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Where is the cheating?

The shunt is a move. Scouting allows you to move.

2 bits:

First; the thread should be locked, all the usual arguments for both sides have already been stated; with nothing new.

Second; you have not provided anything to show that Shunting is not "normal" movement, your explanation for how it is not means that Skimmers, jump infantry, and Jet bikes can never scout move via their normal movement. Or at least Jump infantry cannot use their Jump packs, since that is a choice vs "walking like infantry"

omerakk wrote:If you're just wanting to play ring around the rosey, then start doing it via private messages so we don't get this thread locked, but it seems like you're less interested in the rules and more interested in cheese hunting to cheat your friends at the local shop.

You have yet to provide a rules argument that doesnt end up in Jump Infantry, Jet Bikes and Skimmers being unable to use their movement rules.

Or, in other words - you are unable to provide a non-absurd rules argument.

Oh, and finally: dont insult other posters by stating we have ulterior motives. Have a quick glance at the tenets.

Yes it is legal yes it gives you a 48" assault range in turn 1. Pretty much like every 5th Ed codex you can assault on turn 1 if you want to (Orks - Deffkopters, SM - LSSs and Scout Bikes, BA - Scout bikes, IG - Valkyries, DE - Fleeting Wyches and almost anything, GK - Interceptors and Dreadknights).

Just like using smoke launchers and turboboosting is legal shunting is legal as you can normally do it in your movement phase just as the Scouts USR states.

okay thanks Guys!!!

I really appreciate the time and the different insights esp. considering the obvious issues that have come from this question, now and past.
...

I do have to say the only thing still keeping is that nothing has been spoken against where the codex states that it

COUNTS AS MOVING

only a couple of things to maybe point out to some whom have commented but weren't corrected:

1) this rule does allow you to assault if the shunt is done as a scout move: (because the scout move takes place B4 the start of the game)

2) if this is done as a scout move you must remain within 12" of your opp. (scout rule see org. post for exact wording)


On a side note I do not appreciate my sportsmanship and general creed being called into question based on a rules question.

Nor do I appreciate being considered a lesser for of life or childish and stupid, because I enjoy a specific collection of rules used in tangent with one another.

I apologize if I have some how unknowingly drawn a parallel to a negative encounter in your past experience within these forums and or elsewhere _ this was not my intention _ so I hope you would refrain in the future to not assuming the worst from me.
Thank You!

And again Guys Thank You ALL so much for expressing your interpretations and having gusto to stand firm and fully explain and provide examples and detail for a Noob like my self

Sincerely,
DereK

BTW
nosferatu1001:

Thanks for the tip on the Headers


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1

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Second; you have not provided anything to show that Shunting is not "normal" movement, your explanation for how it is not means that Skimmers, jump infantry, and Jet bikes can never scout move via their normal movement. Or at least Jump infantry cannot use their Jump packs, since that is a choice vs "walking like infantry"

Uh...that's right in the GK codex. The part that defines shunting as not movement? Instead of talking about a movement, it talks about replacing movement?

Turbo-boosting and Flat out are both moves and done as part of your move. See the USR. Shunting is not done as part of your move. It is done instead.

If you are given permission only to fire, you do not have permission to run - even though it happens in the same phase. Likewise with scouting, you are not given permission to take a movement phase, you are given permission to take a normal movement.

It all comes down to the three words, "Instead of moving..."

Coteaz gets to have his unit fire at units arriving from reserves within 12". You guys are arguing that he'd be allowed to get a free run towards that unit because it happens in the shooting phase. Well...you don't. You get to shoot at the unit, not take a shooting phase. And during scouts, you get to take a normal movement, not a movement phase - and shunting defines itself as exclusionary to that.

That's simply incorrect, Dash.

Turbo-boosting replaces a unit's normal move in exactly the same way that Shunting replaces the unit's normal move.

Dashofpepper wrote:Uh...that's right in the GK codex. The part that defines shunting as not movement? Instead of talking about a movement, it talks about replacing movement?

Turbo-boosting and Flat out are both moves and done as part of your move. See the USR. Shunting is not done as part of your move. It is done instead.

Making a move instead of a move still satisfies the scout rule, no contradiction here.

If you are given permission only to fire, you do not have permission to run - even though it happens in the same phase. Likewise with scouting, you are not given permission to take a movement phase, you are given permission to take a normal movement.

So how come you are allowed to use smoke launchers? They can be used during you scout move and fit nowhere here.

It all comes down to the three words, "Instead of moving..."

It does not, it comes down to the entire rule, not some fragment of it.
"Instead of moving... the unit... makes a moves... This move... A unit that moves via teleport shunt... counts as having moved."
So how is this not a move?

Coteaz gets to have his unit fire at units arriving from reserves within 12". You guys are arguing that he'd be allowed to get a free run towards that unit because it happens in the shooting phase. Well...you don't. You get to shoot at the unit, not take a shooting phase. And during scouts, you get to take a normal movement, not a movement phase - and shunting defines itself as exclusionary to that.

Actually he could run around like a madman when seeing reserves arrive, if it were not for "Run!" to explicitly call for the units own shooting phase. It's the same reason "during your movement phase" psychic abilities can't used during scout moves. Shunt is missing such a restriction, while summon is not.
Shunt can be done instead of a move, which mean whenever you can move, you can opt to shunt, not more, not less. "Normal move" is not a restriction. Scout does only place a single restriction on anything done during this move, which is staying 12" away from enemies. Everything else which does not explicitly call for the movement phase is fair game.

Mannahnin wrote:That's simply incorrect, Dash.

Turbo-boosting replaces a unit's normal move in exactly the same way that Shunting replaces the unit's normal move.

I looked up Turbo-boosting...it doesn't say "Instead of moving" or "In place of moving" or anything to suggest that a replacement or alternative is happening...


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bushido wrote:Where is the cheating?

The shunt is a move. Scouting allows you to move.

Assaults are moves. Scouting allows you to assault!

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:That's simply incorrect, Dash.

Turbo-boosting replaces a unit's normal move in exactly the same way that Shunting replaces the unit's normal move.

I looked up Turbo-boosting...it doesn't say "Instead of moving" or "In place of moving" or anything to suggest that a replacement or alternative is happening...

You still do it instead of normal moving, don't you?

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bushido wrote:Where is the cheating?

The shunt is a move. Scouting allows you to move.

Assaults are moves. Scouting allows you to assault!

Scouting allows a move done exactly as in the movement phase. Assaults can not be used during the movement phase, and thus not during scouting. Shunt can be used during the movement phase.

The Scout rules themselves preclude assault movements(as you are not allowed within 12" of the enemy).

Also Assault moves are not done in the movement phase.

Q: Can you do it in your movement phase, while, as, or instead of moving?

If yes, than you can do it while scouting.

Can't Baal predators use their smoke launchers in a scout move?

Yes, they can. Which is an indication that simply being "single use" is NOT sufficient to make it abnormal.

Jidmah wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:That's simply incorrect, Dash.

Turbo-boosting replaces a unit's normal move in exactly the same way that Shunting replaces the unit's normal move.

I looked up Turbo-boosting...it doesn't say "Instead of moving" or "In place of moving" or anything to suggest that a replacement or alternative is happening...

You still do it instead of normal moving, don't you?

Actually the TB rule states "may move up to 24'' in the Movement Phase". In no way does this suggest it is not a normal move, rather just a new distance for that normal move. The GK codex clearly states it replaces a normal move. I really don't see the argument for the "yes" camp...

TB = apples, Shunt = Oranges.


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Kommissar Kel wrote:
Q: Can you do it in your movement phase, while, as, or instead of moving?

If yes, than you can do it while scouting.

That is not what the Scout USR says. It states units may take a normal move. It explicitly states "Normal Move". If you want to argue shunting is legal, I really think you need to find a way to argue that it is a normal move. That will be difficult since the GK codex explicitly states that it isn't.

Sorry, where does it state it removes their normal move? The word "normal" is not used at all.

SO a movement granted by a SPECIAL Rule (USR) is normal, whereas movement granted by another SPECIAL rule is abnormal?

You are, frankly, making stuff up now. The word NORMAL does not appear in the Shunt rules. Please either back this statement up with rules (which you cannot do) or retract it. Now.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sorry, where does it state it removes their normal move? The word "normal" is not used at all.

SO a movement granted by a SPECIAL Rule (USR) is normal, whereas movement granted by another SPECIAL rule is abnormal?

You are, frankly, making stuff up now. The word NORMAL does not appear in the Shunt rules. Please either back this statement up with rules (which you cannot do) or retract it. Now.

Why are you acting like an internet tough guy? Frankly, that is uncalled for. Stop it.

It explicitly states that the shunt replaces movement. I think it is pretty clear this is not a normal movement, as it replaces movement.

"Normal move" is defined as movement done during the movement phase, right there in the scout rules, no other definition exists, yours is made up. Shunt can be done during your movement phase, so it is a normal move.

As you have no rules to quote, you're making up rules. This is not a far step from equipping all your models with rail guns and calling it legit.

What rule am I making up? I must be missing something.

The quoted part of the Scout USR is a real quote. It says normal move. It then goes onto say, this is done as in their normal movement phase. You seem to be interpreting that as to mean if it can happen during movement phase, it can happen during scouting move. But I disagree to that, as it says a normal move.

It is like Dash said. Just because running and shooting happen during the same phase doesn't mean they are interchangeable in all situations. Sometimes you can only do one. In this case, Shunting is an alternative to moving, and as such is not a normal movement. It replaces the movement.

I wish my Baal Predator could scout move then pop smoke. would be handy if someone stole the initiative from you.

More people seem to lean towards "no" with good reason. But i still might try it on someone. I can use the "i'm just a noob excuse". haha!

To me it sounds like you should be able to shunt during the scout move, just like a turbo-boost.

Of course, this will hopefully be answered in very plain writing in the FAQ.

Your Baal Predator can pop smoke during a scout move. It's in the Blood Angels FAQ.

It would seem that their definition of "normal" is pretty lenient.

Choboking wrote:What rule am I making up?

But I disagree to that

That one. There is no rule to be found defining "normal move" other than "This is done exactly as in their movement phase". Exactly means exactly, no exception for any funky moves using teleporters.

Blood Splatter:

Q: Can a Baal Predator use smoke launchers during its
Scout move? (p36)
A: Yes. (BA FAQ)

Most people seem to lean towards "no" because it feels wrong, it seems to strong, they hate GK and/or Matt Ward, or just because.

It explicitly states that the shunt replaces movement. I think it is pretty clear this is not a normal movement, as it replaces movement.

So choboking what is a normal move by your understanding and where is that defined?

What we have is the BrB Scouts rule stating that a normal move is what you do in your movement phase. We have every FaQ regarding something you can do in your movement phase being allowed in the scout move.

So I was wondering where you got your definition for a "normal move" from? And what else is disallowed beyond the Shunt? Or is your definition simply anything but Shunt because I think its over powered?

Jidmah wrote:
That one. There is no rule to be found defining "normal move" other than "This is done exactly as in their movement phase". Exactly means exactly, no exception for any funky moves using teleporters..

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. So really it isn't me making up rules at all, it is interpreting the words of a rule that you seem to not like.

Well' I suppose we just have to disagree. If the scout USR says you may take a normal move as in the movement phase, and the Shunt states that it replacement movement, then the shunt cannot be considered a normal move, IMO. I'm not attempting to define a normal move, I am simply interpreting shunting as NOT a normal move. Sorry if you don't like it, but I'm not making anything up, just trying to interpret poorly specified rules.

And my original point about TB not applying to this still stands. Tthe TB rule never states that it replaces movement, so at the very least please don't cite that as president in your arguments. They are not the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Flingit

I'm not trying to define a normal move, but you are misquoting the scout USR. It does not define a normal move at all. It simply states the the normal move (however it is defined) is taken just the same as in the movement phase.

If a shunt replaces movement, can you tell me how that can be considered a normal move? It isn't movement at all. It just happens during the same phase.

I'm not trying to define a normal move, but you are misquoting the scout USR. It does not define a normal move at all. It simply states the the normal move (however it is defined) is taken just the same as in the movement phase.

If a shunt replaces movement, can you tell me how that can be considered a normal move? It isn't movement at all. It just happens during the same phase.

So what is your defintiion of a normal move. Without one how can you say that Shunt isn't a normal move?

It is movement as the rule tells you and it is done during the movement phase (as Scouts tells us a normal move is).

Unless you have a definition for normal move you have no argument against anything counting or not counting.

Interpreting is scientificly making things up based on your oppinion. Rules are not supposed to be interpreted, so you may not unless there is an obvious error breaking the game.

Shunting is still moving(the rule itself says so four times), even if it does replace the original move. There is no evidence of "moving via teleport shunt" not being a normal move, nor is there any evidence of scout forbidding substituting the move it grants with shunting, turbo boosting, or doing the chicken dance. The "nothing but a normal move" everyone seems to be "interpreting" does not exist.

Unless either evidence can be provided as quoted rules, your interpretation is wrong.

Choboking - you made up two elements.

1) You stated that the Shunt rule states it replaces normal movement. It does not. WHen called on it you got defensive and ignored the request. So, please either accept you are wrong on this, or find something in the shunt rule supporting your position

2) SHunt states, four times, that it is a move. Guess that makes it a "move" then. And, as it is a move you can normally perform during your movement phase, it is something you can do during the Scout move.

You may not like it, but your opinion has no rules merit whatsoever

Oh, and its "precedent"

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:That's simply incorrect, Dash.

Turbo-boosting replaces a unit's normal move in exactly the same way that Shunting replaces the unit's normal move.

I looked up Turbo-boosting...it doesn't say "Instead of moving" or "In place of moving" or anything to suggest that a replacement or alternative is happening...

I looked up the bike rules. They clearly state that they move up to 12" in the movement phase. So the TB special rule clearly is done in place of that normal move.

It works just the same, Dash. A special rule replacing the normal move.

Even the "it's only once per game, so it can't be normal" argument doesn't work, because GW specifically ruled that you can even use Smoke Launchers in a Scout move.

Mannahnin wrote:
Turbo-boosting replaces a unit's normal move in exactly the same way that Shunting replaces the unit's normal move.

No, it does not. Turbo-boosting extends the range of your movement by additional inches. It does not replace movement. There is no exact comparison to make between them.

Shunting specifically calls out replacing movement with a shunt. Turbo-boosting specifically does not call out replacing movement with a turbo-boost. Don't compare them.

omerakk wrote:If you're just wanting to play ring around the rosey, then start doing it via private messages so we don't get this thread locked, but it seems like you're less interested in the rules and more interested in cheese hunting to cheat your friends at the local shop.

Hey can you guys go get in an argument somewhere else? I don't come here to hear a bunch of whining about why you interpretation is better than his or vice versa.It's really easy to be mature. One of you thinks scouting is legal - and gave your reasons for it. one of you thinks it isn't legal - and gave your reasons for it. for that point on all you did was bicker and say no I'm right and repeat yourselves. its one thing to have constructive replies by neither of you are doing so. I'm disappointed in both of you seeing as you guys do a lot of posting around here.

On a second note.

Scout shunting has been ruled legal at my FLGS. From a practical real world stand-point, it hardly changes the game. While shunt-punching is a potent tool it is easily countered with back board deployments or null deployments. Whether it gets FAQ'd pro- or anti- the shunt punch is not as intimidating as the internet mania machine has made it. So, please everyone take a breather, calm down, and grow up because i respect the opinions of all the posters on here and appreciate their commitment to the forum.