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Option C: the British government circulates a reward to all GW stores. For every riot put down by whippy stick you get a free army box.

And who said geeks could never rule. Unleash of the whippy stick!

whatwhat wrote:

malfred wrote:1. It does what it's told or else it gets the hose again.

2. I'm pretty sure that Ian Tomlinson received the same treatment that a
colored man or teen would have received here in the States for exactly the same
behavior (hands in pockets, sauntering away when ordered to clear). I'll let you
interpret that how you will.

Colored man or teen? wow

As a colored person, I reserve the right to eschew the PC term person of color.

(brown asian, fyi)

malfred wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

malfred wrote:1. It does what it's told or else it gets the hose again.

2. I'm pretty sure that Ian Tomlinson received the same treatment that a
colored man or teen would have received here in the States for exactly the same
behavior (hands in pockets, sauntering away when ordered to clear). I'll let you
interpret that how you will.

Colored man or teen? wow

As a colored person, I reserve the right to eschew the PC term person of color.

(brown asian, fyi)

Look out! check your sock drawer! Malfred walks among us!

malfred wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

malfred wrote:1. It does what it's told or else it gets the hose again.

2. I'm pretty sure that Ian Tomlinson received the same treatment that a
colored man or teen would have received here in the States for exactly the same
behavior (hands in pockets, sauntering away when ordered to clear). I'll let you
interpret that how you will.

Colored man or teen? wow

As a colored person, I reserve the right to eschew the PC term person of color.

(brown asian, fyi)

Wasn't really your terminology which I had a problem with.

I'm not saying the police should be patrolling the streets and summarily executing anyone breaking the KGB style curfew but on the other hand, why do we have to have such an outcry of hand wringing every time we propose allowing the police to have a little more bite and a bit more of a deterrent?

whatwhat wrote:Killkrazy it's not about taking sides. I can't believe anyone can say that british police have proved themselves responsible enough to be given more weapons to control riots in the UK.

Yes, because it's not as if the attitudes of the protestors are ever a contributing factor. It's always the fault of the 'irresponsible' Police.

Medium of Death wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Killkrazy it's not about taking sides. I can't believe anyone can say that british police have proved themselves responsible enough to be given more weapons to control riots in the UK.

Yes because it's not as if the attitudes of the protestors are ever a contributing factor. It's always the fault 'irresponsible' Police.

Don't put that on me, that's not what I said.

filbert wrote:I'm not saying the police should be patrolling the streets and summarily executing anyone breaking the KGB style curfew but on the other hand, why do we have to have such an outcry of hand wringing every time we propose allowing the police to have a little more bite and a bit more of a deterrent?

Because the idea that their incompetency will be cured by giving them more weapons is idiotic.

As the convicted New Orleans cops prove, mob mentalities lets people hide behind
both the masses and the people in authority.

Medium of Death wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Killkrazy it's not about taking sides. I can't believe anyone can say that british police have proved themselves responsible enough to be given more weapons to control riots in the UK.

Yes, because it's not as if the attitudes of the protestors are ever a contributing factor. It's always the fault of the 'irresponsible' Police.

See if you let packs of German Shepherds roam freely this wouldn't be an issue. Plus it would keep the local kitty on her toes.

EDIT: This even helps with Whatwhat's alleged incompetency of the police. It takes the human out of the equation.

German Shepherds, putting the German back into Shepherd for 200 years.

EDIT: in an ironical twist, there are two young German Shepherds behind a metal fence on Weiner Legion Command walking route A. Every time we pass, they freak, the Shanker puffs out (all 13 lbs of him) and TBone, looks around bewildered (is someone there? whats the deal?)

Frazzled wrote:

See if you let packs of German Shepherds roam freely this wouldn't be an issue. Plus it would keep the local kitty on her toes.

Roaming freely might cause a bit of interruption. If we could schedule the packs to pass through major population centres at certain times then I think people would embrace your idea.

Medium of Death wrote:Yes, because it's not as if the attitudes of the protestors are ever a contributing factor. It's always the fault of the 'irresponsible' Police.

You push people and they push back. What was a peaceful protest before you kettle a few hundred or even thousand people up for a few hours starts to get a bit more rowdy so you send in the horse mounted officers to charge into the crowd and break it up, and suddenly the police are being pelted with missiles.

Doesn't take a genius to see how these things can go.

The police need better tactics, not better weapons.

Don't get me wrong, if there is a mob throwing firebombs, smashing up shops, etc, by all means, use methods appropriate to that situation (CS gas, water cannons, even live fire in cases of extreme disruption), however, it is the police's job to ensure that it never gets to that stage by managing protests; picking out the trouble makers, ensuring that marches continue along their routes, etc. Things they seem to be singularly unable to do at the moment (and indeed historically).

They are using outdated methods that, as we can see, are not really working very well in the current demonstrations.

Medium of Death wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

See if you let packs of German Shepherds roam freely this wouldn't be an issue. Plus it would keep the local kitty on her toes.

Roaming freely might cause a bit of interruption. If we could schedule the packs to pass through major population centres at certain times then I think people would embrace your idea.

That wouldn't be a problem. Just run the local meat delivery truck on the schedule you prefer. I can guarantee pack compliance.

Frazzled wrote:alleged incompetency

Nothing alleged about it, that's why they are proposing water canons.

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:alleged incompetency

Nothing alleged about it, that's why they are proposing water canons.

I'm pretty sure its alleged...

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:alleged incompetency

Nothing alleged about it, that's why they are proposing water canons.

I'm pretty sure its alleged...

I guess they must have ran over budget then and the watercanons are to use up the surplus. After all the polices incompetence last wek in dealing with the riots is only alleged.

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:alleged incompetency

Nothing alleged about it, that's why they are proposing water canons.

I'm pretty sure its alleged...

I guess they must have ran over budget then and the watercanons are to use up the surplus. After all the polices incompetence last wek in dealing with the riots is only alleged.

Wow thats like saying we're all typing on computers instead of good old Selectric typewriters is because we're incompetent. Now thats true in my case, but I'd proffer its a bit of a stretch otherwise.

filbert wrote:I'm not saying the police should be patrolling the streets and summarily executing anyone breaking the KGB style curfew but on the other hand, why do we have to have such an outcry of hand wringing every time we propose allowing the police to have a little more bite and a bit more of a deterrent?

If you think about the police's record of injuring and killing innocent people by accident, the reason for the handwringing no doubt will become clear.

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:alleged incompetency

Nothing alleged about it, that's why they are proposing water canons.

I'm pretty sure its alleged...

I guess they must have ran over budget then and the watercanons are to use up the surplus. After all the polices incompetence last wek in dealing with the riots is only alleged.

Wow thats like saying we're all typing on computers instead of good old Selectric typewriters is because we're incompetent. Now thats true in my case, but I'd proffer its a bit of a stretch otherwise.

Not really it's quite simple. I'll put it in simple terms for you... policeman CAN'T disperse riot, we give policeman watercanon. Not: policeman CAN disperse riot, we give him watercanon.

Elmodiddly wrote: I will add that we have always had water cannons in the UK inventory, same as with the old Green Goddesses, we just don't have cause to use them..

Showering is NOT optional. Use them...

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:alleged incompetency

Nothing alleged about it, that's why they are proposing water canons.

I'm pretty sure its alleged...

I guess they must have ran over budget then and the watercanons are to use up the surplus. After all the polices incompetence last wek in dealing with the riots is only alleged.

Wow thats like saying we're all typing on computers instead of good old Selectric typewriters is because we're incompetent. Now thats true in my case, but I'd proffer its a bit of a stretch otherwise.

Not really it's quite simple. I'll put it in simple terms for you... policeman can't disperse riot, we give policeman watercanon. Not...policeman can disperse riot, we give him watercanon.

Its easy to disperse a riot I'm seeing what your issue is, and by that I am gretting your issue-with the British police in general, and you're using this as an excuse to vent your spleen about them.

Competence. Shotgun weilding cops balst fifteen rioters. All riots end.
Competence. police disburse crowds of hooligans. no one killed.
Whatwhat-COPS ARE EVIOL AND INCOMPETENT! EVIOL!!!

meh whatever. Its all irrelevant when the German Shepherd packs roam free. There will be no dawn for Man...

Kilkrazy wrote:

filbert wrote:I'm not saying the police should be patrolling the streets and summarily executing anyone breaking the KGB style curfew but on the other hand, why do we have to have such an outcry of hand wringing every time we propose allowing the police to have a little more bite and a bit more of a deterrent?

If you think about the police's record of injuring and killing innocent people by accident, the reason for the handwringing no doubt will become clear.

But surely this must be taken in the context of the amount of interaction that the police have in any given year with the general public? Just in terms of sheer numbers, the police must have hundreds of thousands or interactions / transactions / whatever you want to call it with the public per year (if not millions - I don't know the figures for arrests / cautions / stop & search).

In the context of those numbers then it is inevitable that mistakes and tragedies occur but that shouldn't detract from the overall standard of policing (and I think its fair to state that the UK forces are excellent by and large).

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:alleged incompetency

Nothing alleged about it, that's why they are proposing water canons.

What would you suggest then?

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:alleged incompetency

Nothing alleged about it, that's why they are proposing water canons.

I'm pretty sure its alleged...

I guess they must have ran over budget then and the watercanons are to use up the surplus. After all the polices incompetence last wek in dealing with the riots is only alleged.

Wow thats like saying we're all typing on computers instead of good old Selectric typewriters is because we're incompetent. Now thats true in my case, but I'd proffer its a bit of a stretch otherwise.

Not really it's quite simple. I'll put it in simple terms for you... policeman can't disperse riot, we give policeman watercanon. Not...policeman can disperse riot, we give him watercanon.

Its easy to disperse a riot I'm seeing what your issue is, and by that I am gretting your issue-with the British police in general, and you're using this as an excuse to vent your spleen about them.

Competence. Shotgun weilding cops balst fifteen rioters. All riots end.
Competence. police disburse crowds of hooligans. no one killed.
Whatwhat-COPS ARE EVIOL AND INCOMPETENT! EVIOL!!!

meh whatever. Its all irrelevant when the German Shepherd packs roam free. There will be no dawn for Man...

I should have known better than to have had faith in your ability to see this argument as something more than pigs vs hippies. oh well, keep the German Sheppherd jokes coming.

Medium of Death wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:alleged incompetency

Nothing alleged about it, that's why they are proposing water canons.

What would you suggest then?

Better policing perhaps?

As sliverMK2 put it...

SilverMK2 wrote:The police need better tactics, not better weapons.

Medium of Death wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:alleged incompetency

Nothing alleged about it, that's why they are proposing water canons.

What would you suggest then?

Full auto Haggis launchers. Plus in the case of Zombiepocalpyse, or as we call it in Texas "the Zombie State Fair," they can be used to fight the zombies. Even the dead cannot last against the awesome might of haggis.

SilverMK2 wrote:The police need better tactics,

I must admit this "kettling" tactic they use doesn't seem to be very well thought out, almost as if it's designed to try and bring things to a head rather than, you know, let people hold their protest.

Some of the protesters last week were bundled into Parliament square and were prevented from leaving for 11 hours. No food other than what they'd brought, no toilets...if you were caught treating animals that way you'd be prosecuted.

I appreciate it's a terrible dilemma for the Police, if they'd X thousand people wander off and they'd caused trouble then they'd be blamed for that as well. Distinct lack of co operation from civil authorities -- ie the Mayor's office -- with regards to these demos than in past ones....


... you'd think Bojo would leap at the chance to have a go at Dave.

But there's time the Police aren't doing themselves any favours : The attempted cover up after Tomlinson was disgraceful, there's investigations going on ( again) over the conduct of some officers who weren't displaying the required number, and..welll..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8196630/Police-dragged-me-from-wheelchair-twice-during-protests-says-demonstrator.html

I think if a man is in a wheelchair and has cerebral palsy he is probably not a huge threat to the public order.

hell if he does play up, then clamp him, like they did with the homeless before Kim Wilde got involved.

Why the handwringing? Because of this:
Every day hundred of Police Operation go right: Armed police deal with suspects without shooting them, Public Order and TAU/TSG Units deal with Violent Situations and no-one gets hurt, Traffic Police pull speeders and car theives without the car crashing in a blazing fireball. The newspapers don't report it, nobody cares which tactics were used. However, something goes wrong, even comparitavely minor (Kettling the protesters was a bad decision but it didn't kill anyone) the media jump on it and the nanny brigade are wheeled out, this causes the hand wringing and monaing because the media only like to report when things go wrong. As Red s8n says above the police seem to be damned if they do and damned if they don't, if they do nothing and buildings get trashed, its their fault. In addition, if you are going to a student protest and the group you are in starts clashing with the police, get out, fight out. Its easier to fight through the thugs who have their attention on the police than the shield wall. Finally, in a true riot, nobody is innocent.

The OC-D

reds8n wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:The police need better tactics,

I must admit this "kettling" tactic they use doesn't seem to be very well thought out, almost as if it's designed to try and bring things to a head rather than, you know, let people hold their protest.

Some of the protesters last week were bundled into Parliament square and were prevented from leaving for 11 hours. No food other than what they'd brought, no toilets...if you were caught treating animals that way you'd be prosecuted.

Precisely. If I'm along on a protest, and I get bored after a few hours and want to go home, as far as I'm concerned, the police have sod all right to forcibly keep me in an area crowded with people with not toilets or food or drink. Therefore after an hour or so, odds are, I'm going to try and force my way past the policemen who will then baton me, claiming I'm assaulting them.

It doesn't take a genius to note that forcibly containing people is guaranteed to make them try and storm police lines.

Frazzled wrote:Option C: the British government circulates a reward to all GW stores. For every riot put down by whippy stick you get a free army box.

And who said geeks could never rule. Unleash of the whippy stick!

Then the protestors return with their own whippy sticks and then next you know, dice everywhere.

To tell the truth, you think that the country that houses a tabletop strategy game giant would have better strategy skills. They need to set up some heavy weapons teams and flamers, the most armor a protestor could have is what, a 5+?

In seriousness, they need to be tougher but more realistic. Unless missiles popped out of the wheelchair he couldn't do anything to them and if missiles popped out they should take the old man down.

halonachos wrote:
To tell the truth, you think that the country that houses a tabletop strategy game giant would have better strategy skills. They need to set up some heavy weapons teams and flamers, the most armor a protestor could have is what, a 5+?

They expect everyone to discuss differences of opinions on the rules beforehand.

The handwringing is because of the (admittedly small) number of times when the police have seriously screwed up, but instead of admit it, examine their procedures and learn from the experience, they have put a lot of effort into denying and covering up the mistakes.