Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Brother Ramses wrote:
While you keep taking the above stance, Gwar pointed out several times where FAQs changed the RAW of several rules instead of erratas. Others have also pointed out the same. So while you can continue to tout how FAQs only clarify that which is already legal, that isn't always the case.

"FAQs only clarify that which is already legal" Those are GW's words not mine, they have said FaQ's are only clarifications.

On the subject of Gwar, he was not always correct, he made mistakes just like the rest of us.
as noted in this thread and the FaQ that disagreed with him (And others)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/315833.page

But seeing as they say shunting is a move, this settles this case.

Shunting is moving, and you can move in the scout move.

DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - the last line says "counts as moving"

The previous lines, 3 times, tell you it is a move. Ergo, oddly enough, it IS a move.

^+1

Not sure how to explain it any better, it actually says shunting IS a move.

And since you keep repeating the same thing, I will do the same. It is *A* move. It is not a *normal* move. Those are all found in the rulebook. Scouting does not give you permission to take ANY move, it gives you permission to take a NORMAL move. Shunting doesn't say that it is a normal move. It certainly isn't in the rulebook to be classified as a normal move. And just to be sure that no one gets it confused with a normal movement, Matt handily wrote it in as "Instead of" as in it replaces your normal movement; counting it exclusionary to whatever subset normalcy consists of.



AGAIN...using the same analogy because it still applies. Coteaz is allowed to make an out of sequence shooting attack against an enemy arriving from reserves within 12". That does not give him permission to take *any* action that happens in the shooting phase, nor to run, which happens "instead of" shooting just like shunting.

Shunting is its own unique type of move. Since it has been defined as a type of move, you're given permission to use it during the movement phase. Since it is not a normal move, you're denied permission to use it during the scouting phase.

I think Dash that in this case (and it seems to be so many people think that 40k rules = english grammar, which they dont) that everyone here is overlooking the difference between move and moving. It says specifically in Shunt that you may make a MOVE, and it says specifically in scout you may make a MOVE, MOVING is the process of moving 6' in the movement phase, making a MOVE is the process of moving any number of allowed inches in the movement phase.

Jaon wrote:I think Dash that in this case (and it seems to be so many people think that 40k rules = english grammar, which they dont) that everyone here is overlooking the difference between move and moving. It says specifically in Shunt that you may make a MOVE, and it says specifically in scout you may make a MOVE, MOVING is the process of moving 6' in the movement phase, making a MOVE is the process of moving any number of allowed inches in the movement phase.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it is a move.

The question is: Is it considered a normal move, or a special move? Since scouting only allows normal moves, that's where the debate lies.

Everyone has theories on what a normal move is, but as it currently stands, none of us have an actual written definition for what is considered normal.

Dash - you're still wrong on this.

It is a move the DK can make NORMALLY whenever it chooses to move; thus it is a normal move. Same as the normal move Turboboost, which is also provided by a special rule.

Stating it cannot be normal because it isnt in the BRB isnt a true argument, given that all the abnormal (usually forced) movements are given in the BRB.

Your analogy is also entirely 100% incorrect. Run is only allowed in the shooting phase - so it has an additional restriction that Shunt does not. Shunt is anytime you can move, you can do X instead; run is anytime you can shoot AND you are in your shooting phase you can run.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Dash - you're still wrong on this.

It is a move the DK can make NORMALLY whenever it chooses to move; thus it is a normal move. Same as the normal move Turboboost, which is also provided by a special rule.

Stating it cannot be normal because it isnt in the BRB isnt a true argument, given that all the abnormal (usually forced) movements are given in the BRB.

Your analogy is also entirely 100% incorrect. Run is only allowed in the shooting phase - so it has an additional restriction that Shunt does not. Shunt is anytime you can move, you can do X instead; run is anytime you can shoot AND you are in your shooting phase you can run.

Actually it is something only a DK with a persoanl transporter can do instead of moving. Seem to ignore that all the time and continue pointing to the physcial act of moving the model and confusing it with what the Scout move allows you to do. You and Jidmah keep saying,

"Look at my hand! I am picking up the model and MOVING it 30"! My MOVE is not ending on top of another unit or impassable terrain and is ignoring intervening units, terrain, and so on! I will not assault after this MOVE but will shoot or assault! It will count as MOVING!!"

Yet not realize that what you just did was not move, but teleport shunt. Those actions taken is not defined as a move, it is defined as a teleport shunt.

Noticing your last sentence; since you define Shunt as, "X", where does the Scout move allow you to do whatever, "X" happens to be?

There was something someone pointed out in my local store...you can only shunt DURING a game, however scout moves are made BEFORE a game starts.

On page 92 of the (big) rulebook it says you roll off etc and deploy

"Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves.

Start the game! Once deployment has finished..."

All three missions state this and as you haven't actually started the game you can't do your "once per game" special move.

I also agree with "make a teleport shunt instead of moving" means that they're not moving as such and therefore not a normal move. It does say that it "makes a move up to 30" in any direction" but should they instead deepstrike? Meaning it's unreliable and less likely to be used, saying move just means that you move the models from one place on the board to another.

Maybe they should have used "shunt" instead of using the word "move"

so while you could split hairs over their use of language (I'm sure everyone knows how terrible they are at it) I wouldn't let someone use it against me for these very reasons.

The OTHER thing of a Dreadknight having the personal teleporter is they're no longer Monstrous Creatures...the very first sentence of the personal teleporters says "Units with Personal Teleporters are Jump Infantry." Jump infantry and Monstrous Creature are both unit types, so you lose your relentless, ability to shoot two guns and ignoring armour saves (although you'll still have doomfists, daemon hammer or greatsword)

Gooda wrote:There was something someone pointed out in my local store...you can only shunt DURING a game, however scout moves are made BEFORE a game starts.

On page 92 of the (big) rulebook it says you roll off etc and deploy

"Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves.

Start the game! Once deployment has finished..."

All three missions state this and as you haven't actually started the game you can't do your "once per game" special move.

I also agree with "make a teleport shunt instead of moving" means that they're not moving as such and therefore not a normal move. It does say that it "makes a move up to 30" in any direction" but should they instead deepstrike? Meaning it's unreliable and less likely to be used, saying move just means that you move the models from one place on the board to another.

Maybe they should have used "shunt" instead of using the word "move"

so while you could split hairs over their use of language (I'm sure everyone knows how terrible they are at it) I wouldn't let someone use it against me for these very reasons.

The OTHER thing of a Dreadknight having the personal teleporter is they're no longer Monstrous Creatures...the very first sentence of the personal teleporters says "Units with Personal Teleporters are Jump Infantry." Jump infantry and Monstrous Creature are both unit types, so you lose your relentless, ability to shoot two guns and ignoring armour saves (although you'll still have doomfists, daemon hammer or greatsword)

I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that scout moves are not part of the game in a general sense, which is the only prerequisite of using the shunt move; it doesn't say "after the game starts". I won't try to dissuade you, however, as it'd only be arguing semantics. Regardless, I wouldn't get too used to denying Grey Knight players the ability to do this. In the likely event that that FAQ allows it, you're going to have to get used to it anyway. If the FAQ doesn't allow it, then you only have that much more of an advantage.

And personally I think the MC/JI thing is a bit silly. Common sense says that a Dreadknight is every bit as huge and strong after equipping that wargear-- the two categories that characterize a MC. On the same token, just because he has that wargear on doesn't mean he can all of the sudden fit into a Stormraven. I think the general consensus for that one is that, RAI, they are MCs that move like JI.

There was something someone pointed out in my local store...you can only shunt DURING a game, however scout moves are made BEFORE a game starts.

On page 92 of the (big) rulebook it says you roll off etc and deploy

Please read the BA FaQ regarding smoke launchers and scout moves. It says you're wrong as smoke launchers are once per game just like the Shunt and are allowed during the scout move...

Brother Ramses wrote:
Actually it is something only a DK with a persoanl transporter can do instead of moving. Seem to ignore that all the time and continue pointing to the physcial act of moving the model and confusing it with what the Scout move allows you to do. You and Jidmah keep saying,

"Look at my hand! I am picking up the model and MOVING it 30"! My MOVE is not ending on top of another unit or impassable terrain and is ignoring intervening units, terrain, and so on! I will not assault after this MOVE but will shoot or assault! It will count as MOVING!!"

Yet not realize that what you just did was not move, but teleport shunt. Those actions taken is not defined as a move, it is defined as a teleport shunt.

Noticing your last sentence; since you define Shunt as, "X", where does the Scout move allow you to do whatever, "X" happens to be?

As you singled out my name an ridiculed my argument, mind quote the exact and complete shunt rules?

When you do, you might notice something. If you don't, I'll dismiss your posts as trolling.

BR - sorry, youre arguing what now?

The Shunt rules state, *3* times, that you MOVE the model.

Try again.

The FAQs also make quite clear that you can do everything (except end your move within 12" of an enemy) in a Scout move which you could do with a normal movement phase move, and that said Scout move counts just the same as a movement phase move.

You can use Turbo-Boosters, you can disembark, you can pop smoke, you get your cover save if you moved Flat Out or used Turbo Boosters, you can make the enemy hit your vehicle on 6s if it moved over 6", etc. That's at least five different rules for which they've explicitly and consistently ruled this way.

I see absolutely no reason to think that Shunt is meant to interact with Scout any differently than Turbo-Boosting does.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - sorry, youre arguing what now?

The Shunt rules state, *3* times, that you MOVE the model.

Try again.

Nos, the 3x that move is mentioned in the description are describing what?

Something that is done instead of moving called a teleport shunt.

Instead of shooting, you can run.

If I run did I shoot? No, I ran.

Instead of moving, you can teleport shunt.

Did I move? No, I teleport shunted.

But like I mentioned, you and Jid keep bringing up that the model was actually "moved" and the word "move" was used in the rule. However you keep ignoring that the action of "moving" the model and the use of "move" in the rules are describing a teleport shunt, not a move.

So, troll it is then.

You're claiming that a move isnt a move. Classic.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, troll it is then.

You're claiming that a move isnt a move. Classic.

Play nice, or don't play.

Keep it polite, folks.

Easy fix, everyone just start playing orks. Spend like 300 points on grots, make circles of grots around all your units. Now GK can shunt their hearts out, I hope they like grots!

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, troll it is then.

You're claiming that a move isnt a move. Classic.

Not at all.

I am claiming that the description you want to keep championing as a move is actually called a teleport shunt.

The Teleport Shunt special rule repeatedly describes it as a move, does it not?

Is it also your contention that a Turbo-Boost is not a move?

Brother Ramses wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, troll it is then.

You're claiming that a move isnt a move. Classic.

Not at all.

I am claiming that the description you want to keep championing as a move is actually called a teleport shunt.

Actually no.

This arguement is claiming that a move isnt a move....that's what I've read now for 4 whole pages.

Scout shunting has an arguement for it, and IMHO is within the spirit of the rules when other forms of 'normal' movement are acceptable in the movement phase.

The arguement against Scout shunting is about as anal-retentive as you can get when arguing rules. I mean, come on....

"lemme look for any reason that I can find as to why someone might not be able to 'shunt' during a scout move...there...I found it. Even though it says at the end of the rules for personal teleporters 'unit counts as having moved' it still doesnt state that it's a normal movement."

Gimmie a break.

Mannahnin wrote:The Teleport Shunt special rule repeatedly describes it as a move, does it not?

Is it also your contention that a Turbo-Boost is not a move?

Do you Turbo-boost INSTEAD of moving?

Brother Ramses wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The Teleport Shunt special rule repeatedly describes it as a move, does it not?

Is it also your contention that a Turbo-Boost is not a move?

Do you Turbo-boost INSTEAD of moving?

When shunting, you replace one type of movement with another. Still perfectly normal, as opposed to Fall Back!, assault and consolidation moves, which I believe is what the rulebook considers "special" movement.

"Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. If making a teleport shunt, the unit immediately makes a move of up to 30" in any direction. Yadda yadda text be here." Doesn't say "move the model" or anything similar. In fact, it almost looks as if a teleport shunt is movement... Who would've guessed?

Almighty Walrus:

I don't think anyone is arguing that shunting is not a movement. We're arguing that it isn't a normal movement. You guys want a movement phase in order to pull of shunt.

I've posited a definition of normal movement: Anything included in the rulebook for movement under the movement section. To pre-empt the "Turbo-boost" people, turbo-boosting and flat out are included there as well, though it is separately defined on page 76.

Do you have a better definition? You'll need a better one to scout-shunt.


Scout unit in reserve deep-striking. Can you scout deep-strike? No, it isn't a normal movement.
Scout unit on the table with a teleport beacon/VoD/etc: Can they scout teleport? No. It isn't a normal movement.
Scout unit on the table with a shunt: Can they scout shunt? No. It isn't a normal movement.

Turbo-boosting isn't equitable with shunting because Turbo-boosting is normal movement. Popping smoke isn't either, because its part of a normal move - while it was a grey area, it was FAQed that way.

You don't get a scout movement phase. No scout psychic powers, no scout bubbling, no scout Tervigon spawning (if they were scouts). Any of the things that you get to do during the movement phase that are not within the realm of a normal movement...may not be done.

Now: Shunting in particular - replaces movement. Interceptors have a normal movement. 6", 12". To shunt, you replace their normal movement with a special movement. That is, you shunt instead of moving normally. The GK codex is pretty definitive on that. "Instead of moving, shunt."

Scouting doesn't say to take a movement phase. Scouting doesn't say to take a movement action. It tells you to take a normal move.

How can you try arguing that shunting is a normal move, when the codex instructs you that shunting requires you to sacrifice your normal move to do so?

I've posited a definition of normal movement: Anything included in the rulebook for movement under the movement section. To pre-empt the "Turbo-boost" people, turbo-boosting and flat out are included there as well, though it is separately defined on page 76.

Do you have a better definition? You'll need a better one to scout-shunt.

2 questions:

1) How do smoke launchers fit into that definition?
2) Where did you get that definition? What page of the rulebook told you that was what was meant by normal movement?

FlingitNow wrote:
2) Where did you get that definition? What page of the rulebook told you that was what was meant by normal movement?

Dash: My post was aimed at Brother Ramses, who still seems to be arguing that it isn't a move.

As for my definition of a normal move: A normal move IMO is any move made voluntarily with the exception of consolidate, assault, run! and fall back! moves. These are all variable (except if something like Prophet of the Waaagh! overrides it) and as such there's no "standard" distance that you may move when making such a move. Contrast shunting, flat-out and turbo-boosting, which all have defined movement ranges.

Dash, you're literally making up rules now.

I reiterate, even under your definition of "everything in the movement chapter is normal movement", Turbo-Boosting is in NO WAY any more of a normal move than Shunting is.

There is no definition for a "normal move". Years ago, possibly before you started playing, GW ruled that you couldn't Turbo Boost in a Scout move, because that's not a "normal move." As I pointed out before, they even printed this in the Dark Angels codex as well, on page 27.

They have since reversed this rationale. Seriously, read the FAQ. On page 5 one of the questions is whether bikes can turbo in a scout move, and the answer is "Yes, they now can."

Is popping smoke a normal move?
Is turbo-boosting a normal move?
Is disembarking a normal move?

These are all special actions or variant ways to move (take your pick), which do not conform to a given unit type's specified movement rate.

And GW has explicitly ruled in the FAQ, in every one of these cases, that they're allowable in a Scout move.

Mannahnin wrote:Dash, you're literally making up rules now.

I reiterate, even under your definition of "everything in the movement chapter is normal movement", Turbo-Boosting is in NO WAY any more of a normal move than Shunting is.

There is no definition for a "normal move". Years ago, possibly before you started playing, GW ruled that you couldn't Turbo Boost in a Scout move, because that's not a "normal move." As I pointed out before, they even printed this in the Dark Angels codex as well, on page 27.

They have since reversed this rationale. Seriously, read the FAQ. On page 5 one of the questions is whether bikes can turbo in a scout move, and the answer is "Yes, they now can."

Is popping smoke a normal move?
Is turbo-boosting a normal move?
Is disembarking a normal move?

These are all special actions or variant ways to move (take your pick), which do not conform to a given unit type's specified movement rate.

And GW has explicitly ruled in the FAQ, in every one of these cases, that they're allowable in a Scout move.

Actually, I can point to the Bike movement entry where Turbo-boosting is clearly included however Shunting is not under the movement entry for Jump Infantry.

And while you keep pointing out things that HAVE been FAQ to be allowed in the Scout move, do you have a FAQ that allows you to Shunt during the Scout move?

And Walrus, I am not arguing that it isn't a move. I am arguing that GW has classified what you want keep calling a move as a Teleport Shunt. The rule clearly tells you it is done instead of moving. It tells you what a Teleport Shunt consists of (which includes physically moving the model and counting as movement), but it is still a Teleport Shunt, not a move.

You are shouting the same point as Jid and Nos about the description of a teleport shunt containing what it does to make it a move when the rule clearly tells you that it is done instead of moving and that is is a teleport shunt, not a move.

Brother Ramses wrote:
Actually, I can point to the Bike movement entry where Turbo-boosting is clearly included however Shunting is not under the movement entry for Jump Infantry.

And while you keep pointing out things that HAVE been FAQ to be allowed in the Scout move, do you have a FAQ that allows you to Shunt during the Scout move?

As said by Deadshane, "lemme look for any reason that I can find as to why someone might not be able to 'shunt' during a scout move...there...I found it. Even though it says at the end of the rules for personal teleporters 'unit counts as having moved' it still doesnt state that it's a normal movement."

sourclams wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
Actually, I can point to the Bike movement entry where Turbo-boosting is clearly included however Shunting is not under the movement entry for Jump Infantry.

And while you keep pointing out things that HAVE been FAQ to be allowed in the Scout move, do you have a FAQ that allows you to Shunt during the Scout move?

As said by Deadshane, "lemme look for any reason that I can find as to why someone might not be able to 'shunt' during a scout move...there...I found it. Even though it says at the end of the rules for personal teleporters 'unit counts as having moved' it still doesnt state that it's a normal movement."

You questioning his motivations really doesn't make the point hes making any weaker. Someone could say people arguing in favor of scout shunt just want to gain as much advantage as they can get away with, that wouldn't wouldn't mean their argument is wrong just because of their motives.

@Mannahnin
Regarding Turbo-Boosting and Shunt, it seems Dash is saying that what makes them different is that Shunting has a line stating it is done instead of moving. Turbo-boosting has no comparable line. Thus, by that quality, Turbo Boosting is "more normal" than Shunting.