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What I'm saying is, the only comparison within purely counter attack units is possessed vs. lesser daemons.

Other units are too different wrt roles for a useful comparison.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:DarkHound

How do you figure the ball is too big? It's an 8" oval with a radius of 3" in one direction and 5" in the other. The icon has a range of 6." that gives you 3" of wiggle room front or back plus probably about 5" left or right. Besides that you get to place the final circle, and icons are so dirt cheap you can have one or two in every squad.

I really just dont understand where you're coming from. In an army with say 4 troop choices you have 4 potential drop zones each of which has a fair amount of leeway for putting down your terminators. Can you really not find a 5x8 oval of non-impassible non-building terrain on your boards?

Yes they're in pie plate formation. All troops are when they deep strike. Do you then not deep strike at all? Templates scatter alot of the time and the terminators (should) have mark of tzeentch 4++. They'll live. IMO youre taking a fear based approach to the situation.
AF

It isn't 5x3. A 10 man terminator squad is a 7.87401575 inches by 4.72440945 inches oval since they have 40mm bases. No, I can't find an 8" by 5" oval of vacant space on my board that is also within 6" of an Icon. I will admit, my board has higher than 25% terrain; it is often played as Cities of Death. However, even at the local GW the only vacant spaces are on the of the board where nothing is happening. You have to remember it isn't just the terrain that gets in the way; valuable Deepstrike spots are almost always where you're fighting. Enemy and friendly models constrict where you can Deepstrike even more.

All troops are in pie plate position when they Deepstrike, which makes units who want to shoot need to be expendable, or units who want to assault (the following turn) not need to shoot. Termicide wants to shoot, and is cheap enough to be expendable; drop podding Ironclads are cheap; BA Assault combat squads are cheap and accurate. Did you know that blast templates are often more accurate than direct fire weapons? You have about the same chance to not scatter as your chance to hit with your ballistic skill, plus the acceptable scatter distance, ie the distance you can scatter and still land on models. When you have an oval that large, a BS4 Plasmacannon has a 66-78% chance to hit atleast 3 models, 55% chance to hit 6. That's with a small blast template: with a large template the percents are the same, just double the ammount of models hit. So yes, some of them will live, but not enough to be effective and certainly not enough to make their points back.

well if you really cant find the space then I guess you shouldnt take them. For city fight it wouldnt work. I dont have a problem finding that much free space where I play. I dont really fear the pie plates but as a hardened chaos player Im used to taking alot of risks. Take berserkers then. They too are consistently stronger than possessed. Anyway good conversation
AF

consistently stronger than possessed

Technically, no. You really can't compare those two units fairly as they are used for different roles. Similar, but different.

And at face value, the Possessed are stronger than Zerkers at all times other than Charging Zerkers who only meet the same strength .

Yes sanct you can compare them. They both have specific capabilities and cost a specific number of points. Either 1 both or neither give a good package of abilities for what they cost. Refusing to compare them isn't being fair - it's being indecisive. AF

You mistake my point.
Their roles are different. Application different. How you use them are different.

You can compare fruits for nutritional values and other statistics and numbers, but an apple is an apple and an orange is an orange...granted most people view the orange as a lemon.


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Honestly, (importantly let me repost that this is just my opinion) people that have no respect for possessed haven't used them and do not approach the unit correctly. Expectations and applications are all over the place.

At the end of the day, they are a functional unit. As functional as all the other Troop Choices, save Plague Marines as we all know Green is the Best. THe difference is that troops score and possessed don't,...as bad as that sounds, there is a nice thing about not being a scoring unit.

Well sanct I guess I don't really believe in making too many distinctions among unit roles. Off the top of my head I can only think of a few.... bring a unique tactical element (swarm lord eldrad vulkan etc) deliver a weapon payload (berserkers boyz genesteslers land speeders) hold an objective (anything scoring) provide mobility (dedicated transports).

You havnt really made the case why counter attacking requires a specific set of capabilities as opposed to just attacking. Near as I can tell they're both just delivering a weapon payload. AF

Possessed can tear it up on the battlefield. Im with Sanctjud on the fact that Bezerkers and Possessed while similar in appearance perform different duties. Possessed are better for counter attacking because they are at a constant strength 5 and with daemonkin they have the ability to tackle any unit. And their 5++ makes them tough against hidden fists or any powerweapons. Then they can buy icons to further enhance their ability. Nurgle makes them even better counter attack, Tzeentch gives a 4++ which is never bad, Slaanesh gives I5 which means going first vs MEQ.

Bezerkers are purely offensive and fail in the role of counter attack because without furious charge they are simply WS5 marines with a extra attack. They will die quickly to a lot of things if they do not get the charge.

And, idk how you can even begin to justify a 10 man terminator blob deepstriking. Your boards must be extremely devoid of cover. I play on generally 40% cover or more. Also another reason why this is just silly is plasma cannons and vindicators would love to see 10 terminators packed together as tight as possible.

mrwittwer
do you know what a chaos icon is? if so do you know what it does?
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:mrwittwer
do you know what a chaos icon is? if so do you know what it does?
AF

Yes, but im not so sure you do.

And to further that, icons have nothing to do with what i was talking about. Icons are all fine and dandy but you still have to have a spot to fit a rhino and a huge 10 man terminator blob. Do you understand that? The point is just because you play on boards with little cover doesnt mean the rest of the world does.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Jihallah
you know that chaos marines have icons right? you know what icons do right?
AF

You know what plasma cannons do right? Or Demolisher rounds? Or some of the other AP 1/2 blast/ordanance weapons do right?

I don't exclude terminators to just termicide or landraider squadrons... But I cringe at the thought of 10 terminators, lets say they are bare so 300 points of terminators, deepstriking.

"Oh Look, I just deepstriked a blob of terminators onto the field! Conveniently in the shape of the new you are going to tear me!"

Some seriously major going on here.

I really dont feel like going through this again. read the earlier posts in the thread this was discussed in great detail. AF


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Jillalah
so run them. man I have to think of everything.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I really dont feel like going through this again. read the earlier posts in the thread this was discussed in great detail. AF


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Jillalah
so run them. man I have to think of everything.
AF

I don't- for a reason. A friend of mine used to. He stopped enjoying watching his terminators die horrible horrible deaths. I've had walking terminators do a hell of alot more than I've seen a blob of terminators do, period.

Termiy Blobs are a gimmick...they are hit or miss...more hit or miss when they enter the game trhough deepstrike.

-Sanct.

sanct.
really my only point about terminators on this thread is they're a better buy than possessed.

the blob of 10 came up bc someone was saying you need a land raider to use them otherwise they'd take too many casualties when they deep strike. I suggested as a fix that they take the points they'd spend on a land raider and deep strike a larger block, so they can absorb the casualties.

Its not that I think a 10 man block is all that great. I said that on the other thread bc I knew it would get a reaction. which of course it did
AF


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Jihallah
whatever. I think thats awesome.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:sanct.
really my only point about terminators on this thread is they're a better buy than possessed.

the blob of 10 came up bc someone was saying you need a land raider to use them otherwise they'd take too many casualties when they deep strike. I suggested as a fix that they take the points they'd spend on a land raider and deep strike a larger block, so they can absorb the casualties.

Its not that I think a 10 man block is all that great. I said that on the other thread bc I knew it would get a reaction. which of course it did
AF


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Jihallah
whatever. I think thats awesome.
AF

So much

Agree to disagree...if only 40K Vassal didn't get their C&D, I'd so be challenging AbaddonFidelis's Termy blob against the Rock Star Possessed of my Crap Legion.

Agree to disagree.
What's 40k vassal?

I have a friend who runs Abbadon + a unit of possessed marines in a land raider to great effect. Its his deathstar unit.

@Dashofpepper:
It has many things going for and against it.
Since it's chaos, anything goes. But it just doesn't work to the strength of the Possessed, more to the strengths of Abby.

@AF:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=40k+vassal


But note, it did get its C&D letter.

Like that's stopping it. Some group somewhere is still updating it. We're up to 5.2 now, and there's something about 5.3 coming.

I think this topic is pretty much a deadend on these forums. We've hashed this out countless times to no real end. If you like them and want to use them there are articles/forum threads(as others have posted) out there to glean strategies from. The rest of course will continue spending their points on cult troops or other options to achieve victory.

I personally find them more expensive than their stat-line and random roll earn. Are possessed a bad unit? I wouldn't call them that. I just find other units that cost a good deal less to use until they get a second look/update to be what they should be.

In the lore they are elite killing machines capable of morphing themselves at will to whatever goals their general needs them to fulfill. Need stealth? The daemon mutates the host's body to have chameleon-like scales that blend in with the background. Need speed? They grow long swift legs. Need survivability? Hardened bones and a strong outer carapace, possibly even a warp-powered shield to repel stronger attacks. Essentially they should be the ultimate in either pre-game customization (ie customizable statline/powers, at a cost), or an oblit-like ability to mutate different powers as needed.

I personally despise the daemonkin roll they currently have. Can I use all of the different abilities well? Yes, but that is hardly the point. As the general we should be in control of the role these units play. I should be choosing if I need a stealth unit, or a front assault unit, or a counter-attacking unit. These are not spawn, they are not at the mercy of the chaos powers to decide what foul form they will be taking. Maybe after the update the daemonkin roll will be a purchasable upgrade for those that liked it.

These are one of my favorite units in the background/lore of the game and yet are probably one of my least used and least liked(aside from the cool models) units in the game and this should not be the way it is.

Should the OP use possessed in a LR instead of terminators? I can see that working out if you need a tough unit to take the brunt and keep on moving, but always look to see if those points would be better spent on more cult troops or even regular csms.

if they could roll 3 times on their ability's table they would rock.

AF and Sanctjud, look at my signature, send me a PM though, I always do enjoy matches of some type of mechanized (hopefully) force against another.

All the 'nids and bikers on vassal are a little dull, main reason I haven't played a match in a while.

Still playable, alot of people on dakka alone use vassal.

As for possessed in a raider, I already stated they're decent enough. Though you can use those points better.


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AbaddonFidelis wrote:if they could roll 3 times on their ability's table they would rock.

So would dark eldar wyches.

Hell, that statement is like:

Ah man, if razorbacks got THREE twin-linked weapons, they would be da bomb!

Sure, it is a bit of a stretch though you see the point right?

I'd go for a game against AF. Its unfortunate he can't hear me. If anyone wants to set it up I'll channel Dash's spirit to guide me. Hell, anyone want to go for a game?