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Ledabot wrote:the codex says pulse pistols are S 5, ap 5 rangew 12" pistol. I so need to learn the 5th rules better

That is correct however the Pistol is only for units that use ejection system, Tau FW do not carry them

syanticraven wrote:

Ledabot wrote:the codex says pulse pistols are S 5, ap 5 rangew 12" pistol. I so need to learn the 5th rules better

That is correct however the Pistol is only for units that use ejection system, Tau FW do not carry them

im having a what if thing

Infantryman wrote:Quite right on Fleet; I had forgotten it was different. Well, how about a bonus to their movement speed or something?

M.

The main advantage Tau Fire Warriors get is the slightly longer range of the Pulse Rifle.

5th edition made all infantry move more quickly. This reduced the advantage of range. It can't be restored by making Tau infantry move even faster because the table remains effectively smaller than before. The Pulse Rifle being Rapid Fire can still only be used within 12 inches when moving, which makes you vulnerable to immediate assault.

Edit: someone beat me to it

How are firewarriors not good? Their guns own compared to most infantry.

BS 3 kills an elite shooting army. Problem is when you look at the wound chart S5 isn't that much better against most standard infantry (T3 or 4). BS4 would be more useful, and is definately needed on suits.

Firewarrior also die very easy. Many armies can get into CC by turn 2. When you have lots of units (iG) this isn't a problem but when you have small units you need to be able to keep them out of CC) If the units had hit and run they may be worth taking.

Personally the easiest way to make them worth taking is a cheap fast vehicle with firing points (or open topped) so a good sized unit can fire out. That way they are mobile and safe while doing some damage.

Marker lights are supposed to compensate for that.

Another way of addressing the problem would be to change Marker lights.

Several ideas:

1. Pathfinders should get Marker lights with R18, Assault.
2. Activate the marker lights on Gun drones, for free, as R18, Assault.
3. Make Marker drones cheaper, and allow them to be carried on vehicles instead of the Gundrones.

Giving them half their normal range and making them assault is counter intuitive. Makes them much closer and usually within the range of a lot more fire and any unit that can Run will probably CC them quickly.

With the range they have now that isn't such a problem.

How about 18" Assault 1 or 36" Heavy 1?

Gwar! wrote:How about 18" Assault 1 or 36" Heavy 1?

No! You can not have your cake and eat it, get out.

Although that would be a lot fairer, but something would need to change to get the choice, like a drop in Ballistic skill on the move or similar.

I like Gwar's idea. Being heavy makes them a lot less useful, Tau are meant to be quick but their markerlights have to stay still.

Another option could be keeping the stats the same but having a new unit. A unit of marker drones (like gun drone units) would be worth taking.

I was saying a long time ago to make the pulse rifles rapid fire 2. This means 2 shots if standing still, or 4 shots in rapid fire.

Then pulse carbines would need assault 2 pinning.

However that still doesn't solve the problem of watching guard penal legions defeat all our infantry in melee.....

The only defense I came up for that was a failsafe drone. Acts like the failsafe device in the codex, only small blast str 6 and would occur when the assault was declared. After all drones are expendable, tau lives are not.

Maybe even just have the drone act as a Flash Bang. It stops them in their tracks and halfs their movement next turn?

What about my suggestion of improving Defensive Grenades across the board?

OK, I've been toying with a few ideas since reading this thread, I won't post them all up, but here are the one most relevant at the moment

Fixing CC - IMHO having some form of "stand and shoot" is the best way of helping improve Tau survivability. I would suggest that the rule should come into effect when an enemy unit declares a charge, but before you move any models into combat, as this would allow the improvement to be purely defensive. Photon grenades as standard would also help.

I would also suggest that a model equipped with a pulse carbine counts as having assault grenades, that would allow you to have a (sort of) offensive unit, for those times when you do need to go and clear the enemy out.

Fixing mobility - Make the Devilfish a fast transport? Given the rules on disembarking, I don't know how much this would help, but it couldn't hurt...

I like the idea of making them BS4. More time at the range, less time at the assault course. Disagree on the rifle being rapid fire 2, however, as it's supposed to be a slower firing weapon than usual so it doesn't overheat.

M.

No it isn't. It doesn't overheat because the Tau actually know how their weapons work, so can fix the problems. They have lowered the power so they are safe.

My Tau do brilliantly for me against hordes, orks and Tyranids etc. But I have yet to experiment with necrons marines and so on, i'll try it out.

How do you deal with large horde units? In my experience that's what tau are worst at.

Honestly I feel the tau are the worst at trying to fight another army that is geared to shoot back at them. They do great against armies who don't focus on their shooting, at least until the melee starts...

Really? I find it quite easy to deal with shooting armies. I usually just use my long ranged weapons and JSJ tactic to stay out of their range and keep shooting. While we don't have a lot of guns we definately have the lobgest ranged weapons.

I disagree.

Tau have very few weapons with a range greater than 30, basically they have the Ion Cannon and the Railgun, the missile pod and the rail rifle. The Tau army really lights up under range 36, thanks to marker lights, the pulse rifle, and Crisis suits with J-S-J.

Most other armies have a variety of weapons with ranges of 30+. A clever enemy can outrange most Tau weapons by sitting in the 36-48 range band. Crisis suits are more easily picked off with lascannons, etc, thanks to true LoS. This leaves only the vehicles (protected outside 12 inches by decoy pods) and Broadsides (long range but low ROF) to deal with.

If the attacker moves into the under 30 band, he then needs to move quickly to the under 24 band to avoid being outshot by pulse rifles, which isn't very difficult.

He then needs to move quickly to assault range to get into melta/assault range of the vehicles and Broadsides.

A standard table is only 48 inches wide, remember.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is why Tau need mobility as well as firepower.

Depends on how you use terrain. I run as many suits (Many with TL missile pods) as possible and a pair (or sometimes 3) railheads. I am happy to sit back and shoot them, they have no chance of firing back at the railheads and the suits have 36 inches plus 6 inches of movement. While this isn't a great range if you jump back behind terrain they can't hit you back.

If they choose to sit back pulse rifles actually become useful, no other basic troops have such a long range and combined with pathfinders you can have BS 5 and S5.

I find that units like bikers pone up my guys because they can mve 18" and shoot and charge. real pain

4M2A wrote:Depends on how you use terrain. I run as many suits (Many with TL missile pods) as possible and a pair (or sometimes 3) railheads. I am happy to sit back and shoot them, they have no chance of firing back at the railheads and the suits have 36 inches plus 6 inches of movement. While this isn't a great range if you jump back behind terrain they can't hit you back.

If they choose to sit back pulse rifles actually become useful, no other basic troops have such a long range and combined with pathfinders you can have BS 5 and S5.

These tactics will work against inexperienced players who let you play the game the way that suits you.

Against someone who uses initial terrain placement and the width of his deployment area well, and takes the initiative, they will be far less successful, and the other factors will come into play more strongly.

How about making all drones jet pack, instead of "as owner", so that they can always shoot? If they were cheaper, that'd be nice, too. So up to two markerlight drones, that are able to fire at separate targets every turn, in a fire warrior squad.

(I'm sorry, but marker drones have target locks, right?)


@Ledabot: I might be misinterpreting you, but bikes can move 12", shoot, then assault 6". Sounds like someone might be cheating you, but then again, I might be misinterpreting you.

micahaphone wrote:How about making all drones jet pack, instead of "as owner", so that they can always shoot? If they were cheaper, that'd be nice, too. So up to two markerlight drones, that are able to fire at separate targets every turn, in a fire warrior squad.

(I'm sorry, but marker drones have target locks, right?)


@Ledabot: I might be misinterpreting you, but bikes can move 12", shoot, then assault 6". Sounds like someone might be cheating you, but then again, I might be misinterpreting you.

Dam. i will persent that to him....

4M2A wrote:Really? I find it quite easy to deal with shooting armies. I usually just use my long ranged weapons and JSJ tactic to stay out of their range and keep shooting. While we don't have a lot of guns we definately have the lobgest ranged weapons.

I regularly have to fight guard... sooo... hopefully you see what I am talking about. Against anything but I do just fine. Oddly I mainly fight infantry heavy guard that loves to go to ground and then use orders to get back up and shoot...

juraigamer wrote:

4M2A wrote:Really? I find it quite easy to deal with shooting armies. I usually just use my long ranged weapons and JSJ tactic to stay out of their range and keep shooting. While we don't have a lot of guns we definately have the lobgest ranged weapons.

I regularly have to fight guard... sooo... hopefully you see what I am talking about. Against anything but I do just fine. Oddly I mainly fight infantry heavy guard that loves to go to ground and then use orders to get back up and shoot...

I find guard quite easy to deal with actually. Once the blast mark attacks disappear.
I use my Hellfires for them, I usually pick 3 units beside each other, one gets a barrage from my Devilfish, the next gets Flamed to death off Hellfires then I Devilfish another one.
When thats over I jump my hellfires back. If I feel daring enough my FW unload and fire into the next unit a long/survivors.
That usually cripples one side of the board while my HH's SMS and 3rd Devilfish work on the centre a bit.

My biggest problem will be DE and fast moving Orks.

4M2A wrote:BS 3 kills an elite shooting army. Problem is when you look at the wound chart S5 isn't that much better against most standard infantry (T3 or 4). BS4 would be more useful, and is definately needed on suits.

Firewarrior also die very easy. Many armies can get into CC by turn 2. When you have lots of units (iG) this isn't a problem but when you have small units you need to be able to keep them out of CC) If the units had hit and run they may be worth taking.

Personally the easiest way to make them worth taking is a cheap fast vehicle with firing points (or open topped) so a good sized unit can fire out. That way they are mobile and safe while doing some damage.

Quite right, at BS 4 they aren't much better than veterans, who have a metric tonne more options than they do.

Veteran against a marine (4/6)*(2/6)=.222 wounds before armor saves
Fire warrior against a marine (3/6)*(4/6)=.333

abut a 50% in..crease in efficiancy for a 42% increase in price... I just prooved my self wrong mathematically... point for point taking only into effect the basic forms, the firewarrior is much better for the price with a better armor save... but then again... gaurdsmen have access to a lot firewarriors dont.