS, fzorgle, familiar doombolt). These HQs are best played in a classic style with a cost effective retinue.

1: I prefer a Khorne bezerker retinue as they are a cheap, effective CC unit. 8 bezerkers with a fast champ will set you back 208 points. 8 noise marines with a power weapon doom siren champ will set you back 208 points. I should also mention that if chaos had access to another transport that could carry more than 10 models like a LR Crusader then terminators would also be a good choice.
2: LR assault is preferable method. Not only will it protect your HQ but will also provide your most likely CC focused unit with some cover fire/anti tank protection.
3: Probably strategic assault. Don't just dump the LR containing this unit in the middle of the enemy zone but deliver it into vulnerable flank and let things take off from there
4: If accompanied by a decent retinue, the unit should rack up a decent number of attacks. I personally like to lay into vulnerable units that are not equipped to deal with them (like Fire warriors, Tac marines, Ork Boys) and try to demolish them.
5: Heavy firepower (you will attract this) and hidden power fists
6: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

I should also mention the DP as well. As they stand now, the best DP would be a cheap prince with wings and maybe a cheap mark or power like doombolt or warptime (130+ depending on if a power is chosen). A DP also plays differently to a classic lord/sorc + retinue. While a lord + retinue will try to smash key units and obtain as much KP/VP as possible, a DP will try to distract and disrupt (as well as smash the odd tank or two). However a DP will usually attract a lot of attention and if the DP usually does not have any assistance in the form of another MC, firepower or troop support then a DP will usually go down fast from enemy Lascannon fire/equivalent, elite CC units etc.

At the end of the day, there isn’t a right or wrong choice. Just whichever suits your play style.

Loricatus Aurora wrote:
1. Best supporting unit (if possible) - ie Abbadon with termis
2. Preferred entry to field - ie DS onto icon vs LR assault
3. Best use of HQ (incl supporting unit) - ie counter assault, terror etc
4. Strengths of that HQ to exploit
5. Weaknesses of the HQ to manage against / minimise
6. Best looking model for your recommended HQ
.

I'm a fan of Tzeentch Sorcerors.

Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime, Wind of Chaos 185pts

1: I'll throw them in a squad of Thousand Sons with a Rhino They make up for the lack of close combat skill Thousand Sons have while Thousand Sons with their 4+ invulnerable make it unlikely you'll be shot down.

2: Land Raider is obviously the 'best' but probably not the best for points. I use Rhinos since most of their teeth is shooting.

3: Picking off any expensive unit that leaves itself out of close combat within 18". Double wind of chaos with a warptime means even assault terminators are vulnerable. If you have another HQ with Lash it's nasty. 12" move into disembark into double Wind of Chaos + Thousand Sons firing, very little can survive it. Re-rolling to wound on Wind of Chaos is pretty mean since remember the Mark of Tzeentch allows two psychic tests.

4: You won't get blown away like a Daemon Prince by shooting. Though I don't mind pairing the Sorceror with a Daemon Prince so one can take fire or an assault and the other can drive up on a squad that moved into range and obliterate it. The Sorceror also has a force weapon and can instant kill things like Trygons and Mawlocs.

5: Hidden power fists. Best hope you make your invulnerable.

6: I think Ahriman of the Thousand Sons used as Joe the Sorceror looks the best of any model. This model here.

I always go with 2 DPs with MoN, WT & wings.

The wings are a must for the speed to keep up with the rhinos that they will be hiding behind, Warptime is good to either end the combat really fast or stay in combat to keep you out of enemy shooting but its a double edge sword for me cause I always roll double 6s, so luck is needed here. MoN makes you T6 which has kept my DPs alive loads of times compared to them being T5, the times this happened, you won't believe. That build is my fav when building DPs, scale down by removing WT.

Kharn is a monster!

I set him up in a LR with 5 KBs and watch them walk through units, try to multi-charge.

Chaos Lord with combi-melta, that's it.

I use it for when I need a cheap HQ and an extra melta shot.

Chaos Sorc. with lash

I run them as a pair, but like the DPs with WT, I've no luck with casting lash, I always get hit by perils of the warp.... but when it does pull off it rocks. use it to bring them near/ push them far or group them up for PC shots. But in a mech crazy edition, it's less effective due to less chances to use it and if it goes off, it can be "dispelled".

Those are the 4 that i've used in my CSM and my fav is 2 DPs.

Hope it helps

1-6: Daemon Prince with Wings.
The Spartan Prince is cheap and full of Awesome Sauce.

I'd throw in my hat, but without it my hair would get in my eyes. *crickets*

Anyway, effectiveness is always subjective but I run a Tzeentchian Sorcerer with Doombolt and Warptime. He runs with my Plague Marines for their assaults (on objectives). His invulnerable save lets him pull wounds that the Plaguers can't absorb (Plasma bolts) with relative safety. He's a threat at range, in CC, and dueling ICs and MCs. His weakness is his relative frailty. Random powerfists don't scare him so much, but if the enemy focuses him down the Plague Marines are vulnerable in close combat.

Ahriman,abaddon,Kharn,lash flying price

There ya go. Our HQ option stink right? WRONG. Lashies are some of the best HQs in the Game.

I personally am going with a lord with deamon wepon (and a combi melta if he can have one?) and a demonic steed (jugernaught) while hell role with my two ten man biker squads

Daemon Prince or Kharne. Thats it. Lash sorcerers can be acceptable but meh.

At 1,500 I run Kharn and a Lash Prince. At 2,000+ I run a pair of lash sorcerors. At that points value, I want 9x oblits and 2x Lash Sorcerors makes more sense for this. At 1,500, you want that heavy hitting HQ (Kharn) backed up by a strategic but heavy hitting Lash Prince.

The "most effective" anything depends on what you have in your army and what you want it to do. An un-equipped Chaos Lord, for example, is the most effective at costing the least number of points.

But to answer your questions:

Abbadon with Terminators is a bad idea, because they negate his Fearless. Obliterators, on the other hand, complement him very well. He can suck up wounds that would Instant Death them, attacks at I6 to winnow close combat troops that could kill them before they attack, and they make up for his lack of firepower. Plus they're Fearless, like him and both can use Icons for pin-point teleporter Deep Strikes.

Fabius Bile unlocks the cheapest and most effective Fearless troops (or the entire army if you understand "Chaos Space Marines" to include Chosen, Bikers, and Havocs). And also confers a Strength bonus. He's also pretty good in combat with units that have Feel No Pain since his own attacks cause Instant Death (but don't ignore armour). Give him a bodyguard of Enhanced Chosen with Power Weapons and you have a nice assault unit.

Typus is ideal for clearing massed hordes like the Imperial Guard, Orks, Tyranids. Nurgle's Rot is still effective against stuff like Sisters of Battle and Space Marines once you get into close combat to maximize the number of automatic hits, and factoring in his Daemon Weapon. If you're worried about Power Fists, remember that he's either assaulting with Assault Grenades, or defending with Defensive Grenades. Something to mention is that the effectiveness of Nurgle's Rot increases when you don't have to cast it, and unlike the Daemon Prince you don't have to give up Winds of Chaos (also automatically cast). The Nurgle Daemon Prince's larger base increases the casualty count, however, if it survives to get into combat.

Lucius goes well with Noise Marines, particularly if they're lead by a Noise Champion with his own Doom Siren, and is particularly good against those 'hidden' Power Fists that everyone seems to worry about but don't actually do anything. He actually does better on his own, so that the enemy's only choice is to hit him, so using him effectively is difficult: know when to run him out on his own and he won't be wasted.

Ahriman and Kharn both works best leading a unit of Possessed, though for slightly different reasons: they both want in close combat. Kharn does well with Possessed because they're only slightly worse at dealing out damage than Berzerkers, considerably more resistant to friendly fire from Kharn, and needn't be wasted camping objectives to try and win the game. Ahriman does well with Possessed because they give him a free hand with shooting, and once in combat give him the opportunity to start handing out Gift of Chaos up to three a turn. The weakness of these combos include expense, denial of Scout if you roll it as your Daemonkin rule, and in the case of Kharn: virtually no ranged firepower: at least Ahriman can open transports so that the Possessed can assault the passengers.

Huron has a Powerfist and Warptime. Warptime really enhances the reliability of his wargear, particular the Power Fist, the Power Sword, and his Heavy Flamer. Just remember you can use it every player turn. He's pretty inexpensive, but he's also a Swiss utility knife of an HQ. Put him in a unit of Bile's Enhanced Marines and you have a good all-purpose unit.

A Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Warptime and the Lash of Submission, and hiding in a unit of Possessed, is a better bet than a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, since the unit has access to transport, an option for a psychic power to use in close combat, and many more wounds. Also, the Possessed make the Sorcerer Fearless.

A Sorcerer of Tzeentch with Warptime, Doombolt, and a Disc of Tzeentch accompanied by a pack of Raptors is a wonderful thing, particularly if the Raptors have Melta Guns.

I just want to know how lash ended up as fzorgle...

S_P

demon prince with wings, mark of tzeentch and warp time

demon prince with wings, mark of slaanesh and lash of submission

demon prince with wings, mark of nurgle and warp time

sorcerer with wings, mark of slaanesh and lash of submission


Those are my favorites. Keep in mind the wing upgrades still allows the sorcerer to enter transports, unlike the jump pack upgrade. Just bounce him from troop to troop, lashing all the way.

1 Daemon prince
2 Start normally with wings
3 supporting front line infantry
4 being able to destroy vehicles, invincible
5 nothing, maybe a bit of anti-tank
6 The normal DP but there might be a new one out soon (plastic).

Space_Potato wrote:I just want to know how lash ended up as fzorgle...

S_P

Hello,

Here:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fzorgle

Enjoy.

So fzorgle has been adopted from one dude's rant back in 2007.

Dakka says its lash of submission however I think the original rant was for Lash Prince.

Sanctjud wrote:1-6: Daemon Prince with Wings.
The Spartan Prince is cheap and full of Awesome Sauce.

The Spartan Prince, indeed, is cheap and full of delicious Awesome Sauce Although my CSM army hasn't been coming out terribly much recently, I still haven't taken a marked prince for almost a year

DarkHound wrote:Anyway, effectiveness is always subjective but I run a Tzeentchian Sorcerer with Doombolt and Warptime. He runs with my Plague Marines for their assaults (on objectives). His invulnerable save lets him pull wounds that the Plaguers can't absorb (Plasma bolts) with relative safety. He's a threat at range, in CC, and dueling ICs and MCs. His weakness is his relative frailty. Random powerfists don't scare him so much, but if the enemy focuses him down the Plague Marines are vulnerable in close combat.

Get's a mention for a effective non lash or prince HQ. If you want advice on CSM but aren't terribly interested in fzorgle/plague/oblits (or its (almost) twin brother, fzorgle/plague/vindicators!) DarkHound always has interesting advice

Sanctjud wrote:

Space_Potato wrote:I just want to know how lash ended up as fzorgle...

S_P

Hello,

Here:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fzorgle

Enjoy.

I knew it would be the noise made when lashed. I knew it.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

S_P

Loricatus Aurora wrote:What is concensus on Khorne lord with either demon weapon or more normal stuff (pw, lc, fist etc)? ie teaming with zerkers in LR for nasty assault unit

This, I use this and absolutely love it. It is an awesome unit and pretty cheap. Knorne Lord + Deamon weapon + 8 Berzerkers + Skull Champion with PF. BLOOD FOR THE BLLOD GOD and all that stuff.

Ed_Bodger wrote:

Loricatus Aurora wrote:What is concensus on Khorne lord with either demon weapon or more normal stuff (pw, lc, fist etc)? ie teaming with zerkers in LR for nasty assault unit

This, I use this and absolutely love it. It is an awesome unit and pretty cheap. Knorne Lord + Deamon weapon + 8 Berzerkers + Skull Champion with PF. BLOOD FOR THE BLLOD GOD and all that stuff.

Why not just run Kharn then? He's not much more expensive, doesn't hit *himself*, and adds a bit of antitank capability to the mix.

Sure he might kill your own guys but...

I wonder if you could unload Kharne onto one enemy infantry squad (solo) out of LR front door, leave the zerkers inside, blast something with the TL Godhammers then next turn drop the zerkers onto another infantry squad -

My guess is Kharne would clean up first squad in a few turns, he cannot be shot due to CC or go betrayer on 1s, and your zerkers then engage a second squad with potential to bounce around later

Demon weapon from memory reads if you roll a 1 on the D6 (2D6 for Khorne) you get NO attacks - thats a scary prospect given there is only 5-7 turns per game and your not going to be in combat every turn