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Can't decide between all those subtle options of the poll

The only real problem I have, is that all the staff eye-hump my girlfriend when we're in there.
They never get female models who play Fantasy, in my local store, that is.

Gorechild wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Misguidance wrote:I'm always happy to admit that I love GW, and I love the worlds and models that they have created.

Yes, the fluff is nice. The minis are mainly meh.

malfred wrote:1. They don't care if I buy/don't buy their stuff. I'm not their target market.

2. I buy the sculpts that I like, but I'd probably buy much more if I liked the rules.

3. See point number one.

+1000

timetowaste85 wrote:Do they have an amazing game? Yes
Do they have amazing models that are better than most? Yes
Do their prices continually rise and irk us? Yes
Does the appreciation of us as players constantly seem to dwindle? Yes again

^'Amazing' is hardly appropriate. GW did NOT invent elves, orks or most of their canon. If you even have a slight understanding of modern and ancient history you will recognise their blatant rip-offs of names, events and their bastardisation of canon. Wiki some of the character names of space marines and see what you get. Even better... learn some historical fact and see if GW still *sparkles* for you... sycophant

Posts like this make me wonder why some people are signed up to a forum that is predominantly about GW games when they clearly don't like anything to do with them.
Anyway...Sure the prices are a little steep, sure the company makes a lot of "WTF?!" decisions but I still think they could do worse.
I've spent ~£250 on a 1500 point DE army, I've aready spent >30 hours assembling them and have countless hours of painting ahead of me. On top of that I'll get 2+ hours a week of gaming out of them from here to infinity. When you look at what you get out of that investment I don't see it as being that expensive at all.

Gorechild wrote:

Ratius wrote:

I've spent ~£250 on a 1500 point DE army, I've aready spent >30 hours assembling them and have countless hours of painting ahead of me. On top of that I'll get 2+ hours a week of gaming out of them from here to infinity. When you look at what you get out of that investment I don't see it as being that expensive at all.

Interesting way of putting it - with a long term view, I hadnt really looked at things that way. Recently I have fallen into the whole "godamn GW are expensive, more price rises" frame of mind but when you phrase it so - something to ponder anyway.

When you think that it costs £12-15 to go to the cinema and get snacks (2-3 hours max). £15 for a box of troops that takes a couple hours to assemble, an hour or so per model to paint and then you have it for life isn't all that bad.

Gorechild wrote:Sure the rules arent perfect, but its completely playable and is great fun. If they were that bad then there wouldnt be thousands of people playing it would there?

Just because the rules can be confusing at times (and on rare occasions dont make sense at all ) it doesnt mean my argument is flawed. Carrying on my analogy, you can still pay to see a crap movie and still have a good time if your there with friends. Playing 40k with friends you can find a way around all the stupid rules and still have alot of fun for your money.

Point Gorechild. Noone said they DESPISE or HATE gw... however, they are horribly flawed in their approach to their chosen customer base, often outright ignorant. Try arguing the validity of GW's pricing strategy with a Red Shirt... they are programmed with Marketing spiel and gw'isms to respond, but if you push them they change the topic or break down...

In fact, you outright deny your arguements being flawed, yet it is clearly obvious to others reading that they are...

Gorechild, are you a red shirt?

obsidianaura wrote:I think they could half the prices and people would buy twice as much.

I've been ok with the rules, they work ok for me. Can be a little frustrating with seeing the same list over and over but that's people exploting it IMO

Technically, I think they'd lose money if that were true, as they'd still have the same production costs, albeit slightly reduced for volume.

I love 40k. But I only like GW.

AvatarForm wrote: Point Gorechild. Noone said they DESPISE or HATE gw... however, they are horribly flawed in their approach to their chosen customer base, often outright ignorant. Try arguing the validity of GW's pricing strategy with a Red Shirt... they are programmed with Marketing spiel and gw'isms to respond, but if you push them they change the topic or break down...

In fact, you outright deny your arguements being flawed, yet it is clearly obvious to others reading that they are...

Gorechild, are you a red shirt?

God no! I haven't bought anything directly from GW for years and only ever venture there if I can't get a game in at home with mates (which is maybe once in the last year ).

I haven't said anything about their approach to their customer base, I dislike their approach to a lot of things. All I've said is, for the amount of time you can spend on them, their models aren't that expensive when compaired to other activities and that their rules are (although not flawless) perfectly playable.

Balance wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:I think they could half the prices and people would buy twice as much.

I've been ok with the rules, they work ok for me. Can be a little frustrating with seeing the same list over and over but that's people exploting it IMO

Technically, I think they'd lose money if that were true, as they'd still have the same production costs, albeit slightly reduced for volume.

I'm certianly no expert I just don't think that it'd cost GW that much more to double production. The main outgoing I'd bet is their LGSs.

It'd be interesting to know how much they can produce and what the demand is. I don't think we're buying their stuff anything like as fast than they're able to produce it.

I say this speculating wildly

It's a love/hate relationship.

I love their product, but hate the inflated prices.

I appreciate their customer service, but hate that the corporation is arrogant and run by a board of directors who care nothing of the actual product they produce.

I like GW, always have and probably always will. I like their products, fluff and customer support. Sure they are expensive but most hobbys are. My view is if people detest gw that much then dont buy or play gw, simple. If its just the rules you dont like then either come up with your own and see how easy it is or use another games systems rules with gw mini's.

obsidianaura wrote:I think they could half the prices and people would buy twice as much.

Maybe, but that means nothing to the company if manufacturing costs and overheads are more than that

Balance wrote:Technically, I think they'd lose money if that were true, as they'd still have the same production costs, albeit slightly reduced for volume.

The increased distribution costs would possibly offset any cost reduction of increased scale.

They have made/are making the game I have played for 15+ years. I vote "Yes".

It's been said already, so I won't belabor the point too much.

GW has some of the best miniatures, period, on the market. I haven't played 40k for a while, or Fantasy in years, but I still have several thousand points of Tyranids and Lizardmen. I keep them because they're awesome miniatures. When I can, I work them into D+D or board games because I really love them. Heck, I even adore my paddle-hands warriors and miniature Hive Tyrant, as goofy as those models are. The 40K fluff, as derivative as it might be, has a great over-the-top space opera feel to it that I just haven't seen replicated anywhere else.

As for the company itself, it's never let me, as a consumer, down. The game's always been pricey, but that's hardly a problem specific to GW; whenever I've had a problem with one of their items (a rare occurrence), staff was friendly, polite and resolved the issue quickly and without charge.

My major problem with GW products aren't the models or the how the company treats me -- it's the terrible ruleset. Someone earlier called the company's offerings "beer & pretzel games," and it's a good analog for the fiddly, overly complicated rules. Unfortunately, I've never spent more than 15 minutes and 10 USD on a beer+pretzel game. Bottom line -- I play WarmaHordes for the rules, but I have a secret love for GW minis. (Maybe I oughta just homebrew a Lizardman-and-Tyranids Hordes faction.)

So like GW? Yes and no. I'll keep buying the occasional mini I like from them, and if they make a balanced set of rules that don't require a prophet to interpret, maybe I'll even play a game with them.

moonshine wrote:Did you come up with somthing as awsome as 40k ?, and if they are that annoying, why don't you just buy from someone else?

I do thanks.

Here what people moan about most.

Price rises. Listen people, in the uk the vat goes up somtimes and gw are forced to put up prices, just like clothes shops, eletrical shops and most other shops. Ocasionly they put up prices without being forced and i don't know why, but it's a buisness and desighned to make money.

What are you talking about, the VAT went up to 20% this year, other than the temporary drop made by the government it's been at 17.5% for 20 years. Prices rise due to inflation so it's reasonable to expect all prices to rise a bit but contrary to your examples, some things like electrical goods and clothes have become cheaper in real terms not more expensive. By comparison GW price increases are well above inflation and it's not due to "pewter prices" either. There's no point in being coy, we all know they do it, they keep putting the price up as high as customers will tolerate. By the way, simply saying "it's a business and designed to make money" does not validate the actions of any company.

Secondly people are now moaning abouth cahpterhouse. On the gw website you can get a list of thing you can and cannot do with their ip , chapterhouse should have read it, and if you do read it you realise they are very leniant, as long as you don't make money orsay its official, they don't mind.

There's a bit of a gap between what GW say what you can do their their IP and what you can actually do with their IP, and in fact what actually *is* their IP. We've been over this loads of times in the various copyright threads but I wouldn't describe GW as taking a reasonable line on the matter of IP. They claim a lot further than they can reach on some things.

Third people moaning they don't do enough. Now some people say gw needs to do more stuff and take more risks, but at the end of the day i'd rather gw are a stable company who don't take risks, it's nice how calm they are because we never have to worry about our local gw closing or being taken out of some store, they're doing fine now and i hope they keep it up.

Dear oh dear. They don't look that stable, they're okay just about. If you live in the right places you'll have seen GW stores close. I've seen independent shops cut back or stop taking their stock because the price increases and other attitudes make it difficult to justify carrying their stuff.


Maybe they look good if you compare them to other highstreet shops like McDonalds but if you compare them to other hobby companies the product may be better in absolute terms, but prices and general attitude is a lot better elsewhere. They are very corporate and carry a lot of the unpleasantness that comes with it, try looking into the personal experiences of staff and independent stores. On a personal note I've found that profit above all else is what led them to axe many of the services, games and figure lines I was interested in.

So yes, they are "really that bad", they live up to their reputation frequently enough. Whether it affects you wanting to buy into their product or not is a different matter, few big companies are particularly nice through and through but don't kid yourself that people haven't got a point when moaning about the company.

I don't much care for my local drug dealer either, doesn't stop me from buying the good s*** from him.

I like 'em a lot, but I do disagree with a fair bit of things they do.

Ah! horsegak!

A thread title that says "Is GW really that bad?" and I voted 'Yes', except the poll question is 'Do you like GW'.

I've been duped!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Ah! horsegak!

A thread title that says "Is GW really that bad?" and I voted 'Yes', except the poll question is 'Do you like GW'.

I've been duped!

It's okay, I understand you. Let them trust you and when they least expect it..

Mewens wrote:It's been said already, so I won't belabor the point too much.

GW has some of the best miniatures, period, on the market. I haven't played 40k for a while, or Fantasy in years, but I still have several thousand points of Tyranids and Lizardmen. I keep them because they're awesome miniatures. When I can, I work them into D+D or board games because I really love them. Heck, I even adore my paddle-hands warriors and miniature Hive Tyrant, as goofy as those models are. The 40K fluff, as derivative as it might be, has a great over-the-top space opera feel to it that I just haven't seen replicated anywhere else.

As for the company itself, it's never let me, as a consumer, down. The game's always been pricey, but that's hardly a problem specific to GW; whenever I've had a problem with one of their items (a rare occurrence), staff was friendly, polite and resolved the issue quickly and without charge.

My major problem with GW products aren't the models or the how the company treats me -- it's the terrible ruleset. Someone earlier called the company's offerings "beer & pretzel games," and it's a good analog for the fiddly, overly complicated rules. Unfortunately, I've never spent more than 15 minutes and 10 USD on a beer+pretzel game. Bottom line -- I play WarmaHordes for the rules, but I have a secret love for GW minis. (Maybe I oughta just homebrew a Lizardman-and-Tyranids Hordes faction.)

So like GW? Yes and no. I'll keep buying the occasional mini I like from them, and if they make a balanced set of rules that don't require a prophet to interpret, maybe I'll even play a game with them.

I think Mewens nailed it on the head here.

I guess if you can't read, then your opinion isn't worth it? Its an idiot trap!

The poll bit is desighned a little badly but it shows who reads things first. Personnaly I don't think it's bad when gw bans other models from their shop (somthing that came up in a store recently) , you don't eat kfc in macdonalds right, and precides you can say gw is a terrible company but look at clothes shops and how they make their product, using very poor workers to work for barely any money at all, whilst on gw products it usually says made in the united kindom or somthing on them, except for paint which are from france.

Maybe we also pay for decent ethnics. Oh and gw does do better customer support than most stores because it doesn't just say thanks for the money now get out does it, unlike most stores you can go and have a nice time and not buy anything, though usually the tempaition is too strong.

moonshine wrote:Maybe we also pay for decent ethnics.

I'm really hoping this is an unfortunate typo and not a comment about their chinese production...

well to be fair if you check most of the boxes it says made in nottingham

I want to like GW. I like many of their models (holy crap that Trygon is pretty!), and I do for the most part enjoy playing the games they make up to help their sales. That being said, sometimes it's just all too clear that they make the game specifically to bolster miniature sales. Of course that's not a surprise to anyone, nor should it be, but it can be bothersome sometimes. Even so, sometimes it's a good thing they do. Look at the Pyrovore; clearly they didn't try to give a nice, new model any good rules and I'm sure it has hurt sales of it.

On the other hand, they make an amazing army book like the 7th ed Dark Elves (arguably broken, I just think it was very well-balanced and wholly viable) and yet fail to capitalize on sale of new models that could have come from renewing the line rather than carrying over from prior molds.

I'd say these are among the lesser of my personal pains with GW since it really is directly because of their prices that I still haven't finished my Dark Elf army.

Well at the end of the day they are buisness first hobby second, people think thats bad i think it's great. Most hobby shops run by hobbyist for hobbyist and put buisness secon, fail quite early on

Manchu wrote:I love 40k. But I only like GW.

This is so well said that it's a pity it's not getting more notice.

There's a gigantic difference between a product one likes and the company that produces it. You all are allowed to have different opinions of the two, you know.

Gorechild wrote:Sure the rules arent perfect, but its completely playable and is great fun. If they were that bad then there wouldnt be thousands of people playing it would there?

Just because the rules can be confusing at times (and on rare occasions dont make sense at all ) it doesnt mean my argument is flawed. Carrying on my analogy, you can still pay to see a crap movie and still have a good time if your there with friends. Playing 40k with friends you can find a way around all the stupid rules and still have alot of fun for your money.

This always bothers me.

I flame 5 orks in the front of a mob...

...and 5 in the back die.

Lol.

I've just kinda been slightly, kinda really pissed at GW since they closed down armorcast.

GW

Burn them! Burn them!

GW is a profit-hungry corporation masquerading as a friend and fellow hobbyist. It's that two-faced approach, I think, that bugs a lot of people. They're not quite what you want them to be, which bugs you, but they're so close in so many ways that the disappointment is all the greater for it.

If I could find another rules set, model range, and IP that I liked as much and people to play with, I would switch over. As it stands, none of the other reasonably popular wargames appeal to me nearly as much and it's pointless to find your perfect game if you'll never be able to play. I'll stick with GW's game and player base, even if I never buy anything else from them, until something better comes along. I want wargaming and I'll have wargaming, even if that means having such an ambivalent overlord as GW.

theduncan wrote:

I've just kinda been slightly, kinda really pissed at GW since they closed down armorcast.

Wait, what?

malfred wrote:

theduncan wrote:

I've just kinda been slightly, kinda really pissed at GW since they closed down armorcast.

Wait, what?

Armorcast used to make Titans (I think they even had an emperor one) until GW shut them down for IP reasons. It was also so people would have to buy forgeworld titans at forgeworld prices ($$$$$), as opposed to armorcast prices ($$$).

However. I will forgive when the new cron dex arrives. Have Matt Ward write it please so the C'tan become super OP and warriors get SM statlines and are good again .

theduncan wrote:

malfred wrote:

theduncan wrote:

I've just kinda been slightly, kinda really pissed at GW since they closed down armorcast.

Wait, what?

Armorcast used to make Titans (I think they even had an emperor one) until GW shut them down for IP reasons. It was also so people would have to buy forgeworld titans at forgeworld prices ($$$$$), as opposed to armorcast prices ($$$).

However. I will forgive when the new cron dex arrives. Have Matt Ward write it please so the C'tan become super OP and warriors get SM statlines and are good again .

They didn't shut them down, I thought. I thought armorcast had a license and GW
chose not to renew it.

Shutting them down makes it sound like that giant castle titan thing. I forget the name.