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I have and do read it as Dashofpepper posits, but entirely expect it to be FAQd otherwise.

omerakk wrote:If you're just wanting to play ring around the rosey, then start doing it via private messages so we don't get this thread locked, but it seems like you're less interested in the rules and more interested in cheese hunting to cheat your friends at the local shop.

A player's motivations are irrelevant when assessing the validity of his argument.

The argument has devolved into discussing the definition of the word "normal". I don't think that Shunt should be usable during a Scout move, but I haven't seen any examples where the rules for Shunt and the rules for Scout contradict each other.

At this point, then, I think that the maneuver is legal by RaW, but it is likely to get hit with errata in the FAQ making it illegal (simply because it seems weird).

Xarian wrote:

omerakk wrote:If you're just wanting to play ring around the rosey, then start doing it via private messages so we don't get this thread locked, but it seems like you're less interested in the rules and more interested in cheese hunting to cheat your friends at the local shop.

A player's motivations are irrelevant when assessing the validity of his argument.

The argument has devolved into discussing the definition of the word "normal". I don't think that Shunt should be usable during a Scout move, but I haven't seen any examples where the rules for Shunt and the rules for Scout contradict each other.

At this point, then, I think that the maneuver is legal by RaW, but it is likely to get hit with errata in the FAQ making it illegal (simply because it seems weird).

Maybe, as GK have no scouts to turbo boost so this may be legal when the faq is released. Till then, do what is done at every tournament game for this type of arguement: 4+ its legal 1-3 you cant that game.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Turbo-boosting replaces a unit's normal move in exactly the same way that Shunting replaces the unit's normal move.

Again, disagreed. Shunt is a special move that replaces movement. Turbo-boosting is not. The two rules are worded completely differently, and only one of them (shunt) makes any reference to replacing movement.

And again - being given permission to fire your weapon does not give you permission to run. Being given permission to take a shooting phase gives you permission to shoot *or* run. You are not being given a movement phase to shunt, you are being given a normal movement, which Shunting is not. By its own definition.

There is no definition of "normal", so it's not like there is a simple RAW answer here.

The bike rules do clearly define the unit's movement as being 12". And the Turbo-Boosters Special Rule gives the unit a different option to use instead.

I think when taken in context with GW having ruled that using the Turbo-Boost special rule, and using Smoke Launchers, are both legal in the Scout move, there is no good reason to say that Shunting shouldn't be. In both the cases of TB and Shunt, the movement uses a special rule in place of the unit's normal movement mode and speed.

Before GW issued their ruling on TB, I was reasonably confident that it was not a "normal move", and that it was not legal to TB while Scouting. The Dark Angels codex actually explicitly states this on page 27: "Note that no model may make a Turbo Boost move while using the Scouts Special Rule."

The updated main rulebook FAQ reversed this (see page 5). And further, they went on to say that bikes still get the cover save, and vehicles scout-moving count as moving, even though both of those rules technically say that those things are dependent on how the unit moved in its "previous movement phase". GW has consistently been ruling that the scout move works just like a movement phase move for all purposes (with the 12" restriction, of course). They've also ruled that a Scouting unit in a Scouting vehicle can also disembark like it's a movement phase.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620222a_40k_Rulebook_version_1_2.pdf

GW has clearly changed its position regarding the Scout move. Originally using special rules like Turbo Boost was illegal. Now the consistent pattern across several different rulings is that when making a Scout move, the Scouting unit gets to do whatever it would usually be able to do in the movement phase. Be that Turbo-ing, popping smoke, disembarking from a transport, or (as seems most likely and consistent with all of the above), Shunting.

Mannahnin wrote: There is no definition of "normal", so it's not like there is a simple RAW answer here.

The bike rules do clearly define the unit's movement as being 12". And the Turbo-Boosters Special Rule gives the unit a different option to use instead.

1. Normal: Since it is not defined, we should use it INCLUSIVELY, not exclusively. All examples given in the rules that say that they fit into normal movement do, everything else does not.

2. I think you're mincing words. Turbo-boosters give the unit a different option to use IN MOVEMENT to increase their speed, not INSTEAD of movement.

That's the crux of the issue. Shunting is not movement by its own definition - it replaces movement.

Except, Dash, it IS movement. It states so four times in the text.

Mannahnin wrote:
Originally using special rules like Turbo Boost was illegal. Now the consistent pattern across several different rulings is that when making a Scout move, the Scouting unit gets to do whatever it would usually be able to do in the movement phase. Be that Turbo-ing, popping smoke, disembarking from a transport, or (as seems most likely and consistent with all of the above), Shunting.

That I can buy.

It may even be that it gets FAQed to read "during" instead of "Instead of." That would clear the issue up nicely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, Dash, it IS movement. It states so four times in the text.

Yes...Shunting is a special type of movement granting a move outside the boundaries of a normal movement for the purpose of movement.

Very much like Turbo-Boosting. Which does not "increase" the model's speed, as you originally stated, but gives it a new and different speed with certain new restrictions and extra benefits.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:
Originally using special rules like Turbo Boost was illegal. Now the consistent pattern across several different rulings is that when making a Scout move, the Scouting unit gets to do whatever it would usually be able to do in the movement phase. Be that Turbo-ing, popping smoke, disembarking from a transport, or (as seems most likely and consistent with all of the above), Shunting.

That I can buy.

Yay!

Dash - as Mannahein states, TB functions in exactly the same way. It gfives you a special movement outside of your normal movement.

Yet TB is "normal" as far as Scout is concerned

It could that TB is listed under the Movement entry for unit type Bikes that makes it, "normal" while a teleport shunt is done instead of moving thus not considered, "normal".

Of course that is just what I read as RAW.

Which is, no offense, just another freely invented definition of "normal".

Surely. It is however a definition, otherwise you are left with the assumption they meant "voluntary" when they wrote "normal".

Which most seem to be ok with, admitedly.

kirsanth wrote:Surely. It is however a definition, otherwise you are left with the assumption they meant "voluntary" when they wrote "normal".

Which most seem to be ok with, admitedly.

Or you're left with the assumption that "normal" means "normal" as opposed to a consolidate, fall back! or assault move, which are special types of movement and as such not "normal".

Jidmah wrote:Which is, no offense, just another freely invented definition of "normal".

Which is why every time I put normal into my post it was surrounded by parentheses. It still doesn't erase the fact that if you are doing something instead of moving, you are doing something instead of your definition of normal.

You don't need to move normal, you need to do a normal move. Shunt is a normal move.

And that is the disconnect.

You think that by move, GW means an "action". Like "make your move scumbag" not the moving associated with the Movement phase of Warhammer 40k. So your opinion is that any "action" I can do during the movement phase, I can also do in the Scout move.

The argument against that opinion is that the rule is not talking about an "action", it is specifically telling you that instead of moving as associated with the Movement phase, you are doing entirely different instead, you are teleport shunting.

I find it interesting that those that want to keep quoting that the rule tells you that. "it counts as moving" do not realize that if the rule has to tell you that it "counts as" moving, it must not be moving in the first place. It must be something entirely different then moving for the rulebook to have to inform you that it "counts as" moving instead of just being moving.

For example, a vehicle deep striking "counts as" moving at cruising speed, despite it never moving at cruising speed.

Or the inverse in that pivots do not "count as" moving despite the model physically moving on the game board.

Brother Ramses wrote:And that is the disconnect.

You think that by move, GW means an "action". Like "make your move scumbag" not the moving associated with the Movement phase of Warhammer 40k. So your opinion is that any "action" I can do during the movement phase, I can also do in the Scout move.

The argument against that opinion is that the rule is not talking about an "action", it is specifically telling you that instead of moving as associated with the Movement phase, you are doing entirely different instead, you are teleport shunting.

I find it interesting that those that want to keep quoting that the rule tells you that. "it counts as moving" do not realize that if the rule has to tell you that it "counts as" moving, it must not be moving in the first place. It must be something entirely different then moving for the rulebook to have to inform you that it "counts as" moving instead of just being moving.

For example, a vehicle deep striking "counts as" moving at cruising speed, despite it never moving at cruising speed.

Or the inverse in that pivots do not "count as" moving despite the model physically moving on the game board.

Counts as, in all ways, acts as if the unit had actually performed that action.

so deepstriking vehicles will be hit on a 6 in CC just as if they had moved over six inches.

Shunting seems all good for a scout move, since it says its movement, and you are allowed to move during a scout move.

Brother Ramses wrote:I find it interesting that those that want to keep quoting that the rule tells you that. "it counts as moving" do not realize that if the rule has to tell you that it "counts as" moving, it must not be moving in the first place. It must be something entirely different then moving for the rulebook to have to inform you that it "counts as" moving instead of just being moving.

Many rules in 40k say that one thing "counts as" being another thing. And when they do so, this generally means that thing A counts as thing B for all purposes, unless and except where explicitly stated otherwise.

Please note also, that in the cases of turbo-boosting, disembarking, popping smoke launchers, assaulting a vehicle which Scout moved, and shooting at a fast skimmer shich moved flat out, GW has consistently ruled in all of these cases that during a Scout move you can do basically all the normal things you can do in the movement phase, and that said move counts just the same as a movement phase move for the purposes of interactions with other rules and other units interacting with said unit. There's a very consistent pattern to all these FAQ rulings.

DeathReaper wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:And that is the disconnect.

You think that by move, GW means an "action". Like "make your move scumbag" not the moving associated with the Movement phase of Warhammer 40k. So your opinion is that any "action" I can do during the movement phase, I can also do in the Scout move.

The argument against that opinion is that the rule is not talking about an "action", it is specifically telling you that instead of moving as associated with the Movement phase, you are doing entirely different instead, you are teleport shunting.

I find it interesting that those that want to keep quoting that the rule tells you that. "it counts as moving" do not realize that if the rule has to tell you that it "counts as" moving, it must not be moving in the first place. It must be something entirely different then moving for the rulebook to have to inform you that it "counts as" moving instead of just being moving.

For example, a vehicle deep striking "counts as" moving at cruising speed, despite it never moving at cruising speed.

Or the inverse in that pivots do not "count as" moving despite the model physically moving on the game board.

Counts as, in all ways, acts as if the unit had actually performed that action.

so deepstriking vehicles will be hit on a 6 in CC just as if they had moved over six inches.

Shunting seems all good for a scout move, since it says its movement, and you are allowed to move during a scout move.

Actually it is done instead of moving and just counts as moving. Too bad Scout move doesn't include actions that count as moving, just actions that are moving.

Please read the FAQ rulings relating to Scout moves.

Mannahnin wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I find it interesting that those that want to keep quoting that the rule tells you that. "it counts as moving" do not realize that if the rule has to tell you that it "counts as" moving, it must not be moving in the first place. It must be something entirely different then moving for the rulebook to have to inform you that it "counts as" moving instead of just being moving.

Many rules in 40k say that one thing "counts as" being another thing. And when they do so, this generally means that thing A counts as thing B for all purposes, unless and except where explicitly stated otherwise.

Please note also, that in the cases of turbo-boosting, disembarking, popping smoke launchers, assaulting a vehicle which Scout moved, and shooting at a fast skimmer shich moved flat out, GW has consistently ruled in all of these cases that during a Scout move you can do basically all the normal things you can do in the movement phase, and that said move counts just the same as a movement phase move for the purposes of interactions with other rules and other units interacting with said unit. There's a very consistent pattern to all these FAQ rulings.

That is understood. However limitations of rules do trump the counts as clause several times as well. For example a power that affects Jump Infantry does not affect models that only count as Jump Infantry because they are not Jump Infantry.

And you make the point in your last sentence that many people have been trying to make all along, that it was a FAQ ruling that has allowed many non-movement actions to be allowed during the Scout move which teleport shunting, as identified and not moving, will have to be ruled on as well.

The rule seems very clear to me, specifically the last sentence of it: "The unit counts as having moved."

I fully expect the FAQ to allow the use of shunting during the scout movement phase, and I recommend everyone play them as such until then because there isn't sufficient evidence to disallow it.

Abaddon wrote:The rule seems very clear to me, specifically the last sentence of it: "The unit counts as having moved."

I fully expect the FAQ to allow the use of shunting during the scout movement phase, and I recommend everyone play them as such until then because there isn't sufficient evidence to disallow it.

Except for...a rulebook, a GK codex, and an FAQ?

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:
Originally using special rules like Turbo Boost was illegal. Now the consistent pattern across several different rulings is that when making a Scout move, the Scouting unit gets to do whatever it would usually be able to do in the movement phase. Be that Turbo-ing, popping smoke, disembarking from a transport, or (as seems most likely and consistent with all of the above), Shunting.

That I can buy.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I find it interesting that those that want to keep quoting that the rule tells you that. "it counts as moving" do not realize that if the rule has to tell you that it "counts as" moving, it must not be moving in the first place. It must be something entirely different then moving for the rulebook to have to inform you that it "counts as" moving instead of just being moving.

...There's a very consistent pattern to all these FAQ rulings.

...that it was a FAQ ruling that has allowed many non-movement actions...

Remember FaQ's only clarify how the rule works, and was supposed to work all along, so FaQ's do not allow anything they are just clarifications on how the rule actually works.

That said, Mann is correct "There's a very consistent pattern to all these FAQ rulings." and the DK Shunt is as legal as turbo-boosting, or popping smoke. (and will be clarified as such if there is an FaQ about it)

DeathReaper wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I find it interesting that those that want to keep quoting that the rule tells you that. "it counts as moving" do not realize that if the rule has to tell you that it "counts as" moving, it must not be moving in the first place. It must be something entirely different then moving for the rulebook to have to inform you that it "counts as" moving instead of just being moving.

...There's a very consistent pattern to all these FAQ rulings.

...that it was a FAQ ruling that has allowed many non-movement actions...

Remember FaQ's only clarify how the rule works, and was supposed to work all along, so FaQ's do not allow anything they are just clarifications on how the rule actually works.

That said, Mann is correct "There's a very consistent pattern to all these FAQ rulings." and the DK Shunt is as legal as turbo-boosting, or popping smoke. (and will be clarified as such if there is an FaQ about it)

While you keep taking the above stance, Gwar pointed out several times where FAQs changed the RAW of several rules instead of erratas. Others have also pointed out the same. So while you can continue to tout how FAQs only clarify that which is already legal, that isn't always the case.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Abaddon wrote:The rule seems very clear to me, specifically the last sentence of it: "The unit counts as having moved."

I fully expect the FAQ to allow the use of shunting during the scout movement phase, and I recommend everyone play them as such until then because there isn't sufficient evidence to disallow it.

Except for...a rulebook, a GK codex, and an FAQ?

The entries in the rulebook and FAQ(s) are too vague and/or contextually specific to other things to be directly applicable to shunting during a scout move, and the GK codex supports scout shunting if anything.

I never said that there was no evidence, however. Only that there isn't enough directly applicable evidence to disallow it. I'm willing to wager that the FAQ will agree with me, whenever it comes.

BR - the last line says "counts as moving"

The previous lines, 3 times, tell you it is a move. Ergo, oddly enough, it IS a move.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - the last line says "counts as moving"

The previous lines, 3 times, tell you it is a move. Ergo, oddly enough, it IS a move.

^+1

Not sure how to explain it any better, it actually says shunting IS a move.

For example a power that affects Jump Infantry does not affect models that only count as Jump Infantry because they are not Jump Infantry.

This is wrong. Anything counting as jump infantry is hit by powers that affect jump infantry. You are thinking of models that "move like jump infantry".