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Im not sure i understand why the interceptors can not shunt during there scout move, could you break it down for me and or direct me to the threads?

BRB
Scouts are used to reconnoitre ahead and are always in
the vanguard of the army. To represent this, after both
sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before
the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may
make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their
Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts
must remain more than 12" away from any enemy.
If both sides have scouts, the players roll-off and the
winner decides who goes first, and then alternate
moving these units.
If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a dedicated
transport vehicle, it confers the scout ability to the
transport too.
This rule also confers a special outflank move to units
of scouts that are kept in reserve (see page 94

GK entry:

may shunt INSTEAD of "moving, next sentence if shunting unit makes a MOVE etc.

CAN NOT ASSAULT but can fire or run counts as having MOVED.

I am missing something obviously ... but RAW on both seem like a shunt is perfectly legal idk help?

Hate to say it, but this has already been discussed to death with several reasonable arguments on both sides.

For what it's worth, it seems that people are slightly more in favor of the 'no' camp, but it's all conjecture until we get a FAQ.

DoW

yeah didnt realize it had been brought up so much ... again

just curious guess as to where these threads are because as it stands Im finding it hard to say that they can't shunt on a scout move idk

guess I wou;d like to see the otherside

Thank you very much bro!

There are no real arguments against scout shunting. Attempting to claim it isnt a "normal" move simply ignores TB and smoke launchers as what constitutes "normal

One person attempted to claim it wasnt a move. Sadly the 3 mentions of move and the last "counts as move" are against them there.

DogOfWar wrote:Hate to say it, but this has already been discussed to death with several reasonable arguments on both sides.

For what it's worth, it seems that people are slightly more in favor of the 'no' camp, but it's all conjecture until we get a FAQ.

DoW

People might be, but rules are not. Nothing truely prevents shunting during a sout move, as it's analogue to Turboboosting and using smoke launchers.

OP - if you could put more helpful titles (e.g.: scout shunting with a dreadknight?) you are likely to get more people clicking through, and its more helpful when people are searching later on.

Jidmah wrote:
People might be, but rules are not. Nothing truely prevents shunting during a sout move, as it's analogue to Turboboosting and using smoke launchers.

Turboboosting and flat out are both normal movements. Vehicles have three speeds of normal movement: Combat, cruising, and flat out. Jetbikes have a normal movement range of 1-24" except for DE jetbikes, which have a normal movement of up to 36".

Since smoke launchers may be used during a normal movement, you can smoke during a scout movement.

The downfall of scout shunting is that the shunt has no categorical inclusion into normal movement, is its own special movement type, and explicitly tells you that it is *not* a normal movement - and that to use it, you must forsake your moving turn to do so. Scouting allows you to make a normal move, not take a movement phase.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Jidmah wrote:
People might be, but rules are not. Nothing truely prevents shunting during a sout move, as it's analogue to Turboboosting and using smoke launchers.

Turboboosting and flat out are both normal movements. Vehicles have three speeds of normal movement: Combat, cruising, and flat out. Jetbikes have a normal movement range of 1-24" except for DE jetbikes, which have a normal movement of up to 36".

Since smoke launchers may be used during a normal movement, you can smoke during a scout movement.

The downfall of scout shunting is that the shunt has no categorical inclusion into normal movement, is its own special movement type, and explicitly tells you that it is *not* a normal movement - and that to use it, you must forsake your moving turn to do so. Scouting allows you to make a normal move, not take a movement phase.

Last time I looked "Turbo boosters" was an USR inherent to bikes and jetbikes. In the same way, shunting is an USR inherent to units with Teleporter Packs. Arguing that one special rule is somehow "normal" when another is not feels shoddy at best to me.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Jidmah wrote:
People might be, but rules are not. Nothing truely prevents shunting during a sout move, as it's analogue to Turboboosting and using smoke launchers.

Turboboosting and flat out are both normal movements. Vehicles have three speeds of normal movement: Combat, cruising, and flat out. Jetbikes have a normal movement range of 1-24" except for DE jetbikes, which have a normal movement of up to 36".

Since smoke launchers may be used during a normal movement, you can smoke during a scout movement.

The downfall of scout shunting is that the shunt has no categorical inclusion into normal movement, is its own special movement type, and explicitly tells you that it is *not* a normal movement - and that to use it, you must forsake your moving turn to do so. Scouting allows you to make a normal move, not take a movement phase.

Last time I looked "Turbo boosters" was an USR inherent to bikes and jetbikes. In the same way, shunting is an USR inherent to units with Teleporter Packs. Arguing that one special rule is somehow "normal" when another is not feels shoddy at best to me.

Normal movement is any move you could use during you movement phase. The defenition is right there in the scout rule, everything else is personal opinion. There has been a like 10-page-long thread boiling down to everyone making up definition for "normal movement" while ignoring the only actuall definition in the rulebook. Can you shunt during your movement phase? Yes, so you can shunt during your scout move.

Shunting isnt a USR, its just a SR.

Can someone explain what an abnormal move is?

Examples for "abnormal" moves are for example "Fall back!"-moves, "Hit and Run", assault, pile-in, consolidate or moving out of the way of a tank shock. Basically anything other than what you would do when moving your model during your movement phase is not a normal move.

Jidmah wrote:Examples for "abnormal" moves are for example "Fall back!"-moves, "Hit and Run", assault, pile-in, consolidate or moving out of the way of a tank shock. Basically anything other than what you would do when moving your model during your movement phase is not a normal move.

^ +1

I view normal moves to be any move the model can normally perform in their movement phase. (I.E. any move you voluntarily make)

Anything else, as listed above, is not a normal move.

I'm fine with being unable to shunt during scouting. They could logically still get a 42" move if you get first turn. Sure, you can't assault but you could incinerate the crap out of something.

In that same vein, since teleporting isn't a normal move I'd say that I can teleport into dangerous terrain with no test. Not sure if that has been said before.

I don't give a lot of credence to "Other armies can do things in their scout move, so we should be able to as well" as an argument.

No, the argument is that "normal" move semes to be exactly that: any move you can normally choose to make you are allowed to choose to make during Scout moves.

Your counter argument is?

Any move that you can normally choose to make. Agreed.

Shunting doesn't fit that category. You do it instead of making any move that you would normally choose to make.

That's why the Codex says "Instead of." If the codex says, "During the movement phase you may make a once per game...." That would be entirely different.

Dash, I have to disagree on the basis of Turbo Boosters. Which are not a bike or jetbike's normal movement speed, but grant a faster speed in the USR section of the rulebook.

If Turbo-boosters are allowed when Scouting (which the FAQ has clarified that they are), then Shunting should work fine too.

Mannahnin wrote:Dash, I have to disagree on the basis of Turbo Boosters. Which are not a bike or jetbike's normal movement speed, but grant a faster speed in the USR section of the rulebook.

If Turbo-boosters are allowed when Scouting (which the FAQ has clarified that they are), then Shunting should work fine too.

Turbo-boosting is an increase in normal movement speed, allowed by a USR.

Shunting is neither a USR, nor is it an increase in normal movement speed. It replaces movement entirely....as the codex says.

Turbo Boosters is a Universal Special Rule, which replaces the unit's normal movement speed.
Shunt is a Special Rule, which replaces the unit's normal movement speed.

You might want to review pages 53 and 76 again before continuing to argue this point.

The only difference between "Universal Special Rules" and "Special Rules" is what book they are printed in. Neither one is more normal than the other.

Dash - disagree, heavily

You can choose to Shunt, same as you can choose to Turboboost

One is a SR, the other is a USR

If a Universal SPECIAL rule is considered normal, a Special rule would also be considered normal

Sadly I have to disagree with you here Dash.


The Scout USR lets you make a pre-game movement exactly as if the unit is taking a normal movement phase, ust as long as you remain 12" away from enemies.

Shunting while not a "normal" movement, is a special move that a Dreadknight may take in its normal movement phase.

So IMO shunting is allowed based on how somebody can choose to shunt in their movement phase, and Scout specifies the unit moves as if in a normal movement phase.

Maybe GW should abstain from using the word "normal" since the same argument comes up with Gets Hot! and it's wording of "normal saves," which leads to lots of debate about what's a normal save in a game with three types of saves.

I really don't see how you can argue this point; it's not legal, period.

Scout Rule:
"...any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement Phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy"

Personal Teleporter Rule:
"Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt INSTEAD of moving"

Movement, flat out, turboboosting... all of these forms of movement use the same movement rules, just different distances, and can be done EVERY turn.
Shunting doesn't follow normal movement rules and can only be done once per game.

What is so hard to understand about "normal" moving vs "non-normal or special" moving?

Turbo-boosting is a special form of movement that certain units can do instead of their "normal" move.

How often a unit can use a given ability is pretty irrelevant in this case. If I fire a combi-weapon, it's still my normal shooting, even though I can only do it once.

omerakk wrote:I really don't see how you can argue this point; it's not legal, period.

Incorrect

omerakk wrote:
Scout Rule:
"...any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement Phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy"

Personal Teleporter Rule:
"Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt INSTEAD of moving"

I like that you stop quoting there, and avoid the three mentions of "move" that follow that sentence, and the final "counts as moving" at the end.

Selective quoting FTL there.

omerakk wrote:Movement, flat out, turboboosting... all of these forms of movement use the same movement rules, just different distances, and can be done EVERY turn.

Turboboosting is INSTEAD of moving normally - and is granted by a Universal Special Rule. But It's still considered "normal" to TB in a Scout move.
Shunting is instead of moving normall, and is granted by a Special Rule. BUt it would still be considered "normal" by any definition which allows TB

The fact it can be used only once per game does not make it "abnormal" by any means. BA FAQ shows you that.

omerakk wrote:Shunting doesn't follow normal movement rules and can only be done once per game.

Except it does follow normal movement rules. For example you still cannot come within 1" of an enemy unit. So, guess youre wrong there, again.

omerakk wrote:What is so hard to understand about "normal" moving vs "non-normal or special" moving?

Um, guess you didnt read what DOES count as abnormal movement? Fall back, pile in, Assault moves are all Abnormal moves.

Incorrect

No, afraid not.

I like that you stop quoting there, and avoid the three mentions of "move" that follow that sentence, and the final "counts as moving" at the end.

Selective quoting FTL there.

And apparently, you can't tell the difference between contexts in that paragraph or you would understand why there was no need to include them.

Failure to master 5th Grade English FTL there.

Turboboosting is INSTEAD of moving normally - and is granted by a Universal Special Rule. But It's still considered "normal" to TB in a Scout move.
Shunting is instead of moving normall, and is granted by a Special Rule. BUt it would still be considered "normal" by any definition which allows TB

Nowhere in the Turbo Boosting rule does it say "instead of". You are still bound by the rules of movement, whereas shunting is not. It is more similar to deepstriking than it is to normal movement.

The fact it can be used only once per game does not make it "abnormal" by any means. BA FAQ shows you that.

Wrong codex buddy, this is GK. If they shared the exact same piece of wargear, then you would have an argument.

Except it does follow normal movement rules. For example you still cannot come within 1" of an enemy unit. So, guess youre wrong there, again.

Oh really? So shunting is blocked by terrain and intervening models like normal movement? Oh wait, it's not.

Um, guess you didnt read what DOES count as abnormal movement? Fall back, pile in, Assault moves are all Abnormal moves.

You left shunting off that list.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

bushido wrote:
How often a unit can use a given ability is pretty irrelevant in this case. If I fire a combi-weapon, it's still my normal shooting, even though I can only do it once.

Bad example.

The combi weapon is not, in any way, changing the way your unit can shoot. Normal.

Shunting completely changes the way a unit can move. Not normal.

omerakk wrote:And apparently, you can't tell the difference between contexts in that paragraph or you would understand why there was no need to include them.

Failure to master 5th Grade English FTL there.

Error on your part, again. Oh, btw - notice the flag. We dont have "grades" in the UK.

PLease explain why "move" is not a "move" then. Hand waving not withstanding.

omerakk wrote:Nowhere in the Turbo Boosting rule does it say "instead of". You are still bound by the rules of movement, whereas shunting is not. It is more similar to deepstriking than it is to normal movement.

Yet deepstriking IS movement. WRong, again.

omerakk wrote:Wrong codex buddy, this is GK. If they shared the exact same piece of wargear, then you would have an argument.

Wrong argument, "buddy". Explaining the straightforward concept that "once per game" is not a sufficient determiner to decide something is abnormal, and using adequate precedence from other codexes to do so.

omerakk wrote:Oh really? So shunting is blocked by terrain and intervening models like normal movement? Oh wait, it's not.

[

Are you claiming Jump Infantry and Jet Bikes do not have normal movement now? It's an impressive claim. Or did you miss the consequences of your argument?

omerakk wrote:

Um, guess you didnt read what DOES count as abnormal movement? Fall back, pile in, Assault moves are all Abnormal moves.

You left shunting off that list.

Why would I include normal movement on a list of abnormal movements?

I like how you dont address the USR vs SR argument at all.

Oh really? So shunting is blocked by terrain and intervening models like normal movement? Oh wait, it's not.

So.... jump infantry movement is not normal movement anymore; Crap there goes any option of any movement by granting interceptors Scouts.

Also no more Scouting my Valkyrie as Skimmers ignore terrain and intervening models.

Damn my facetious comment got ninja'd!

If you're just wanting to play ring around the rosey, then start doing it via private messages so we don't get this thread locked, but it seems like you're less interested in the rules and more interested in cheese hunting to cheat your friends at the local shop.