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Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:

Sckitzo wrote:
Thing is, they make OSHA approved masks that will seal over the hair, so it boils down into a fashion statement type deal. Alot of people see them as unprofessional, so alot of the militaries of the world do not have them, or if they do in small numbers.

In the military it's not about being unprofessional, it's about suppressing individuality.

Not entirely true. In the US, special operations and certain other units are authorized (in some cases required) beards for a variety of reasons. I believe the US is also making the allowance for Sikhs to have facial hair so long as it conveys a clean cut professional appearance. Hair regulations are actually fairly loose, you would be surprised how long you can actually have your hair, if people wear their hair short in a high & tight style, its because they choose to do it rather than because its an attempt to 'suppress individuality'. In fact, suppressing individuality in the US military is pretty much a non-issue. Perhaps 40 years ago in the days conscription it was necessary, but we have an all volunteer force these days, we don't have to break them down quite the same way anymore. BTW, mustaches ARE authorized for all personnel.

Gavo wrote:

MinMax wrote:
What up now?

/Thread.

This pic is a great example of why anything other than very short facial hair is a bad idea for marines - what happens when he tries to put his helmet on?

I am fairly sure there is a piece in the Fist's Index astartes about the space marines being able to control their hormones with some gland or other that the Imp fists are missing. Hence no facial hair on the less feral chapters. The only anomaly is Telion but perhaps he isn't a 'full' space marine? Also if you look at ancient cultures and modern military nearly all warriors are compulsive shavers. It is part of the disipline of being a warrior.

there may be few beards in the IG, but their is no shortage of massive facial scars. its a requirement or something.

Ymgarls have beards


I think the facial scars are a result of hazing. Release a few Rippers into the fresh meat's barrack house...

DarkHound wrote:

Evaelc wrote:Even the Ig i suppose wouldn't have beards as their life is highly milataristic (spelling?). So they wouldn't really have beards.

Men in Iraq have to have two things: a beard and a gun. That clean shaven spartans are the ideal soldiers is very... western. I'd say it is unfortunate from a continuity stand-point that GW's posterboys are the ideal spartan, given that the Emperor was "born" in Central Anatolia, just east of Iraq.

Ideal spartans had a full beard, and those who came back from battle in shame lost all their civil rights and had to shave half of it as a distinction.

I was being very specific when I didn't capitalize, Dark. When uncapitalized it means simple, frugal, and disciplined. They are beardless because they are spartan, not because they are Spartan.

Speaking of that quote: whoops, geographical fail.

Then my mistake, in my language we don't capitalize nationalities, so I assume that you do in english (one more thing I learn).

Perkustin wrote:I am fairly sure there is a piece in the Fist's Index astartes about the space marines being able to control their hormones with some gland or other that the Imp fists are missing. Hence no facial hair on the less feral chapters. The only anomaly is Telion but perhaps he isn't a 'full' space marine? Also if you look at ancient cultures and modern military nearly all warriors are compulsive shavers. It is part of the disipline of being a warrior.

Telion is a full marine - he turned down a spot in the 1st co. to go back to training scouts.

That said, if they have the ability to control hormonal release then a beard would be a matter of choice of. A beard is slightly more practical if you're not wearing a full face helmet (with mechanical neck seals) all the time.

Scott-S6 wrote:A beard is slightly more practical if you're not wearing a full face helmet (with mechanical neck seals) all the time.

If we're going by Ultramarines: the movie, then a small to medium-sized beard wouldn't be much of a problem, as those helmets pop on and off with ease.

Dark wrote:Then my mistake, in my language we don't capitalize nationalities, so I assume that you do in english (one more thing I learn).

English should have a capital there

FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU xD

Where is Kingcracker in all of this? if anyone on dakka can argue the beard, it's that man, hands down!

Yak9UT wrote:

This guy has some eyebrows, SERIOUS eyebrows !

As for the whole racial thing in the IG, you used to see it a lot more in earlier days, when I first got into the hobby back when I was about 12 there were many more non-white guardsmen, especially in catachan forces for some reason (actually the number seemed pretty proportional to the real-world)

Just seems to have fallen out of favour as time has gone on, maybe to save time when 'eavy metal has to paint those 50-man blob squads.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Gavo wrote:

MinMax wrote:
What up now?

/Thread.

This pic is a great example of why anything other than very short facial hair is a bad idea for marines - what happens when he tries to put his helmet on?

The beard just sticks out like this?

It's a little bit hard to wear a helmet when you have a beard as a space marine, especially one that has an seal around the neck to isolate said marine from nasty environments.

Space wolves follow the rule of cool and are thus exempt.

Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:In the military it's not about being unprofessional, it's about suppressing individuality.

Wrong.

As been stated in the thread already, some Armies do not allow beards because you cannot get a proper fit for your masks when there is a need to use them, which is why many soldiers died to chlorine attacks in WWI, as their masks were not getting a seal around the face. My job in the U.S Army was Chemical Operations Specialist, so take it from me, it was my job to make sure masks fit correctly on soldiers.

In the U.S. army, you are fully allowed to have various hair styles, side burns and mustaches as long as they fit a certain standard for professionalism, but the beard is a no no for safety reasons. The idea of stamping out individuality is a myth in the modern army.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Gavo wrote:

MinMax wrote:
What up now?

/Thread.

This pic is a great example of why anything other than very short facial hair is a bad idea for marines - what happens when he tries to put his helmet on?

Why would he need to put his helmet on? He has an iron halo, which in fluff terms is nearly inpenetrable, its only a 4+ in game so they arent god charachters walking around slaying everything with complete impunity. So with his force field he doesnt need to worry about snipers packing less than a railgun etc. (in gaunts ghosts books there was a chaos commander with a refractor field, only a 5+ in game and it took like 5 hotshot longlas rounds no problem, only failing to a string of 4 or 5 demolition charges)

As for poison gas? A poison strong enough to overcome a marines physiology is probably melting his ceramite armor anyways ...

So yea, logan grimnar doesnt need to wear his helmet all too often id imagine ...

Squash wrote:I've often wondered where all the black guardsmen are.

I have black guys in my Catachan army. Hell, 2nd Platoon's LT is black. His platoon currently has braggin rights over 1st Platoon's, 'cause 2nd Platoon swarmed and crushed a Banshee squad.

kill dem stunties wrote:Why would he need to put his helmet on?

Breathing in a vacuum?

Marines can.

Along with a bunch of other unreasonably mary sue stuff..

If you argued it hard enough at the fluff writers they'd just retcon that they can control their DNA enogh to retract the beards back into their faces at will...

(yes i do know how ridiculous this is, but look at some of the current fluff, like having the Emperor created by a bunch of psykers in the middle ages, healing machines by touch and pimp-slapping demigods etc etc...)

When we're talking about 40k reality fell off the boat many many nautical miles to our rear...

*edited for dyslexia*

Ascalam wrote:
(yes i do know how ridiculous this is, but look at some of the current fluff, like having the Emperor created by a bunch of psykers in the middle ages, healing machines by touch and pimp-slapping demigods etc etc...)

8000 BCE isn't the Middle Ages, just saying.

This is also what greenstuff is for.

I always imagined that the SM could get away with facial hair more, as at least in my mind, their helmet sees seals to the armor, not the jawline (as with modern military protective masks/rebreathers) so as long as they kept the beard tied up or short enough. Another reason that facial hair wasn't allowed, and short hair was required was lice and other critters like that. I could see things like lice being an issues with the IG, no so much the SM.

Ascalam wrote:Marines can.

No, they can't.

Closest is this - Mucranoid
Phase 16: This implant allows a Space Marine to sweat a substance that coats the skin and offers resistance to extreme heat and cold and can even provide some protection for the marine in a vacuum. This can only be activated by outside treatment, and is common when Space Marines are expected to be fighting in vacuum.

which just offers some protection from vacuum exposure - it does not allow them to breathe.

I was reading Flesh and Iron and by halfway through that book pretty much every Guardsman in the regiment has a beard. A lot of this is because of sanitary reasons, and they don't want to shave with swamp water.

Simply put, military units are typically clean-shaven, so most 40k models are. it's not a difficult or complex concept to grasp.

This dude has an epic beard (in the IG codex). what head is that from? his beard could slay armies.

Brother SRM wrote:I was reading Flesh and Iron and by halfway through that book pretty much every Guardsman in the regiment has a beard. A lot of this is because of sanitary reasons, and they don't want to shave with swamp water.

Simply put, military units are typically clean-shaven, so most 40k models are. it's not a difficult or complex concept to grasp.

This.

As multiple folks have pointed out, the modern US military (and many other modern militaries) do actually allow quite a bit more flexibility with hair and grooming than the popular conception holds. However, as someone else noted, this is in part a product of the culture of the countries in question, and in part also related to the modern, volunteer army. If your guys are highly-motivated, professionals who are there by choice, you don't need so much authoritarian conformity to enforce discipline. However, in conscript armies, it's more likely to be the case that the military in question enforces more conformity for unit cohesion and identity rebuilding. Everyone remembers the opening of Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket, right? With the new Marines entering training at Parris Island during the Vietnam War all getting their heads buzzed?

Remember too that GW is not making a modern wargame; they're making a game inspired by concepts of war and science fiction, and if the popular conception of military hair and facial hair is that it's more uniform than it is in real life, than it's not crazy or weird for GW to base their imagery off the popular conception, rather than the reality. Also, GW's imagery and visual/aesthetic inspiration for their Imperial military units draws from all sorts of sources, but WWI and WWII are much stronger influences than any modern military. Which makes flowing mustaches make a bit more sense when you think of WWI units. And makes uniformity a bit more understandable too. Space Marines aren't US Marines. They're warrior-monks with fanatical discipline and basically no personal lives. Within that context, the idea of shaving (or some futuristic alternative) any extraneous hair from the head and face also makes sense.

Another thought that occured to me is that the lack-of-beard issue may also be related to the squat, abnormal proportions of GW figures. As anyone who's ever put a WH or 40k model next to a good 28mm (or Heroic 28mm) model from almost any other manufacturer (or even GW itself's LotR line) can tell you, GW's proportions are whacked. The guys are generally much more squat and thick-built than properly-proportioned human beings. I wonder if leaving full beards as a rare thing is something GW's sculptors maintain as a conscious or unconcious policy, because their models would tend to look a lot like fantasy Dwarves if they had long beards.

Wow a bit intense discussion over facial hair

For me the marine chapters are very homogeneous, if that is correct spelling. Ie scouts 'take up' how to be a member of that chapter in more ways than taking their glands.

The style of ultras for example is clearly not very pro beard. Telion is a loner, awesome marksman and scout who loves to dissapear for days at a time all by himself. Dude wants to be different.

In thousand sons iot was funny to read how the wolves attacked without helmets on. Sure Iron Halo may protect a capt however a wolf guard in terminator armour with his head exposed?

I think a stable theme is important to GW - space vampires, space vikings, these write themselves.

Guard you can do more, and I think they have done more ie Voyustruans Firstborn. Who are all brilliant models if you can be bothered buying and painting hundreds of metal guardsmen.