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Choboking wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
Actually, I can point to the Bike movement entry where Turbo-boosting is clearly included however Shunting is not under the movement entry for Jump Infantry.

And while you keep pointing out things that HAVE been FAQ to be allowed in the Scout move, do you have a FAQ that allows you to Shunt during the Scout move?

As said by Deadshane, "lemme look for any reason that I can find as to why someone might not be able to 'shunt' during a scout move...there...I found it. Even though it says at the end of the rules for personal teleporters 'unit counts as having moved' it still doesnt state that it's a normal movement."

You questioning his motivations really doesn't make the point hes making any weaker. Someone could say people arguing in favor of scout shunt just want to gain as much advantage as they can get away with, that wouldn't wouldn't mean their argument is wrong just because of their motives.

@Mannahnin
Regarding Turbo-Boosting and Shunt, it seems Dash is saying that what makes them different is that Shunting has a line stating it is done instead of moving. Turbo-boosting has no comparable line. Thus, by that quality, Turbo Boosting is "more normal" than Shunting.

Interestingly enough, I have no vested interest in whether it allows or disallows. I am of the opinion that until the FAQ allows it, then it isn't allowed. Whereas the counterargument is that because it was allowed for smoke launchers, turbo-boosting, and disembarking (with a FAQ which the other side tends to ignore) that it should just arbitrarily be allowed now without a FAQ.

Brother Ramses wrote:
And Walrus, I am not arguing that it isn't a move. It tells you what a Teleport Shunt consists of (which includes physically moving the model and counting as movement), but it is still a Teleport Shunt, not a move.

Brother Ramses wrote:
[...] but it is still a Teleport Shunt, not a move.

What?

Mannahnin, there is no definition of normal movement in the rulebook. You are correct. So, to be as broad and sweeping and inclusive as possible...I said "include EVERYTHING in the ENTIRE rulebook under the movement section."

Teleport shunting, nor teleportation, nor any special movement is in there. I gave a whole list of movements you can't make in the scout phase because they are special.

Disagree with me if you like, but present a *better* definition first. Arguing for the sake of arguing without any evidence to back it up...not so useful.

Especially when all the evidence points to the opposite. Like the Shunting entry in the GK codex. The part that says that ya don't get to take a movement if you are going to shunt. Scouting is for movement, not for things that replace it.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
And Walrus, I am not arguing that it isn't a move. It tells you what a Teleport Shunt consists of (which includes physically moving the model and counting as movement), but it is still a Teleport Shunt, not a move.

Brother Ramses wrote:
[...] but it is still a Teleport Shunt, not a move.

What?

Where is the mental stumbling block?

Let me make this easy;

What does GW call the action of physically moving a model equipped with a personal teleporter once per game up to 30"?

Brother Ramses wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I reiterate, even under your definition of "everything in the movement chapter is normal movement", Turbo-Boosting is in NO WAY any more of a normal move than Shunting is.

There is no definition for a "normal move". Years ago, possibly before you started playing, GW ruled that you couldn't Turbo Boost in a Scout move, because that's not a "normal move." As I pointed out before, they even printed this in the Dark Angels codex as well, on page 27.

They have since reversed this rationale. Seriously, read the FAQ. On page 5 one of the questions is whether bikes can turbo in a scout move, and the answer is "Yes, they now can."

Is popping smoke a normal move?
Is turbo-boosting a normal move?
Is disembarking a normal move?

These are all special actions or variant ways to move (take your pick), which do not conform to a given unit type's specified movement rate.

And GW has explicitly ruled in the FAQ, in every one of these cases, that they're allowable in a Scout move.

Actually, I can point to the Bike movement entry where Turbo-boosting is clearly included however Shunting is not under the movement entry for Jump Infantry.

The Bike movement entry advises you that Bikes also have the Turbo-Boost Special Rule, without describing said special rule. Which seems to make implicitly clear that Turb-boosting is not how they normally move.

Brother Ramses wrote:And while you keep pointing out things that HAVE been FAQ to be allowed in the Scout move, do you have a FAQ that allows you to Shunt during the Scout move?

I don't have to. The FAQs (the non-Errata parts, anyway) are, officially, clarifications. While we all know and recognize that occasionally GW DOES change a rule in a FAQ answer, but in general that's not the case. Most FAQ answers are just clarifications of how the rule is intended to work.

That being the case, the clear pattern of answers on Scout moves- in regards to turbo-ing, disembarking, popping smoke, hitting in CC, and gaining cover saves both for Turbo and for Flat Out, makes GW's reasoning around Scout moves pretty clear. You get to do whatever you would normally get to do in your movement phase (except come within 12" of the enemy).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:Mannahnin, there is no definition of normal movement in the rulebook. You are correct. So, to be as broad and sweeping and inclusive as possible...I said "include EVERYTHING in the ENTIRE rulebook under the movement section."

Teleport shunting, nor teleportation, nor any special movement is in there. I gave a whole list of movements you can't make in the scout phase because they are special.

Disagree with me if you like, but present a *better* definition first. Arguing for the sake of arguing without any evidence to back it up...not so useful.

Especially when all the evidence points to the opposite. Like the Shunting entry in the GK codex. The part that says that ya don't get to take a movement if you are going to shunt. Scouting is for movement, not for things that replace it.

Dash, your entire argument applies equally well to Turbo-boosting. It's not a valid argument.

Go read the FAQs again.

Look at the ruling on turbo-ing.
Look at the ruling on smoke.
Look at the ruling on disembarking.
Look at the ruling on hitting a vehicle in close combat which moved in a Scout move, not an actual movement phase.
Look at the ruling on whether a skimmer moving flat out in a scout move gets a cover save, despite it not actually having been a movement phase.
Look at the ruling on whether a scout turbo-boosting bike gets a cover save, despite it not having been a move in a movement phase.

All the evidence clearly indicates that Shunting is fine in a Scout move, just as Turbo-Boosting, disembarking, and popping smoke are.

Guess the only real solution is to 4+ it.

If I don't get to win the 4+ I guess I'll just have to Scout-Jump 12", Jump 12" then Charge 6....you still get jumped in HtH.

If you insist on not 4+ing it...well...I guess you need to point out the rule that clearly defines everything that is a "normal move"....

....then you have to explain why Shunting isnt a "normal move" even though the wargear description clearly states "model counts as having moved". (sounds like a normal move to me)

BR - they said it is a move.

Shunt == move. AS it tells you. 3 times.


You're claiming a move is not a move, and have absolutely no rules basis for this. None

What is this a description of?

Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units, terrain, and so. A unit that moves via teleport shunt cannot assault in the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved.

A teleport shunt.

What is a teleport shunt done instead of?

Moving.

The models are moved on the table to represent a teleport shunt. The models count as moving to represent a teleport shunt. But a teleport shunt is not moving as per whatever tag or marker GW has designated as moving because it is specifically done instead of moving.

Now please, OTHER then continuing to point out that the model is moved to represent a teleport shunt, please tell me how a teleport shunt is moving, DESPITE the rule specifically that it is done instead of moving. Because the description of how to do a teleport shunt is not grounds to classify it as moving when the rule starts out with the qualifier from the beginning that what you are about to do is specfically done instead of moving.

Deadshane1 wrote:Guess the only real solution is to 4+ it.

If I don't get to win the 4+ I guess I'll just have to Scout-Jump 12", Jump 12" then Charge 6....you still get jumped in HtH.

If you insist on not 4+ing it...well...I guess you need to point out the rule that clearly defines everything that is a "normal move"....

....then you have to explain why Shunting isnt a "normal move" even though the wargear description clearly states "model counts as having moved". (sounds like a normal move to me)

Anal FTW.

Actually...its a permissive ruleset. You may do things because you are given permission to ----- not that you may do them unless you are denied permission. No one needs to prove that shunting isn't a normal movement for you to scout-shunt, you must prove that it *is* a normal movement to be able to do so. And at this point, such proof is not possible.

@Mannahnin: You keep going back to turbo-boosting. Its USE is explained in the movement section. So what if it is defined elsewhere? If you want to compare it to Shunting, that would be the same as shunting being referenced in the movement section, and defined elsewhere. It obviously is not. Turbo-boosting is a NORMAL movement that applies to ALL categories of a certain unit type. Probably why it is included in the movement section.

Dash....your point is irrelevant.

You cannot prove that ANYTHING is a "normal movement".

Normal movement is not any sort of classification in the rulebook. You move, or you dont...there is no "normal" move.

Please...show me some other sort of "abnormal" move in the game that you wouldnt be able to "scout" with. One where a model is on one point of the table....then during the movement phase "instead of taking a normal move" moves to another point.

...or are you just picking on Shunt for no other reason than to take down the Grey Knight codex for some reason.

Your space marine model can move 6" correct? Tell me what page in the rulebook states that this is a "normal" move. You wont. I guess space marines on foot cannot Scout-move b/c you cannot find anywhere in the rulebook that states that they "move normally". In fact, the entire movement section never mentions "normal moves". Essentially you're making up rules....or are you telling me that nothing in the game can scout, since nothing "moves normally" as defined by the rules.

Scout rules state that you may make a "normal move....".

If personal teleporters said "instead of making a normal move, you may shunt" you might have a point, but it doesnt, so you dont.

There is nothing in that book that tells me that shunting is not a "normal move" but this is probably b/c a "normal move" is not any sort of classification of move. It's not a rulebook term.

You're making stuff up to enforce your point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's talk about reading comprehension. (not trying to be rude to you dash...but c'mon already!)

Scout: .....but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy.

This is word for word.

What does it mean, or more specifically, what does "normal move" mean?

Is it a classification of movement? No it is not. B/c "normal movement" is not a classification of movement. A jump pack marine may move 6" without packs or 12" with packs. If that jump pack is a personal teleporter you may shunt 30"...there is no 'normal' or 'abnormal' classification to it. This is not a rulebook term or USR we're talking about here.

When the rule states "normal move" it is simply stating that other than the special consideration for moving before the game starts proper...nothing changes about the unit's movement....IT IS NORMAL. "Make your move before the game starts...otherwise, move normally." This is what the USR for Scouting is stating. It's not trying to omit certain types of movement from the "Scout" advantage....not in this version of the rules. Choose how you want to move with your scouting unit: Combat speed, Cruising speed, Flat out, Flat out with smoke; 12", turbo boost; or in the case of these personal teleporters- 6", 12", or 30". Pick your option and move normally (other than moving b4 the game starts)


....and for you guys that say that Shunting isnt moving your model, I dont beleive your comments deserve a retort.

Instead of calling people anal, questioning their motives, or telling them to leave the thread; how about you actually read the thread thoroughly and construct a valid argument. So far all you have done is add colored commentary with no substance.

The rule, yea the actual rule in the codex, tells you it is done instead of moving. Address that specifc qualifier before the description of how to perform a TELEPORT SHUNT instead of just the veiled personal insults you want to toss around.

Brother Ramses wrote:Instead of calling people anal, questioning their motives, or telling them to leave the thread; how about you actually read the thread thoroughly and construct a valid argument. So far all you have done is add colored commentary with no substance.

The rule, yea the actual rule in the codex, tells you it is done instead of moving.

Really?

Personal teleporter- "Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move of up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores......A unit that moves via a teleport shunt cannot assault......The unit counts as having moved."

Rudeness redacted

Brother Ramses wrote:What is this a description of?

If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units, terrain, and so. A unit that moves via teleport shunt cannot assault in the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved.

A teleport shunt.

What is a teleport shunt done instead of?

Moving.

The models are moved on the table to represent a teleport shunt. The models count as moving to represent a teleport shunt. But a teleport shunt is not moving as per whatever tag or marker GW has designated as moving because it is specifically done instead of moving.

Now please, OTHER then continuing to point out that the model is moved to represent a teleport shunt, please tell me how a teleport shunt is moving, DESPITE the rule specifically that it is done instead of moving. Because the description of how to do a teleport shunt is not grounds to classify it as moving when the rule starts out with the qualifier from the beginning that what you are about to do is specfically done instead of moving.

Do you know what moving is? It's "In his turn, a player may move any of his units – all of them if he wishes – up to their maximum movement distance" Pg 11
and scouting?
"any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy" Pg 76

So unless you are trying to say that one could never use a teleport shunt... because a scout move is 'exactly as in their movment phase' and I'm sure something can shunt in the movement phase, once per game.

Rudeness redacted.

Denying that a unit is moving even though its specific rules say that it IS moving.

Wow.

That's the best arguement here that I've seen yet. Ballsy at least.

Must be hard to beat in a game of 40k with knowledge like that.


me-"O.k. I'm going to shoot your DE raider there with this unit of Long Fang Missle Launchers."

him-"You cannot do that."

me-"Why? I've got perfect line of sight and I'm only (measures) 24" away with a range of 48"."

him-"your unit cannot shoot me... it cannot shoot."

me-"Why? I'm not pinned or anything."

Him-"that unit cannot shoot."

me-"Ummm, they have missle launchers...they can shoot, everything in the rules say that they can shoot and that they do in the shooting phase if I wish."

him-"No, they cannot shoot, it may say that they can shoot, but they cannot."

me-"....but...."

him-"No, they cannot shoot."

me-.....*......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Instead of calling people anal, questioning their motives, or telling them to leave the thread; how about you actually read the thread thoroughly and construct a valid argument. So far all you have done is add colored commentary with no substance.

The rule, yea the actual rule in the codex, tells you it is done instead of moving.

Really?

Personal teleporter- "Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move of up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores......A unit that moves via a teleport shunt cannot assault......The unit counts as having moved."

Brother Ramses wrote:Thanks for proving my point that the moving inserted in the DESCRIPTION of how to do a TELEPORT SHUNT is just that, a DESCRIPTION of an action that is done INSTEAD of moving called a TELEPORT SHUNT.

What part of "the unit counts as having moved" do you not understand? I would like to attempt to help you understand this phrase if you need help with it.

ChrisCP wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:What is this a description of?

If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units, terrain, and so. A unit that moves via teleport shunt cannot assault in the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved.

A teleport shunt.

What is a teleport shunt done instead of?

Moving.

The models are moved on the table to represent a teleport shunt. The models count as moving to represent a teleport shunt. But a teleport shunt is not moving as per whatever tag or marker GW has designated as moving because it is specifically done instead of moving.

Now please, OTHER then continuing to point out that the model is moved to represent a teleport shunt, please tell me how a teleport shunt is moving, DESPITE the rule specifically that it is done instead of moving. Because the description of how to do a teleport shunt is not grounds to classify it as moving when the rule starts out with the qualifier from the beginning that what you are about to do is specfically done instead of moving.

Do you know what moving is? It's "In his turn, a player may move any of his units – all of them if he wishes – up to their maximum movement distance" Pg 11
and scouting?
"any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy" Pg 76

So unless you are trying to say that one could never use a teleport shunt... because a scout move is 'exactly as in their movment phase' and I'm sure something can shunt in the movement phase, once per game.

Not at all Chris.

A unit with personal teleporters is Jump Infantry and per their movement rules in the BRB can choose a 6" movement or a 12" movement. Instead of doing either of those movements, the unit can elect to perform a teleport shunt which is <insert description of rule>.

Dashofpepper wrote: No one needs to prove that shunting isn't a normal movement for you to scout-shunt, you must prove that it *is* a normal movement to be able to do so. And at this point, such proof is not possible.

No, that's not correct. The FAQs have clarified that anything you can normally do in the movement phase is normal movement. As illustrated by all the FAQ answers I've referenced.

Dashofpepper wrote:@Mannahnin: You keep going back to turbo-boosting. Its USE is explained in the movement section.

No, it's not. It's explained in the Universal Special Rules section. The movement chapter says absolutely nothing about it. The Unit Types section just tells you that Bikes HAVE the rule. It doesn't tell you how it works. You have made multiple statements in this discussion which make me wonder if you're actually reading the rulebook. Have you gotten around to reading the FAQ, like I asked you?

Dashofpepper wrote:@ So what if it is defined elsewhere? If you want to compare it to Shunting, that would be the same as shunting being referenced in the movement section, and defined elsewhere. It obviously is not. Turbo-boosting is a NORMAL movement that applies to ALL categories of a certain unit type. Probably why it is included in the movement section.

It's not in the movement chapter. It's referenced in the movement section of the Bike rules, but not explained there. As we covered earlier, it's clearly not a normal move, as you have to invoke a Special Rule to do it. Originally GW ruled (see the Dark Angels codex) that since it was not a "normal move" (the entire basis of your argument against Shunting), that it was not allowed in a Scout move. But they have since changed their mind, and made it obvious via a SERIES of consistent FAQ clarifications that you can do basically whatever you would do in a movement phase, in your Scout move. Except move within 12".

Ramses...please...just....stop now.

Stating that Shunting is not a movement when the end of the rule states "the unit counts as moving".....well, that and besides the fact that you pick the model up and physically move it....

You're just making a fool of yourself. Really.

Beerfart wrote:Ramses...please...just....stop now.

Stating that Shunting is not a movement when the end of the rule states "the unit counts as moving".....well, that and besides the fact that you pick the model up and physically move it....

You're just making a fool of yourself. Really.

Dude. You "utilize your movement" in 40k for different things. Deadshane asked for a list - I provided it a page or three ago. Just because something counts as having taken an action doesn't mean that it did. Doing something that "counts as" movement doesn't mean that it did.

Shunting replaces movement with a special action. To prevent people from taking a normal movement after shunting, they said that you must shunt instead of taking your movement.

Need examples? When you ram 2" with a battlewagon, you count as having moved cruising speed, and so may not fire its weapons, nor its passengers. When you deep-strike, you count as having moved at cruising speed. Even Monoliths, who cannot attain cruising speed.

Shunting doesn't count as a normal movement just because you physically move the models - it counts as a movement so that you may not move further. The codex writer, in an effort to identify exactly what his intentions were, specifically explains in the shunt rule how to classify shunting: It is a special action that replaces your movement, and at the conclusion of it, you count as having moved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:

No, that's not correct. The FAQs have clarified that anything you can normally do in the movement phase is normal movement. As illustrated by all the FAQ answers I've referenced.

Yes...like popping smoke. Or...maybe a Farseer casting fortune on units? Or Tervigons spawning termigants? If an FAQ shows up that rules against what the codex entry says...so be it. It is what it is. But until then, there are thousands and millions of copies of the GK codex floating around out there that all say the same thing - Shunting is done instead of your movement. It is by definition special. You don't turbo-boost instead of moving, you don't pop smoke instead of moving - which is why I don't put particular credence in the FAQs that you keep pointing out.

There are no similarly ruled codices or FAQs. If Matt wanted shunting to count as a normal movement, all he would have had to do is...leave a few words out of the entry. Why do you suppose all the extra ink was used to explicitly categorize shunting as a replacement for your movement options instead of something that would have merged nicely into scouting? Its almost like he did it on purpose!

I'm sorry, I find your explanation completely closed minded, strained and quite manipulative of the rules.

I find Mannahein's and Deadshane's examples much more sensible, within the spirit of the rules, and better attuned to the proper interpretation of written language.

Beerfart wrote:I'm sorry, I find your explanation completely closed minded, strained and quite manipulative of the rules.

I find Mannahein's and Deadshane's examples much more sensible, within the spirit of the rules, and better attuned to the proper interpretation of written language.

That's nice. I think my interpretation of my Necron rules are more sensible than what is written in my codex too. All my wraiths are STR6 but have power weapons, don't need a rez orb for WBB, and get 2+ rerollable cover since they are GHOSTS! And every unit that shoots at them must pass a leadership test or quail before the idea of fighting the supernatural.

I think it is much more sensible, within the spirit of the rules, and better attuned to the proper interpretation of written language.

Your sentence is also oxymoronic. Yes, I *am* close minded. I see the rule, and it is black and white. Something that is defined as "not your movement, must sacrifice your movement to perform" is pretty black and white to me as something you don't get to do if only a normal movement is allowed. Contrarily, it takes some straining of the rules and manipulation of the words (and a hefty dose of LALALALA doesn't hurt) to arrive at another conclusion.

*edit* And thus far, the only attempt I've seen to explain how Shunting qualifies as normal movement is "Other codices have FAQs that allow them to move during their scout phase" which I find irrelevant since all references are actually for things that *are* defined as movement of some sort, and not a special replacement for it, and "Since it counts as having moved, it must be normal movement." Right. Because "counts as having moved cruising speed" means you actually moved 7-12" right?

Teleport Shunt wrote:If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units, terrain, and so. A unit that moves via teleport shunt cannot assault in the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved.

The first, second, and third sentences all make entirely clear that shunting IS movement. The unit moves. It makes a move.

The FAQ permitting Turbo-Boosting is MOST CERTAINLY a similar case. It's the closest possible case.

If Shunting is disallowed, so is Turbo-Boosting. They're both forms of movement which are allowed by Special Rules and take the place of the unit's regular move.

Brother Ramses wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:What is this a description of?

If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move up to 30" in any direction. This move cannot end on top of another unit or in impassable terrain, but ignores intervening units, terrain, and so. A unit that moves via teleport shunt cannot assault in the same turn, although it can shoot or run as normal. The unit counts as having moved.

A teleport shunt.

What is a teleport shunt done instead of?

Moving.

The models are moved on the table to represent a teleport shunt. The models count as moving to represent a teleport shunt. But a teleport shunt is not moving as per whatever tag or marker GW has designated as moving because it is specifically done instead of moving.

Now please, OTHER then continuing to point out that the model is moved to represent a teleport shunt, please tell me how a teleport shunt is moving, DESPITE the rule specifically that it is done instead of moving. Because the description of how to do a teleport shunt is not grounds to classify it as moving when the rule starts out with the qualifier from the beginning that what you are about to do is specfically done instead of moving.

Do you know what moving is? It's "In his turn, a player may move any of his units – all of them if he wishes – up to their maximum movement distance" Pg 11
and scouting?
"any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy" Pg 76

So unless you are trying to say that one could never use a teleport shunt... because a scout move is 'exactly as in their movment phase' and I'm sure something can shunt in the movement phase, once per game.

Not at all Chris.

A unit with personal teleporters is Jump Infantry and per their movement rules in the BRB can choose a 6" movement or a 12" movement. Instead of doing either of those movements, the unit can elect to perform a teleport shunt which is <insert description of rule>.

So you agree, a unit can replace it's normal move with an action, a 'scout' can perform a normal move before the first turn, this is done exactly as in the movement phase and as such any action that could be performed in the movement phase can be performed during the scout move.

Therefore to say that one can not shunt with a scout before the first movement phase is to say that performing a shunt move in any movement phase is disallowed - which is plainly untrue - so we must be able to shunt as a scout move.

Well, if there is no limit to what is considered a normal move, I guess now is the time to start deep striking units for their scout move

Deep Striking can only be employed by a unit in Reserve, which has been stated to be Deep Striking.

Scouting can only be done by a unit which is on the table.

Let's not be absurd, please.

Let's not be absurd, please.

A little late for that. We hit absurd on page 2

omerakk wrote:Well, if there is no limit to what is considered a normal move, I guess now is the time to start deep striking units for their scout move

If you can show a rule which says says "Once per game instead of moving this unit may be placed anywhere on the board as per the deep-strike rules" and it's attached to something which is a scout then yeah - go right ahead - but it would be nice if you adheared to the topic at hand instead of firing out scenarios without concern for the rules and their interactions. As Manhannin said "Deep Striking can only be employed by a unit in Reserve, which has been stated to be Deep Striking. Scouting can only be done by a unit which is on the table. "

ChrisCP wrote:

omerakk wrote:Well, if there is no limit to what is considered a normal move, I guess now is the time to start deep striking units for their scout move

If you can show a rule which says says "Once per game instead of moving this unit may be placed anywhere on the board as per the deep-strike rules" and it's attached to something which is a scout then yeah - go right ahead - but it would be nice if you adheared to the topic at hand instead of firing out scenarios without concern for the rules and their interactions. As Manhannin said "Deep Striking can only be employed by a unit in Reserve, which has been stated to be Deep Striking. Scouting can only be done by a unit which is on the table. "

A necron lord with a veil can teleport anywhere on the field via the deepstrike rules during his movement phase, while he is on the board; not in reserve.

So I guess if he gains scouting while in a campaign or during an apoc match, its perfectly legal for him to deepstrike as a scout move

Sure. As long as he has Scout, and doesn't end that move within 12" of the enemy.

ChrisCP wrote:

If you can show a rule which says says "Once per game instead of moving this unit may...

Stop right there.

If you're given permission to move, you may only move. If you're given permission to take a movement phase, you may move or take any alternative action.
If you're given permission to only shoot, you may not run. If you're given permission to take a shooting phase, you may shoot, run, or take any alternative action.

Coteaz gets to take an out-of-sequence shooting attack. That doesn't mean he gets to run if he wants to. Because you shoot instead of running. You run instead of shooting. They are *both* shooting actions.

That's the relationship going on with the shunt/move thing. Pro-Scout-Shunt folks think that all uses of the word move and movement are interchangeable. They are not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:Sure. As long as he has Scout, and doesn't end that move within 12" of the enemy.

And I disagree; because neither Veil of Darkness nor Teleporting are normal moves. Nor would a Tervigon with Scout be able to spawn gants. Nor would a scouting Farseer be able to cast psychic powers. Nor would a scouting Trygon be able to scout-burrow.

The definition of "Anything you can do in the movement phase is normal movement" simply doesn't work.

My definition is still the bestest. =D