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4M2A wrote:BS 3 kills an elite shooting army. Problem is when you look at the wound chart S5 isn't that much better against most standard infantry (T3 or 4). BS4 would be more useful, and is definately needed on suits.

Firewarrior also die very easy. Many armies can get into CC by turn 2. When you have lots of units (iG) this isn't a problem but when you have small units you need to be able to keep them out of CC) If the units had hit and run they may be worth taking.

Personally the easiest way to make them worth taking is a cheap fast vehicle with firing points (or open topped) so a good sized unit can fire out. That way they are mobile and safe while doing some damage.

Yes, Tau should have BS 4. That is kind of stupid. But how the heck could you get your Tau into cc that fast without actually trying? (just send in some kroot to slow down the enemies, simply move the Tau back, or Devilfish them away.)

Two turns using a kroot wall.

Tau suck for one reason; being a shooty army, they suck at shooting.

I completely disagree with giving them anything "assault" oriented outside of kroot and MAYBE another xenos race they allied with since the last 'dex. I do, however, think they need to do a few things:
1) Give them rules that work
2) Make firewarriors double-tap at 15"
3) Take away the drones coming off the tanks; it complicates rules and gives them a vast disadvantage in KP's.
4) Combine list entrys, simplify rules already in place (the fact that some markerlights only work for the unit that shot it, and some work for the army is way too friggin confusing... streamline it)
5) Keep weapons/BS's the same, these seem to be fine when a lot of stuffs twin-linked anyway (and pathfinders give you BS skill 5 anyway lol)

Tau CAN win... yes, maybe not against an uber-fast up in your face punchy army, but in a gun fight they can definitely hold their own. I'd also like to see some new devilfish/hammerhead variants, tau-specific rules (some army-wide rules would be nice), and probably some new crisis suit variants. I'd also say that the target tracker thing (whatever it is that allows you to target 2 units) should be streamlined some more; like only certain weapons can be fired with it (because honestly, if hes focusing on firing a flamer over here, hows he gonna be firing a melta over here too. Should be made to make more sense, like only missiles and stuff that would "auto" lock on)

Honestly i don't think much needs to be done to fix them, as to what that is, I couldn't tell. Either better close combat ability which is unfluffy or stuff to delay close combat which Could have balance issues. or something else entirely. I did like the idea of DT test grenades though.

Zid wrote:Tau suck for one reason; being a shooty army, they suck at shooting.

I completely disagree with giving them anything "assault" oriented outside of kroot and MAYBE another xenos race they allied with since the last 'dex. I do, however, think they need to do a few things:
1) Give them rules that work
2) Make firewarriors double-tap at 15"
3) Take away the drones coming off the tanks; it complicates rules and gives them a vast disadvantage in KP's.
4) Combine list entrys, simplify rules already in place (the fact that some markerlights only work for the unit that shot it, and some work for the army is way too friggin confusing... streamline it)
5) Keep weapons/BS's the same, these seem to be fine when a lot of stuffs twin-linked anyway (and pathfinders give you BS skill 5 anyway lol)

Tau CAN win... yes, maybe not against an uber-fast up in your face punchy army, but in a gun fight they can definitely hold their own. I'd also like to see some new devilfish/hammerhead variants, tau-specific rules (some army-wide rules would be nice), and probably some new crisis suit variants. I'd also say that the target tracker thing (whatever it is that allows you to target 2 units) should be streamlined some more; like only certain weapons can be fired with it (because honestly, if hes focusing on firing a flamer over here, hows he gonna be firing a melta over here too. Should be made to make more sense, like only missiles and stuff that would "auto" lock on)

Its a target lock and what it does is tell the suit pilot point arm A here and Arm B there, now pull the trigger. It does all the calculations needed and feeds it to the pilot.

I think its strange how the tau have seeking missiles, smart missiles, and missile pods. Are they trying to tell us that missiles from missile pods are blind and fly like rpg's or something? are they serpoded to be diffrent sized missiles cos smarts are s 5, missile pod missiles are s 7 and seekers are s 8

.......i seriously think we might b set up for failure in the next 'dex....but we should get something 2 stall close combat. and +1 BS....i think we could all make due with a couple of my ideas as well, but if they do decide 2 make tau combat army in any way shape or form, then we need aun'shi back....his ability was 2 damn good....

So they should have BS4 for sure. Mathhammering the rifles vs MEQ's:

12 guys firing at long range = 8 hits.
8 hits wounding on 3+ (2/3 of the time): 5 1/3 Wounds
5 1/3 wounds saved on a 3+ (2/3 of the time): 3.556 Dead

A full strength 10 man squad takes a morale check right there, and if it's a carbine unit that's 3-4 pinning checks you have to pass (which, admitantly, you only fail 16.67% of the time).

Or how about a squadron of these for fast attack: http://www.dorlingkindersley-uk.co.uk/static/html/features/starwars/technology_gallery/images/Battle%20Droid%20STAP.jpg



M.

Basic FWs shouldn't have BS4.

Marker lights should be cheaper and more available.

They are, however, supposed to be an elite shooting army. I suppose the marker light could be better overall but if it gives +1 to hit isn't that the same as making them BS4?

M.

DE WILL have you in combat turn 2, with an average 31" first turn move (uness they reserve)

What.

Why on earth?

How? Why god why?

Well, at least I'll be basing my Guard force around the Death Korps list...maybe I can fight back!

M.

Infantryman wrote:They are, however, supposed to be an elite shooting army. I suppose the marker light could be better overall but if it gives +1 to hit isn't that the same as making them BS4?

M.

The marker light requires spending points on another unit and creates different tactical decisions than just having BS4 on everything.

With Tau, you want their movement and shooting phases to be more complicated, offering more interesting decisions for the player, as they won't have an assault and melee phase.

What about Jetpacks? That gives Tau an Assault move. Just not an assault orientied assault move.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Infantryman wrote:They are, however, supposed to be an elite shooting army. I suppose the marker light could be better overall but if it gives +1 to hit isn't that the same as making them BS4?

M.

The marker light requires spending points on another unit and creates different tactical decisions than just having BS4 on everything.

With Tau, you want their movement and shooting phases to be more complicated, offering more interesting decisions for the player, as they won't have an assault and melee phase.

Very good point there. So we should stick with a marker light in unit X lighting up enemy A so that unit Y can attack them at BS+?

M.

EDIT: What about giving them Combat Squads? Surely an advanced race like the Tau would have something like that for their small, "elite" squads.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:What about Jetpacks? That gives Tau an Assault move. Just not an assault orientied assault move.

It's not much by itself, though.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:What about Jetpacks? That gives Tau an Assault move. Just not an assault orientied assault move.

It's not much by itself, though.

It would help us pulling off some manoeuvres like getting out DF rapid firing into the enemy and moving 6" back (i.e moving behind DF blocking assault)

They do have one good thing going for sure; they have a lot of Relentless stuff.

M.

True also combat squads is a big no, it is hugely against their philosophy -it is scene as barbaric. Maybe a new race in the alliance that is combat heavy but they would be costly.

I would like the drones to have more roles. Or maybe a technological advanced model of them.

Combat squads let Marines split into two, five man fire teams. With Tau it would be two of six.

M.

Oh yeah I was thinking combat as in CC not the SM combat squads, stupid me.

Helios is or flamer guys are the closest thing to CC and they often die once they deep strike, that is if you get then on the field before you lose...
I really cant be bothed to do the maths but they kill lke 3 MEQs.

So the only idea that seems to be relatively well received is that a unit that wants to shoot at BS4 has to rely on another unit to markerlight it. I suppose that's not too bad all in all. Would these Markerlights be 36" rapid fire or 36" Assault 1?

M.

I would make Pathfinder markerlights R18 assault, and marker drones R36, Heavy 1, Relentless, networked. I would also cost marker drones at 20.

I believe Pathfinders need to be mobile, but that many cheap long range markerlights would be overpowering.

Ledabot wrote:Helios is or flamer guys are the closest thing to CC and they often die once they deep strike, that is if you get then on the field before you lose...
I really cant be bothed to do the maths but they kill lke 3 MEQs.

There is also the XV9 Suit. It's not good at Close Combat, but it's good at Tying up non assault specialists.

Can be taken is Squads of 1-3, fast attack, t5, has Hit and Run.

My brother, a Tau player, and I thought about this: Long Barreled Heavy Gun Drones with Burst Cannon in FW squads.

M.

Sniper Drones?

And we have enough S5 AP5 in the Fire warrior squads.

I'm going to say this again as I do in all what tau needs threads. ... triple burst cannon devilfish. Make them high hard with a hard outer shell and a gooey center for capturing objectives. Also shield gens for vehicles to replace disruption pods.

Change it to triple Smart Missle Systems and you got a deal.

Now why didn't I ever think of using my own vehicles for cover... stupid stupid stupid...

Anyway, the main issue I have with tau, even while it's the race that got me into 40k, is they just can't shoot that well.

I'm not talking about needing BS 4, nor about markerlights. They just can't output enough to be considered a decent shooting army. Units are too expensive, some are useless, others have uses but take spots for NEEDED units.

Not just that however. In theory, markerlights are a necessity for the army. However, their cost is through the roof and to be working effectively you either need pathfinders or stealth teams with marker drones.

Imagine needing to spend 1/4 the points for a 1000 point list on one unit to make your army work. Now imagine what your opponent will think to do during their turn. Answer: Kill one specific unit, win the game.

The tau don't need melee, auxiliaries do this. However, kroot (the current best choice for melee) have two huge problems. They are incredibly frail and have no grenades. Go ahead and charge into terrain and watch what happens. This could be fixed by pinning a unit, but then they still attack at the same time.

If anything, I just want better options. Good options. More than one way to play and be reasonably successful. I want a codex full of useful units. I don't want to see half the units in the codex never fielded.

The stuff in the imperial armor books gives the tau some interesting options, massive flyers excluded of course. But even then the tau are outclassed in shooting by nearly every other race. Str 10 ap 1 is no longer our thing. Hell others have the same thing with the lance rule. I believe the only thing the tau have that is unique is the markerlights and I can only hope that when the codex is redone it feels unique and not a compilation of other codex scraps.