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Firewarriors are not worthless: They have decent +4 saves, powerful weapons, excellent range. I have been using 5 x 6 man squads with varying success. If they get caught in a assault or wander into the sights of an assault cannon.....they die (although they dont always die as fast in CC...those +4 saves can pull you though a turn or two) but with that many Troop choices running around you can get 2-3 units to their objectives. KP can be a problem but this is war.

Try a 3 suit Firestorm squad (BC and MissilePod with MultiTracker)....that is 9 St5 and 6 St7 shots (at 18in) into a mob of Guardsman, nids, Orkses a turn.

Try a 3 suit Helios squad (FB, Plasma Rifle, and Multitracker)....this will destroy MEQs and there is no Gets hot with this plasma....wounding on 2s without Armor saves....(possible cover saves apply) that is 2-3 MEQs a turn....(Mathhammer will prove me wrong on that but.....)

I run 2 Shas'el commanders now and this has expanded my game greatly. Two powerful Crisis suits running around independently and killing what they shoot at....excellent.

And i cannot stress enough.....SHIELD DRONES!....expensive yes but they have saved many of my suits from Turn 1-2 deaths from Lascannons/missiles.....what is their weakness is multiple low strength shots.....

FA slots are definately weak...Deep Striking Drone Squads are dangerous when attacking rear armor on Tanks....
......I bought a few of the new Forge World Hazard Suits....but that option is not available to all.....

Railguns kill everything on the table....get as many as you can....

I keep Markerlights out of my army. (Most will say this is crazy but....i have not needed them, ill take them when i can fit a Skyray or a Sniper Group......they do assist and Seekermissiles are great but i do not go out of my way to use them.......)

Grakmar wrote:What Tau could really use is a cheap unit of all drones that have decent to good survivability and no attacking ability. And, give them some special rule about small size and being disposable, and let Tau shoot into a CC they're involved in.

That'd keep Tau really bad at CC (as they should be), but allow for some blocking ability to keep them out of CC as long as possible.

Actually have to agree with that one,

Something WS1, BS0, S1, T4, W1, I1, A1, LD10, 4+/5++: Stubborn

Also the whole Drones counting as units for Ld. rolls or CC casualties needs to be removed.....they are drones...they are there for dying.

While most of the changes suggested here are new, I personally believe they just need a generic update. Simple things changed, like ALL drones count as jet pack, so even marker drones attached to fire warriors can fire a markerlight every turn, or the Command & Control mode lets the leadership bonus apply for everything, not just target priority (which no longer exists). That kind of thing. Maybe some price tweaks and removal of 0-1 or 1+ units, as other codexes have gotten when going from 4-5th ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shrike325 wrote:

Grakmar wrote:What Tau could really use is a cheap unit of all drones that have decent to good survivability and no attacking ability. And, give them some special rule about small size and being disposable, and let Tau shoot into a CC they're involved in.

That'd keep Tau really bad at CC (as they should be), but allow for some blocking ability to keep them out of CC as long as possible.

Actually have to agree with that one,

Something WS1, BS0, S1, T4, W1, I1, A1, LD10, 4+/5++: Stubborn

An experimental rule I came up with a while ago is that when shooting into close combat, you can only shoot at BS3 if yours is normally higher. All shots that miss are instead counted as hits upon your own troops. For each hit, wound, or unsaved wound (not sure what'd be the fairest), -1 leadership for the shooting squad for the next turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melchiour wrote:IF Tau get anything good at CC it needs to be a 0-1 choice at best. I completely agree with the people who say Tau need a way to AVOID CC better. This is what I have wanted to see.

flechette drone - When your unit is charged by an enemy the drone intercepts the charge sacrificing itself to save the unit. In game terms it would detach from the unit and take the assault, keeping the unit out of CC.

Possibly some type of failsafe detonator for a "sergeant" of fire warriors, works even if he dies, or something like that?

Agreed on the drones not counting for Ld checks. Should Fire Warriors get a price reduction? They don't seem to "feel" like they're worth 10 points each. And shouldn't the Devilfish be less than 80?

What if instead of WS2 S3 they were WS3 S2? Or if their Strength was reduced to 2 and they got a points drop. I read "Fire Warrior" some years back, and IIRC they did get rigorous hand to hand training. Something about fighting with the bonding knife, wasn't it?

Additionally, on the subject of Fast Attack, are those Piranha worth anything? They look nifty.

M.

Infantryman wrote:Agreed on the drones not counting for Ld checks. Should Fire Warriors get a price reduction? They don't seem to "feel" like they're worth 10 points each. And shouldn't the Devilfish be less than 80?

What if instead of WS2 S3 they were WS3 S2? Or if their Strength was reduced to 2 and they got a points drop. I read "Fire Warrior" some years back, and IIRC they did get rigorous hand to hand training. Something about fighting with the bonding knife, wasn't it?

Additionally, on the subject of Fast Attack, are those Piranha worth anything?

I've lectured extensively upon the Dfish, and my previous point about a general update applies to them. In short: better armor, better guns, better transport capacity, more mobile ("skimmer") than a rhino. Only thing rhino has going for it is 2 shooting points. Now, in 4th ed, fishes were a steal at 80 points, as a rhino was 115 (IIRC). Now, with a rhino only costing 35 points, the devilfish is very overpriced. Maybe 40-50 for one.

I have used Pirahna in the past with poor results. I just cant seem to get them close enough to get the Fusion Blaster close enough for a hit.

Firewarriors.....i think 10pt is fair.....but they should have "Veteran" like upgrades....or Troop choices. How about BS4 Veteran FWs...make them 12 pts or something

Devilfish are very expensive for its (lack of) abilities. I also play IG and you can have a Chimera with a Multilaser, Heavy Flamer, Hunter Killer Missile and its passengers can shoot out of it for 65pts!! They should be 50 pts and then add on standard Tau upgrades.....(I have ran the Warfish variety by adding a Smart missile system and disruption pod....but that makes an already expensive APC almost too much (120pts i think)

Also making the "Defensive" weapons limit at St4 nerfed Tau Tanks big time.....

micahaphone: Do you have a dedicated thread for it or did I miss it in one of your posts?

Maybe FW need some kind of support weaponry? That Neutron Blaster seems like it'd be kinda beefy, and it's Assault so it fits in with the "no heavy weapon" theme they seem to have going for their bloody infantry. Short range, sure, but that's the only thing I could think of in their armory. Flamers maybe?

M.

They have flamers. They were one of the first (that I know of) with Twin Linked Flamers.

Sorry, I meant for the Fire Warrior squads.

M.

Ah. Ok. wait why?

A flamer means we have to be that close to use it. I'd be happy with 15 Inch RF range because it means I'm farther away from the big bad Space marine that wants to feed my Poor Fire Warrior the business end of his Pulse Rifle.

Yeah, probably not the greatest idea but I was just throwing out the "Support Weapon for FW squads" idea more than actually suggesting something.

M.

Gwar! wrote:

Infantryman wrote:I know several Tau players in the making. The other day I got a glimpse at a thread (that I can't find again) about certain Tau stuff being under powered, or over priced or something of that nature. I faced Tau in 3rd as Guard and always had a problem dealing with them; their long ranged guns murdered my Guardsmen and their seeker missiles did good damage against my tanks. It was a nightmare. But now it doesn't seem to be the case. What's wrong with Tau?

M.

3rd ed Tau ≠ 5th ed Tau.

5th ed Tau are underpowered compared to newer codexes, half their Wargear doesn't work and 80% of the units are worthless.

Correct. Railgun broadsides are still good, but apparently that's one of the only perks to the codex. Tau sucks at swarm, and gets destroyed by basically everything. Terrible army, terrible fluff.

this thread quickly delved into tau wishlishing/debating about the next update

Dogface 76 wrote:Firewarriors are not worthless: They have decent +4 saves, powerful weapons, excellent range. I have been using 5 x 6 man squads with varying success. If they get caught in a assault or wander into the sights of an assault cannon.....they die (although they dont always die as fast in CC...those +4 saves can pull you though a turn or two) but with that many Troop choices running around you can get 2-3 units to their objectives. KP can be a problem but this is war.

Try a 3 suit Firestorm squad (BC and MissilePod with MultiTracker)....that is 9 St5 and 6 St7 shots (at 18in) into a mob of Guardsman, nids, Orkses a turn.

Try a 3 suit Helios squad (FB, Plasma Rifle, and Multitracker)....this will destroy MEQs and there is no Gets hot with this plasma....wounding on 2s without Armor saves....(possible cover saves apply) that is 2-3 MEQs a turn....(Mathhammer will prove me wrong on that but.....)

I run 2 Shas'el commanders now and this has expanded my game greatly. Two powerful Crisis suits running around independently and killing what they shoot at....excellent.

And i cannot stress enough.....SHIELD DRONES!....expensive yes but they have saved many of my suits from Turn 1-2 deaths from Lascannons/missiles.....what is their weakness is multiple low strength shots.....

FA slots are definately weak...Deep Striking Drone Squads are dangerous when attacking rear armor on Tanks....
......I bought a few of the new Forge World Hazard Suits....but that option is not available to all.....

Railguns kill everything on the table....get as many as you can....

I keep Markerlights out of my army. (Most will say this is crazy but....i have not needed them, ill take them when i can fit a Skyray or a Sniper Group......they do assist and Seekermissiles are great but i do not go out of my way to use them.......)

Any chance i can see your list ?? im always looking for new tau builds

I dont know where i got this idea but i thorght it would be cool if devilfishs or somethin could get these big shields on them. work like gungan shields on starwars. hide the fire warrors inside with a 4+ save or something so they can hide from long range fire but after enemy units enter the shield area they arent protected.

Ledabot wrote:I dont know where i got this idea but i thorght it would be cool if devilfishs or somethin could get these big shields on them. work like gungan shields on starwars. hide the fire warrors inside with a 4+ save or something so they can hide from long range fire but after enemy units enter the shield area they arent protected.

Disruption Pod. Counts as a Obstructed target if firing from 12" away. So a 4+ cover save constantly long distance from fire. Works very very well for me.
Lol I never accounted them to gungan shields before. Good comparison man.

Infantryman wrote:Yeah this is something I noticed while browsing the current codex at a FLGS. A lot of the weapons are no longer ranged than any other standard weapon, yet the Tau lack the CC backup to have a contingency plan. Their big mechs have a nice anti infantry gatling weapon that has what, 18"?

have you ever noticedd that pulse blasters are just realy big pulse carbines. all the same stats sept for As1 and As3

Infantryman wrote:Making them WS3 on average and not giving them CC weapon configurations of some kind isn't going to make them good at CC at all.

Yup. the Ws3 is so wrong for a shooty army

As a Tau player with 4500 points in boxes gathering dust, I feel pretty strongly about this issue. As yet I've not seen any solution that doesn't turn our beloved army into Space Marine clones with railguns.

I don't want to be tough as nails or good in combat.

I want to play like Tau. To that end I think I could fix the Tau with three force-wide USRs: Relentless, Defensive Grenades and Hit and Run.

Relentless gives them the chance to keep moving and firing. Pulse rifles become gak-hot, but no more powerful or accurate. Markerlights become our best friend. Fluff-wise, Tau tech includes advanced stabilisers and targetting kit, allowing them to fire on the move.

Defensive Grenades means people don't get a bonus for attacking. Our technology doesn't make us strong, but it takes away some of your advantage.

HIt and Run represents the Tau's willingness to give up ground they can't hold. So Fire Warriors can drop out of 1 in 3 combats, Kroot more so, suits about half the time.

None of these are game changing, but they give us back an edge without overpowering us and - crucially - they make us play like the stories suggest we should.

syanticraven wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I dont know where i got this idea but i thorght it would be cool if devilfishs or somethin could get these big shields on them. work like gungan shields on starwars. hide the fire warrors inside with a 4+ save or something so they can hide from long range fire but after enemy units enter the shield area they arent protected.

Disruption Pod. Counts as a Obstructed target if firing from 12" away. So a 4+ cover save constantly long distance from fire. Works very very well for me.
Lol I never accounted them to gungan shields before. Good comparison man.

ya kinda what i ment.
i was thinking if it could protect any units close by also....(maniacal laughing).......
disruption pods give cover saves but a big shield would give invulnerable saves

Ledabot wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I dont know where i got this idea but i thorght it would be cool if devilfishs or somethin could get these big shields on them. work like gungan shields on starwars. hide the fire warrors inside with a 4+ save or something so they can hide from long range fire but after enemy units enter the shield area they arent protected.

Disruption Pod. Counts as a Obstructed target if firing from 12" away. So a 4+ cover save constantly long distance from fire. Works very very well for me.
Lol I never accounted them to gungan shields before. Good comparison man.

ya kinda what i ment.
i was thinking if it could protect any units close by also....(maniacal laughing).......
disruption pods give cover saves but a big shield would give invulnerable saves

There is precedent for it. Ork KFFs give a 5+ cover save and 4+ obscured save to anything within 6".

Indeed, there's an Apocalypse datasheet for a Tau Pathfinder Devilfish with stealth field generator that extends out past the transport...

Miraclefish wrote:

Ledabot wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I dont know where i got this idea but i thorght it would be cool if devilfishs or somethin could get these big shields on them. work like gungan shields on starwars. hide the fire warrors inside with a 4+ save or something so they can hide from long range fire but after enemy units enter the shield area they arent protected.

Disruption Pod. Counts as a Obstructed target if firing from 12" away. So a 4+ cover save constantly long distance from fire. Works very very well for me.
Lol I never accounted them to gungan shields before. Good comparison man.

ya kinda what i ment.
i was thinking if it could protect any units close by also....(maniacal laughing).......
disruption pods give cover saves but a big shield would give invulnerable saves

There is precedent for it. Ork KFFs give a 5+ cover save and 4+ obscured save to anything within 6".

Indeed, there's an Apocalypse datasheet for a Tau Pathfinder Devilfish with stealth field generator that extends out past the transport...

i expect that a tau shield would do more than anything a ork shield could do.

Ledabot wrote:i expect that a tau shield would do more than anything a ork shield could do.

Ork technology is incredibly powerful (when it functions) because they're more than happy to risk turning the universe inside out or causing a supernova if it'll make a loud noise. The Tau tend to try not to kill half their army to "see 'ow dis device works"...

But I was merely referring to the in-game precedent rather than the level of tech.

Miraclefish wrote:

Ledabot wrote:i expect that a tau shield would do more than anything a ork shield could do.

Ork technology is incredibly powerful (when it functions) because they're more than happy to risk turning the universe inside out or causing a supernova if it'll make a loud noise. The Tau tend to try not to kill half their army to "see 'ow dis device works"...

But I was merely referring to the in-game precedent rather than the level of tech.

dident mean to offend (if i did). I sopose i sterotype orks as being dumb disorginsed psychotic humanoids, kinda makes me wonder how they managed to get space level tech in the first place.

Ledabot wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:

Ledabot wrote:i expect that a tau shield would do more than anything a ork shield could do.

Ork technology is incredibly powerful (when it functions) because they're more than happy to risk turning the universe inside out or causing a supernova if it'll make a loud noise. The Tau tend to try not to kill half their army to "see 'ow dis device works"...

But I was merely referring to the in-game precedent rather than the level of tech.

dident mean to offend (if i did). I sopose i sterotype orks as being dumb disorginsed psychotic humanoids, kinda makes me wonder how they managed to get space level tech in the first place.

Not offended in the least fella!

And Orks do it because they 1) steal other people's tech (hell - they even looted their language, Orkish is low Gothic wiv sum changes 'cos it's eazier dan makin ur own wordz up) and 2) genuinely don't give two hoots about their own safety.

When Orks attack a planet, they don't use landing craft, they use Roks. They hollow out asteroids, fit atmosphere generators and two sets of rocket boosters. One set sends them hurtling towards the planet. The other kicks in to slow the landing. When it crunches into the ground, the surviving ones get out and go killin' stuff.

Of course being Ork tech a lot of the time the second set don't work and the Rok smashes into the planet with the force of a small atomic warhead.

Which, in the words of the Ork Codex, 'is almost as good as landing. And it makes a better noise.'

Miraclefish wrote:

Ledabot wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:

Ledabot wrote:i expect that a tau shield would do more than anything a ork shield could do.

Ork technology is incredibly powerful (when it functions) because they're more than happy to risk turning the universe inside out or causing a supernova if it'll make a loud noise. The Tau tend to try not to kill half their army to "see 'ow dis device works"...

But I was merely referring to the in-game precedent rather than the level of tech.

dident mean to offend (if i did). I sopose i sterotype orks as being dumb disorginsed psychotic humanoids, kinda makes me wonder how they managed to get space level tech in the first place.

Not offended in the least fella!

And Orks do it because they 1) steal other people's tech (hell - they even looted their language, Orkish is low Gothic wiv sum changes 'cos it's eazier dan makin ur own wordz up) and 2) genuinely don't give two hoots about their own safety.

When Orks attack a planet, they don't use landing craft, they use Roks. They hollow out asteroids, fit atmosphere generators and two sets of rocket boosters. One set sends them hurtling towards the planet. The other kicks in to slow the landing. When it crunches into the ground, the surviving ones get out and go killin' stuff.

Of course being Ork tech a lot of the time the second set don't work and the Rok smashes into the planet with the force of a small atomic warhead.

Which, in the words of the Ork Codex, 'is almost as good as landing. And it makes a better noise.'

lol. I wonder how may smart orks there are. they must be fairly minority.
back on discussion if GW was cool they would have thought that tau would make some kinda big shield that lets them sit back and pummal the enemy from long range. they would be great for FW if they had some kinda long range heavy weapons.
if it could be attached to a dedecated battlesuit type thing it would be cool as.

a Deployable shield would be cool that produces something like a 4/5++ but once failed it is gone. (like the shoot has just overloaded the shield and it breaks- like the Dark Eldar one)

Would be kinda cool I think and a feasible idea.

syanticraven wrote:a Deployable shield would be cool that produces something like a 4/5++ but once failed it is gone. (like the shoot has just overloaded the shield and it breaks- like the Dark Eldar one)

Would be kinda cool I think and a feasible idea.

could be considered a hevay weapon so that set up time is taken in to account

Ledabot wrote:

syanticraven wrote:a Deployable shield would be cool that produces something like a 4/5++ but once failed it is gone. (like the shoot has just overloaded the shield and it breaks- like the Dark Eldar one)

Would be kinda cool I think and a feasible idea.

could be considered a hevay weapon so that set up time is taken in to account

For that I would make it a 4++
But what radius would it be if anything, a small marker template for multiple? or for more points and one per army, a large one?

syanticraven wrote:

Ledabot wrote:

syanticraven wrote:a Deployable shield would be cool that produces something like a 4/5++ but once failed it is gone. (like the shoot has just overloaded the shield and it breaks- like the Dark Eldar one)

Would be kinda cool I think and a feasible idea.

could be considered a hevay weapon so that set up time is taken in to account

For that I would make it a 4++
But what radius would it be if anything, a small marker template for multiple? or for more points and one per army, a large one?

I would make it a large template on top of the shielding unit. that would give enough space for a fire warror unit to fit inside. could make it special issue or something. one of the equipment choises for a commander. It would be expensive thu. like 30+ pts.