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eheh... I'm a strange ork player... no Lootas nor deffrollas.... Boyz boyz some nobz boyz boyz boyz... just ignore everything too tough for 'em ... It's probably not a FTW tactic everytime... but I like this way... I use Deffkoptas and Killa kans (3-6 deff and 6 killa kans) with rokkits to handle with vehicles and MCs but against the liths they're pretty useless so i have to ignore them

The etheric tempest is terrific... didn't remember it.... ouch
Here's the solution against green tide.... Nevermind my doubts...

Orks ain't no puny 'umies! Even the smallest of Orks has at least Str 4!

No, they are S3 with Furious Charge. If you deny the charge, Boyz are really pretty wimpy.

Uhhm, no they don't. Actually, most got s3.

The only problem is that most mobs include atleast one s4 guy. (Hint: Nob)

EDIT: Of course, that doesn't matter much, as the unit have to be complete made up of s4+ guys. (Thought it was the other way around. )

I think a Kan Wall would be the Orks best bet versus Necrons.

Lots of S10 Dreadnought CC weapons to go around, cover for everything, good numbers of bodies, and sometimes even Deffrollas for cracking Monliths.

Whoops. Guess I was thinkin' toughness, not strength. My bad. (well, that and I haven't used regular boyz in cc yet. Just nobz and megaz.




Just curious, but I have heard that powerweapons are a 'cron's worst enemy, but why exactly is that?

Norade wrote:Lots of S10 Dreadnought CC weapons to go around, cover for everything, good numbers of bodies, and sometimes even Deffrollas for cracking Monliths.

Deffrollas are a problem, but if you focus fire on the Battle Wagons with your Destroyers you have a shot at wrecking or immobilizing them. Also, the Particle Whip isn't terrible at popping them being Ordnance and AP1. You really don't have to worry about the boyz when you are using the Nightbringer, due to the etheric tempest ability.

Anvildude wrote:Just curious, but I have heard that powerweapons are a 'cron's worst enemy, but why exactly is that?

It's because negating their armor in CC means they will lose combat, and if they fall back they are I2 so they'll most likely die to a sweeping advance.

This seams like a good tactic, how do you think itll do against a tau player? Mechanized tau to be exact ? I think i need to re read this though as it kind of confused me, whats the key to this strategy??

KRUDD wrote:This seams like a good tactic, how do you think itll do against a tau player? Mechanized tau to be exact ?

You actually don't need to castle against Tau, as they aren't a CC threat. An Advancing Phalanx with an eye on the objectives should be fine. The other thing about Mech Tau is that when they come close with those Devilfish, they're still full of Fire Warriors at the end of the day. Their shooting isn't going to bother the Necrons much on average.

EDIT: Okay, Kroot are a problem for Necrons in CC, but if they are present just put the Monoliths between them and your warriors and make sure they can't come in from the outflank.

KRUDD wrote:I think i need to re read this though as it kind of confused me, whats the key to this strategy??

The key to this strategy is relying on your army's toughness (Monoliths) and counter-assault capability of the C'Tan in the early game, and mobility(Monolith Portals, Veil of Darkness) in the latter turns. Since a smart player will be attempting to avoid your tough units to get to your soft units (Warriors) to phase you out, you make sure that your tough units are between them and their objective at all times.

I think that while you can win with this list, you face a few issues in the competitive arena. First, your destroyers can be fairly easy to kill. Sure you can move and what not, but with a range of 36, if you face a determined shooting opponent like the kind that are all over tourneys, then they have enough shooting from small units to exceed your ability to glance them back.

IG are of course the biggest threat, with their s10 ordance manticores that can each put up to 3 pens a turn on a monolith. Vendettas trade quite nicely versus destroyers, and chimera's s6 shots can not be ignored. Also, the PBS can cause your units to flee off the table quite easily, something that can not be understated. And in combat, if the enemy has straken unless you get the nightbringer over in a hurry straken can and will eat a warrior squad.

Then if you look at space wolves, any of the power builds trade destroyer shots for krak missiles in a losing equasion for the destroyers. Lots of razorbacks overwelm the destroyers ability to glance them all, and as stated TWC can demolish monoliths with s10 and hitting on 4+. Is Nightbringer s10? I forget... In any event, the SW builds have the advantage in sheer firepower and CC ability, and are more mobile, giving the advantage to them.

Regular SM have Null Zone, which can and will make the Nightbringer cry... and with the night bringer gone the SM can press a CC advantage as even a PF tac squad can beat necron face.

DE have a harder time, as they must leverage the ability to drop your destroyers before the destroyers kill their mobility. That said, it wont take too many venoms with 12 poisoned shots to bring down 4 destroyers, and if the DE took warriors then massed splinter fire may drop all 12 in one go, leaving you with no WBB quite quickly. In CC, the night bringer will push away almost any unit, but in return the night bringer wont want to tangle with any of the poision units either.

Not trying to rain on your parade, its just while your advice is good, I feel it didnt give enough credit to how much better the new armies are... your advice seems best for beginning players against other beginning players. Against advanced players, then much of your stratedgy could be modified.

DevianID wrote:I think that while you can win with this list, you face a few issues in the competitive arena. First, your destroyers can be fairly easy to kill.

12 of them, with cover saves and re-rollable WBB are actually pretty hard to remove at range.

DevianID wrote:IG are of course the biggest threat, with their s10 ordance manticores that can each put up to 3 pens a turn on a monolith.

This was somewhat addressed earlier in the thread, but yes, long range S10 is an issue. Just as it is for any army relying on large vehicles. If you're going to go second against someone with more than one Manticore, reserving your Monoliths and Deep Striking them is probably the answer. Also, since IG aren't usually a big CC threat, you don't necessarily need to castle against them.

DevianID wrote:...if the enemy has straken unless you get the nightbringer over in a hurry straken can and will eat a warrior squad.

Again, if the Nightbringer is alive and you're keeping a tight Phalanx or castle, the majority S <4 unit won't be assaulting anything.

DevianID wrote:Is Nightbringer s10? I forget...

He is.

DevianID wrote:In any event, the SW builds have the advantage in sheer firepower and CC ability, and are more mobile, giving the advantage to them.

They don't generally bring the equipment needed to reliably down Monoliths in this melta/missile launcher dominated meta game, and also don't shoot hard enough at range to keep 3 squads of 4 Destroyers permanently dead. You're understating re-rollable WBB quite a bit.

DevianID wrote:Regular SM have Null Zone, which can and will make the Nightbringer cry...

If you can see him. I've found that a Monolith keeps the Nightbringer out of TLOS quite nicely. And if you as a Space Marine player want to assault him with something other than Death Company, please feel free.

DevianID wrote: In CC, the night bringer will push away almost any unit, but in return the night bringer wont want to tangle with any of the poision units either.

Right, and then you shoot the units that he pushes away.

DevianID wrote: Not trying to rain on your parade, its just while your advice is good, I feel it didnt give enough credit to how much better the new armies are...

I think that if you follow the discussion you'd see that Space Wolves have featured prominently. It won't be easy, but it is possible to win. The over reliance on melta for anti-tank makes the Monolith wall pretty tough.

DevianID wrote:your advice seems best for beginning players against other beginning players.

Droofus, Mannahnin and Reecius are extremely advanced players and have posted in this thread. Just throwing that out there.

DevianID wrote:Against advanced players, then much of your stratedgy could be modified.

How so?

Well as to cover saves on the destroyers, that is not a definate thing. While you can park them in dangerous terrain and perhaps only lose 1, if the enemy is mobile they can bypass some obscuring terrain. Also, you dont need to kill 12. If you have them all close enough to WBB off each other, then its possible that you can kill 8 for example, leaving 1 squad potentially out of range, and causing all the destroyers to have to form 1 big unit. This kills your shooting flexibility, even if you dont lose a single destroyer after WBB, as having 12 destroyers in 1 unit is less than optimal.

As for the tight castle... how tight are you talking? Are you talking about keeping every single unit within 6 inches of the night bringer? If so, then you are kind of clumped a bit for those manticores, and perhaps will lose more to clumping than you save with your tempest.

As for SW, its true I have seen the wolves with only melta and missiles in some builds. But not always... and the s10 CC is one of those things that quite a few SW capitalize on.

For regular SM, really the only CC unit is termies--preferably shooty since the SS wont help to much. A big unit of termies can send the nightbringer packing, but often people only have 5 THSS termies which the nightbringer, with a decent CC phase, can take out. I think the bigger threat is just from a general push around your flanks. The nightbringer can only shore up 1 flank, so with a board hugging set up you can be mostly safe, but such a setup gives very limited destroyer opportunities, as leaving the corner exposes them to the entire enemy army.

As for what strats could change, I might recommend more monoliths and less destroyers. Perhaps instead of veil try solar pulse and other various necron tricks like gaze of flame. Scarabs with their 2+ cover when turboboosting are also not to shabby at blocking advances. The deciever versus the nightbringer is a tough call that factors down to metagame decisions, but I feel deserves a bigger mention.

Also, what tactic would you use in the many 5 objective events that many tournies bring?

Well OP seams like you are experienced with necrons, since i wont need to try and get into CC with Tau as he is not going to try, and does not run kroot, what do you think is a good way to play them? ANy advise you can provide will be great dude

DevianID wrote:This kills your shooting flexibility, even if you dont lose a single destroyer after WBB, as having 12 destroyers in 1 unit is less than optimal.

It's pretty devastating against the one thing that you shoot them at, though.

DevianID wrote:As for the tight castle... how tight are you talking?

If necessary, you can make an 18-inch wide Monolith wall to hide behind in a corner. This has been talked about already.

DevianID wrote: Are you talking about keeping every single unit within 6 inches of the night bringer?

Just your Warriors. As a Necron player, keeping things within 6" of something else doesn't seem all that outlandish.

DevianID wrote:If so, then you are kind of clumped a bit for those manticores, and perhaps will lose more to clumping than you save with your tempest.

No, not at all. Warriors get their Armor Save and WBB (if the Orb is present, which it should be) from the AP4 Manticore blasts, and they get neither from a sweeping advance.

DevianID wrote:As for SW, its true I have seen the wolves with only melta and missiles in some builds. But not always... and the s10 CC is one of those things that quite a few SW capitalize on.

Right, and as pointed out earlier, if they are assaulting your Monolith they should be getting charged by a C'Tan on the next turn.

DevianID wrote:For regular SM, really the only CC unit is termies--preferably shooty since the SS wont help to much.

Right, shooting is generally the preferable method of downing the Nightbringer. Unless you have something that can kill him before he can swing like the Skull Taker or something like that. I don't see many tactical terminators at competitive tournaments though.

DevianID wrote:A big unit of termies can send the nightbringer packing, but often people only have 5 THSS termies which the nightbringer, with a decent CC phase, can take out. I think the bigger threat is just from a general push around your flanks. The nightbringer can only shore up 1 flank, so with a board hugging set up you can be mostly safe, but such a setup gives very limited destroyer opportunities, as leaving the corner exposes them to the entire enemy army.

The Destroyers can plug a hole as well, and I see no problem with making a couple of speed bumps with them. You are also understating the power of what the opponent is flanking around, S9 AP 3(1) large blast shooting Monoliths.

DevianID wrote:As for what strats could change, I might recommend more monoliths and less destroyers.

I completely disagree. When you already have two, and are playing below 2500 points, 2 is plenty. Destroyers wreck Rhinos and Razorbacks pretty well, and you want to be doing that at range and they are the only thing in the Codex worth talking about that shoots over 24 inches.

DevianID wrote: Perhaps instead of veil try solar pulse and other various necron tricks like gaze of flame.

What is the Solar Pulse going to add to this list? And CC upgrades for Necrons are something I'd strongly advise against. Dedicated CC units(hell, even mediocre CC units) are going to whipsmack your Necron units and send them running. Period. Better to stay out of CC altogether when possible. Other than the C'Tan and the exceptions I've already outlined above.

DevianID wrote: Scarabs with their 2+ cover when turboboosting are also not to shabby at blocking advances.

True, and I like Scarabs a lot. Particularly with Disruption Fields. I don't think they are better than Destroyers, however. This problem comes from the Necrons having a triple-stacked FA section.

DevianID wrote:The deciever versus the nightbringer is a tough call that factors down to metagame decisions, but I feel deserves a bigger mention.

I gave my reasons and some pros and cons for both. What more do you suggest?

DevianID wrote:Also, what tactic would you use in the many 5 objective events that many tournies bring?

In scenarios like this, when I win, its usually by one or two objectives and involves Warriors screened by Monoliths holding one objective and a Squad with a Veil Lord grabbing an unsecured objective late in the game. Also, don't forget that 10 Warriors can cover a lot of ground when spaced out their full 2" and can hold more than one objective if need be.

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KRUDD wrote:Well OP seams like you are experienced with necrons, since i wont need to try and get into CC with Tau as he is not going to try, and does not run kroot, what do you think is a good way to play them? ANy advise you can provide will be great dude

What kind of list do you think you'll be playing with and against?

In general, against Tau, I like to Deep Strike my Monoliths and try to keep the Hammerheads shaken(or worse) until I can start marching warriors into their lines. If they are mechanized, again, keep their S10 quiet with gauss glances and don't give them room to run. Broadsides are a serious problem for Monoliths, but I find that Scarabs tie them up in CC quite nicely!

That's just some general advice. If you can give me more specifics I would gladly reciprocate.

My list is open as im still building the army. If this trade works out ill have 40 warriors, and 4 destroyers. I am trying to get 12 destroyers, 2 lords, and 2 monoliths. Maybe a squad of immortals. I was thinking about using the lord to veil infront of the tau, shoot / assualt them. Deep striking 'liths in close, push out warrior squads, rapid fire under 12 inches, and then charge the tau to tie them up in CC too, mean while bringing destroyers up the side to try to take out some crisis suits or any rail guns around?? Basiclly a in your face shoot and charge, obviously i would need to watch out for PO, whatcha think??

his list will be devil fish with troops in them, rail guns, ion cannons, and crisis suits.

Dunno quiet what game type, but for the sake of discussion lets just say its one on one eliminate the other person completetly

You can't charge after rapid firing, but I see where you're going with this. Monoliths completely wreck crisis suits, and Immortals and Destroyers work really well in all lists but they're even better against Tau as their guns are AP4.

This is pretty close to the strategy that I would use when playing Tau, so I say go for it! Destroyers can be used to tie up shooty units that are bothering you in a pinch as well.

Monster you got some good answers to those challenges compared to most that just end up saying "yeah crons suck in this ed lolol", props on that. =)

Another quick question, how do you make your list in lower point games? I ended up playing some lower point games recently and keep getting smashed because I can't decide what to take. By the way I'm talking about 1000 and 1.5k games but mostly 1000 point games.

The way I see it after an HQ and the 2 troops, I have bare minimal space to work and can never decide what to take. What do you recommend to do in those cases? By the way I play mostly against a 'nid player that has triple trygons.

Destroyer wrote:Monster you got some good answers to those challenges compared to most that just end up saying "yeah crons suck in this ed lolol", props on that. =)

Thanks man. I've played Necrons for a while, against all manner of armies. They aren't a "win button" by any stretch of the imagination, but they can hold their own if you play to their strengths which is what I've tried to condense into this tactica.

Destroyer wrote:Another quick question, how do you make your list in lower point games? I ended up playing some lower point games recently and keep getting smashed because I can't decide what to take. By the way I'm talking about 1000 and 1.5k games but mostly 1000 point games.

Necrons at lower points tend to be pretty sorry, to be honest. If I were going to play them at 1000 points though, I would probably do a little something like this:

Lord with Res Orb, Veil of Darkness (There will probably be some open objectives at this low of a point value. Snag an isolated one on turn 5. And keep a squad or warriors alive so you don't Phase Out.

10 Warriors
10 Warriors (Keep these in reserve, most of the time. Remember to place objectives within easy reach of your table edge.)

3 Destroyers (Keep cover between these and your opponent's ap3 guns and keep the units near each other for WBB redundancy. Unless you're looking at a lot of S10 they won't need an orb nearby.)
3 Destroyers
3 Wraiths (At lower point values I really like this unit. It kills tanks and ties up Monstrous Creatures pretty nicely.)

Destroyer wrote:The way I see it after an HQ and the 2 troops, I have bare minimal space to work and can never decide what to take. What do you recommend to do in those cases? By the way I play mostly against a 'nid player that has triple trygons.

O_o

Triple Trygons at 1000 points? What else does he have in there?

You'll need a C'Tan, I think. I'd bust this out on him.

Deceiver (He'll beat down a trygon, and his pinning power works on fearless units. Tyranids have average LD so you've got a shot. When a trygon shows up, try to pin it. If you do, shoot it with everything you have. Torrents of fire will get through that 3+ save eventually. If you don't pin it, charge it with the deceiver and run everything away from it as quickly as possible!)

11 Warriors
11 Warriors (Keep them safe! You'll need them on the board to try to gun down the pinned Monsters, but if it doesn't get pinned, run!)

3 Destroyers
3 Destroyers(Use the Grand Illusion to put these guys exactly where you want them to be, pick your targets wisely and keep them between the CC units and your Warriors when they start getting close.)

The key to this is not letting your C'tan get distracted. He's there to pin units and eat monsters when they get close. Remember that he can use Misdirect to get out of CC so you'll want to do that at the end of your opponent's turn if he's in assault at that point. I'm not going to lie to you, this is a tough one for Necrons.

Rain there is a team tourny coming uop soon, 1k points a person so 2k points per team, ill be playing with my brother (who is the tau player i keep referencing). Think i should run with 1k of necrons, or 1k of nids?

Also, whats the advantage of your castle monolith tactic how exactly does it work?

Well, I kind of outlined the tactics In the first post.

What questions do you have specifically?

Ah ok thanks for the advice.

I usually have to choose between a c'tan or a monolith and always saw the monolith more viable due to being able to pull out of CC if necessary, the extra WBB, and the pie plates to eat up his troops but I guess a c'tan would be better.

He also fields a prime and some gants to hold objectives but that's about it.

Normally I'd say go with the Monolith, since it has a lot more utility as you correctly pointed out.

If your local metagame indicates that you'll be facing three trygons with any regularity I'd say the C'Tan is a no-brainer choice!

Haha alright thanks. C'tan it is.

Wait, Deceiver or Nightbringer against trygons?

Well, you'll have to rearrange some points so you'd only get one unit of 4 Destroyers if you take the Nightbringer. Then again, he'll probably gorilla-napalm-stomp a trygon per turn.

Up to you, really. The list you're facing doesn't seem to have a lot of shooting and 4 Destroyers will house some gants as well. I always prefer the Nightbringer!

I think you're underestimating a well played Kan Wall given that you'll have issues with target priority and actually dealing damage.

A typical Kanwall list might be like this:

HQ:
Mek - KFF: 85pts.
Mek - KFF: 85pts.

Elites:
Nobz x7 - 4x PK, 2x Big Choppa, 1x Heavy Armor, 1x Bosspole, 1x Ammo Runt, 1x Shoota Rokkit, Cybork x7, Painboy: 468pts.
--Battle Wagon - Deff Rolla, 1x Big Shoota, 1x Rokkits
Nobz x7 - 4x PK, 2x Big Choppa, 1x Heavy Armor, 1x Bosspole, 1x Ammo Runt, 1x Shoota Rokkit, Cybork x7, Painboy: 468pts.
--Battle Wagon - Deff Rolla, 1x Big Shoota, 1x Rokkits
Kommandos x4, Snikrot - 2x Burnas: 165pts.

Troops:
Deff Dread - 3x DCCW, Skorcha, Rigger, Armor: 100pts.
Deff Dread - 3x DCCW, Skorcha, Rigger, Armor: 100pts.
Grots x10, Runtherder: 40pts.
Grots x10, Runtherder: 40pts.

Heavy Support:
Killa Kans x3 - Rokkit Launchas - 150pts.
Killa Kans x3 - Rokkit Launchas - 150pts.
Killa Kans x3 - Rokkit Launchas - 150pts.

So now, what do you try to glance to death? You average a glance and a pen per shooting phase against Kans with a unit of Destroyers, you average less than a result per unit versus the Dreads, and the Wagons are equally hard to touch.

Advancing at a walk my army is taking a wound a turn from the C'Tan with Rokkits, your destroyers need to be wary of board edges lest the Kommandos eat them.Then up close you need to worry about the Nobs who can, off an average charge knock 2 wounds off a C'Tan.

Your idea is a good one, but with how weak Crons are most lists have some built in easy answers to the Necron question.

I'd focus fire on the Battle Wagons in that situation, and pray like hell for a break. It would be tough, for sure, but the Monoliths would have a chance at wrecking the wagons and particle whips shred Nobs.

The kans wouldn't last long against the Nightbringer, so I'd obviously be leaning on him pretty hard against that list.

A lot of the theoryhammer responses to Necrons fail to account for the LOS-blocking qualities of multiple Monoliths. You can literally hide the C'Tan and entire units of Destroyers behind them in the early game, and protect your Warriors with them late. Ork Rokkits aren't doing anything to a Monolith, and the C'Tan only comes out to play once the Kans are in charge range. It's one of those lists that doesn't sound so bad when you hear about it; and then you play against it and it feels like you're swinging your perfectly-honed sword (tournament army) against a frickin' steel wall.

SW, SM, and BA shooty armies run afoul of the same issue. The 'liths can be a moving wall, pivoting to protect the Destroyers & C'Tan from most of the enemy fire while allowing the Destroyers to peek around the side and rip up 2-3 enemy vehicles per turn. Meanwhile the Missiles & Meltas are bouncing harmlessly off the 'liths.

IG is more dangerous, as they bring more lascannons, and can get them TL on Vendettas and infantry squads under orders. But against IG you can play more aggressive, since you're not worried about losing HTH. The only thing really scary in HtH is Straken; and while IMO he's amazing and wonderful, he still squishes like a kitten against a C'Tan.

It's not a world-dominating army, by any means, but it is surprisingly tough, and presents some bad matchup issues for the presently more popular guns (missiles & melta) and units (assault terminators, thunderwolves both die like chumps to C'Tan). Certain other armies, unusual ones which bring multiple long-ranged S10 (like Tau) find it much easier to fight. It can be a bit luck-dependent. Most armies don't bring a lot of lascannons nowadays. If the few they have get lucky immobilizing or destroying 'liths early, the list tends to lose. But they have to roll lucky to do so.

The Ork list isn't really theory hammer as I've seen it used to great effect before. If the C'Tan is moved to fight Kans then the Dreads try to Wreck the Liths, if that fails then Klaws come out and aim for a kill or some of the Kans get pulled off to do it.

If I can't see the C'Tan to shoot it then my Rokkits get to start whittling down Destroyers as even one or two dead or forcing them into larger squads works.

I'm not trying to say it's an easy win, but it's one of many lists that have all of the tools to defeat this one trick Necron list and still compete versus other lists.

I'm pretty sure that inventing scenarios and tactics in a vacuum is the definition of theoryhammer.

I've played against similar lists and have won. Nor every time, obviously, as a lot of this depends on cover saves and damage table rolls.

Norade wrote:The Ork list isn't really theory hammer as I've seen it used to great effect before. If the C'Tan is moved to fight Kans then the Dreads try to Wreck the Liths, if that fails then Klaws come out and aim for a kill or some of the Kans get pulled off to do it.

If I can't see the C'Tan to shoot it then my Rokkits get to start whittling down Destroyers as even one or two dead or forcing them into larger squads works.

I'm not trying to say it's an easy win, but it's one of many lists that have all of the tools to defeat this one trick Necron list and still compete versus other lists.

I'm not saying I entirely disagree, but I'll take exception to the "many" part. Also, try running the math on how many Rokkits you need to be shooting at Destroyers with cover saves to do anything. They're almost worthless.

That Ork list you posted is certainly an all-comers list which is capable of taking on min-maxed 'crons, though it'd have to be decided on the table. The combination of AV14 and Skimmer Dodge makes the Monliths more resistant to deffrollas than any other vehicle. The rollas, and nob squads with 4 powerklaws on top of the Dreads and squads of Kans makes for a LOT more S9 and S10 attacks coming out of this list than the vast majority of tournament lists.