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Dashofpepper wrote:

Sarigar wrote:
This appears you both were not on the same page regarding the pivot and whether it garners extra movement or not as well as having questionable modelling. This was my point about losing sportsmanship points; accepting the least advantageous interpretation.

If my opponent is also moving and pivoting for the same extra movement, then I presume it isn't affecting my sportsmanship. Unless it *was* malicious.

I'm just going off of what both parties claim. I can't tell from the report he did the same movement/pivot. I'll concede that chipmunking has occurred in various tourneys, but to have 3 out of 5 games with low scores appears to be more than chipmunking and I'm trying to provide some insight regarding receiving multiple low scores. He apparently told you he was giving you a low score. If you felt it was simply to be malicious, you could have brought it up with the TO. But, I can see it's going to be everyone else's fault and obviously nothing to do with you, so be it.

Sarigar, that's not what I'm saying. =p

I was just telling you that pivoting doesn't make sense for a low sportsmanship score here.

There is a lot to respond to here but instead of writing a wall of text like dash (which I honestly did not read all of) I will touch on some of the direct questions.

@Wolf 11

Q1) Was the player's army good or bad to play against?
Q2) Was the player good or bad to play against?

A1) The list was Min Maxxed with 16 Splinter cannons on vehicles and 19 or so blasters in those vehicles coupled with the Longer Venoms to gain extra movment... yeah, bad army to play against.

A2) It has been a few days now since the game. IIRC when we were just talking durring the game he was friendly and polite but when we were rolling dice he made every close movement or cover save an issue (which was very frustrtating when he also blocked the path to get to his side of the table with his army tray).

At the time if I had been given these two choices I might have said okay to this one, however since reading all the negative things he's said about me I am certainly glad to have dinged him. Dash is not the type of player I would ever enjoy playing against.

@calypso2ts
" also think it is ridiculous to take back moves that happened in the previous phase."

Agreed, in this case I declared 'shooting phase' and the first thing I wanted to shoot was the passangers inside the storm. When he reminded me I couldn't I asked to disembark since I hadn't acturally done any shooting yet. He said no and I said okay. I don't even know why he mentioned it in his report besides to make me out to be a bad player...?

canthatenuff wrote:
I'll refrain from using bad words but Kingsley is a little girl. It is pretty hard for me to even understand the logic of giving DoP a bad score, especially if what Dash says is true. If Kingsley wasn't having fun he should have conceded.

There are two sides to this discussion and if you want to blindly except everything one person says as truth and disreguard the other side's point of view then you are certainly welcome to do so with all the internet rage at your disposal. I would just like to add that the next two players he faced also gave him bad sports scores so it wasn't just me who didn't like him.

The Kingsley Guy already stated his main reason for his negative score. If he play my mechvets and get tabled I doubt ill get a positive score from him either, I will gladly return the favor and give him a big fat zero for sportsmanship. He has been blackballed.

SonsofVulkan wrote:The Kingsley Guy already stated his main reason for his negative score. If he play my mechvets and get tabled I doubt ill get a positive score from him either, I will gladly return the favor and give him a big fat zero for sportsmanship. He has been blackballed.

Ever hear the phrase 'Two wrongs don't make a right?'.

Retaliating against someone's perceived potential action based on an internet discussion is probably not the best course.

Just saying.

SonsofVulkan wrote:The Kingsley Guy already stated his main reason for his negative score. If he play my mechvets and get tabled I doubt ill get a positive score from him either, I will gladly return the favor and give him a big fat zero for sportsmanship. He has been blackballed.

Mech guard are one of my armies but I don't play them anymore because everytime I took them to a tournament (win or lose) I knew my opponenet wasn't having any fun. REally took the taste of victory out of my mounth. Dash clearly doesn't care about whether or not his opponenet enjoys the game (if anything he would rather they didn't because that would mean he was winning).

I think some people have the wrong expectation of games in tournaments. When I went to my first tournament back in 3rd ed, I brought a crap marine list filled with units I thought were cool, and got my ass handed to me. People were friendly about it, but still.

Did I throw my bottle out the pram? Of course not. I came back for the next one with the most vicious list I could come up with (5 units of terminators with 2 Assault cannons each + Lysander, a Librarian and some scouts to fill min requirements. Remember, this was the era of broken rending) and ended up coming 5th overall (annihilated by pre-nerf mass starcannon eldar army in the last round) and got a best painted army award to boot.

In a tournament, I expect a person to be two things:

1. Friendly off the table.
2. A vicious bastard on the table.

Purposefully handicapping yourself isn't sporting. Making jokes about it and being polite is. I've had my fair share of games where the opponent has walked all over me, and some games where I've cleaned them off the board. Most important thing in both situations for both players is to remain in high spirits and go with it. Yes, you've just been massacred. Don't sulk, it's just a game. Yes you're murdering me, don't gloat.

Also, rule-lawyering isn't unsporting unless you're a git about it. Have a problem with what I'm doing? Lets talk about it. Is the ruling ambiguous? Lets consult neighbouring tables for insight and finally a TO if that doesn't help. Whatever the TO says, you go with, no matter how badly it screws you. If you can't adequately argue a contentious ruling with page references and reasoning, you don't deserve to get to use it. 'But that's how I've always played it' isn't good enough, so consider that you just might actually be wrong. 40k is a complex game, you're bound to be wrong about some things.

SonsofVulkan wrote:The Kingsley Guy already stated his main reason for his negative score. If he play my mechvets and get tabled I doubt ill get a positive score from him either, I will gladly return the favor and give him a big fat zero for sportsmanship. He has been blackballed.

Mech guard are one of my armies but I don't play them anymore because everytime I took them to a tournament (win or lose) I knew my opponenet wasn't having any fun. REally took the taste of victory out of my mounth. Dash clearly doesn't care about whether or not his opponenet enjoys the game (if anything he would rather they didn't because that would mean he was winning).

Besides, him having 3/5 bad games only ment he got Best General instead of Best Overal. Which is fitting I think.

daKing wrote:

SonsofVulkan wrote:The Kingsley Guy already stated his main reason for his negative score. If he play my mechvets and get tabled I doubt ill get a positive score from him either, I will gladly return the favor and give him a big fat zero for sportsmanship. He has been blackballed.

Mech guard are one of my armies but I don't play them anymore because everytime I took them to a tournament (win or lose) I knew my opponenet wasn't having any fun. REally took the taste of victory out of my mounth. Dash clearly doesn't care about whether or not his opponenet enjoys the game (if anything he would rather they didn't because that would mean he was winning).

That's where you and I don't see eye to eye. Plenty of people can lose a game without being a bad sport about it. The games I lose are the ones I value the most - because they spur me on to think about why I lost, what I could have changed - and they make people think about new tactics.

Don't presume that because you can't lose without having a bad game that this applies to other people. If I didn't care about your attitude, I wouldn't have tried so hard to break through your sullen/angry front.

Dash.. when you use shifty tactics like the modeling and the pivoting you are going to inspire harsh feelings.

Sad thing is that you are probably good enough to win without doing that crap but seem to prefer to continue to tarnish your rep.

This is nothing I haven't said to you face to face but when are you gonna get it, bro?

daKing wrote:
There are two sides to this discussion and if you want to blindly except everything one person says as truth and disreguard the other side's point of view then you are certainly welcome to do so with all the internet rage at your disposal. I would just like to add that the next two players he faced also gave him bad sports scores so it wasn't just me who didn't like him.

Of course you also ignore the first two players who gave him good sports scores. SO maybe it wasnt him that had the problem.

carmachu wrote:

daKing wrote:
There are two sides to this discussion and if you want to blindly except everything one person says as truth and disreguard the other side's point of view then you are certainly welcome to do so with all the internet rage at your disposal. I would just like to add that the next two players he faced also gave him bad sports scores so it wasn't just me who didn't like him.

Of course you also ignore the first two players who gave him good sports scores. SO maybe it wasnt him that had the problem.

Those bad game votes will become quite explained in my next two battle reports. It isn't quite as cut and dry as all that. I don't put much stock in a bad game vote from the buddy of the guy who just bad gamed me who runs around the room screaming that I cheated him (despite him being ruled against), tells anyone who will listen that I cheated him, hostile spectates a game he's not in to remind everyone that I'm a cheater, and feels the need to catcall and boo during the award ceremony.

My biggest mistake was *NOT* docking him with a bad game vote.

daKing wrote:
Besides, him having 3/5 bad games only ment he got Best General instead of Best Overal. Which is fitting I think.

Unless, of coruse, folks decided they didnt want him to have overall and tanked him the rest of the way on purpose for that result.

I personaly would have been very irritated at being so badly beaten but, if dash was as polite as he said and bought the guy a beer after, that would have been enough for me to say that he was a good guy overall. Like it has been said People cant be expected to take weaker armies to tournaments. It kind of defeats the idea of trying to win. Im going dash +1.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Those bad game votes will become quite explained in my next two battle reports. It isn't quite as cut and dry as all that. I don't put much stock in a bad game vote from the buddy of the guy who just bad gamed me who runs around the room screaming that I cheated him (despite him being ruled against), tells anyone who will listen that I cheated him, hostile spectates a game he's not in to remind everyone that I'm a cheater, and feels the need to catcall and boo during the award ceremony.

My biggest mistake was *NOT* docking him with a bad game vote.

Wow thats pretty bad. Before this post I was thinking this was sounding like a couple torunments of old I attended years ago. The first one I got second higest sports scores. The next, club vs club torunment, I got zero'ed sports with the highest battle scores. Same army, same style, same way of dealing with the opponents. SOme times it wont matter what you do.

Calm down. Take a deep breath.

Kudos to Dash for tactically using his optimized list to the max and pummeling his opponent.

Applaud daKing for using a non-optimized list so well.

As far as tournament play and sportsmanship. I hate to tell you but when you score a 20 out of 20 and pummel your opponent you do run the risk of - having embarassed your opponent- making him very critical of each and every move, inflection, look or action that you take.

It is always the risk of a best-general style army that is going to go 5 an 0 in a tourney that you are going to get "screwed" on the sportsmanship score.

As a general rule, I find that I too feel guilty when playing my DE, so far in 6 games it is 5 games won versus 1 loss.
The 5 wins were crushing defeats basically tabling my opponent by turn 3. Now put that in a competitive tourney setting and voila! you are going to get dinged on sportsmanship either for optimized list, being hopeless to play against or some intended or unintended slight caused by your stance, your response or even your general "happy"attitude. My one loss? Vs daemon with a heavy slaanesh theme - invulnerable saves and speed <sigh>

blood angel wrote:Dash.. when you use shifty tactics like the modeling and the pivoting you are going to inspire harsh feelings.

Sad thing is that you are probably good enough to win without doing that crap but seem to prefer to continue to tarnish your rep.

This is nothing I haven't said to you face to face but when are you gonna get it, bro?

To be fair to Dash, there is no way of him having the official Venom model yet, so people can't complain that he uses a "count's as". If he continued using the same models a few months after the Venom kit is on sale, then complaints about using an inappropriately sized model might be reasonable, but at the moment there isn't an official replacement.

The whole pivot thing is perfectly legal, if people don't like it, it's not really his fault. If you didn't like the fact that beast can assault 12", it doesn't change the fact that it's allowed by the rules...this is exactly the same with pivoting a vehicle before or after you measure to move it, the rules say you can do it, so you can do it.

Dashofpepper wrote:my army is unfun to play against because he basically spent the game making saves and dying.

A competitive list at a GT? Dash, how could you?!

Seriously, though, that list is pretty terrible. Not sure how you guys were tied on BP at game 3....

I mean, vanilla marines have good lists, but this isn't one of them. By a long shot.

Dashofpepper wrote:

carmachu wrote:

daKing wrote:
There are two sides to this discussion and if you want to blindly except everything one person says as truth and disreguard the other side's point of view then you are certainly welcome to do so with all the internet rage at your disposal. I would just like to add that the next two players he faced also gave him bad sports scores so it wasn't just me who didn't like him.

Of course you also ignore the first two players who gave him good sports scores. SO maybe it wasnt him that had the problem.

Those bad game votes will become quite explained in my next two battle reports. It isn't quite as cut and dry as all that. I don't put much stock in a bad game vote from the buddy of the guy who just bad gamed me who runs around the room screaming that I cheated him (despite him being ruled against), tells anyone who will listen that I cheated him, hostile spectates a game he's not in to remind everyone that I'm a cheater, and feels the need to catcall and boo during the award ceremony.

My biggest mistake was *NOT* docking him with a bad game vote.

No spoilers!!!

Great reports as usual Dash, I'm looking forward to the rest!

I find it quite hilarious when people go into a strop because they've lost. Especially when the do it via inter-web nerd rage.

People who fall into this catagory, instead of whining about the other person cheating or having a power-list please remember:

1. This is a game. You're in it to win it. It's all well and good being nice to someone and courteous when pointing out something wrong, however, you can't expect a player to go easy on you in a competitive enviroment.

2. Instead of being furious as to why you lost, sit and think to yourself "What could I have done better?" this game has a learning curve which can hit some people pretty hard.

MA.

daKing wrote:Hi I was the subject of this battle report. Please take what Dash says about me with a huge grain of salt. He remembers with great detail all the times I "messed up" or "cheated" but fails to mention all his Raiders moving 15" onto the board first turn, him trying to tell me Beasts have grenades, trying to use some speacial weapon on his Witch Serg when he didn't even take a Serg and as far as the disagreement about the hill... he was trying to tell me it was Impassible (WTF?) oh except for Skimmers and Jump Infantry, yeah that one better not have turned into an argument.

I'll also note that I too was going for a friendly game so although there were no arguments, it was because I let a lot the questionable things he did go as well. His next two Battle Reports will be full of long drawn out arguments, so reader please do not think that he was the model of player perfection that he paints himself to be.

As far as the Chipmunking his Sportsmanship score, this is not the place for a flame war about how one person should not give a bad game for whatever reason. I'll simply say this, at the end of the game I thought to myself, 'his army was MinMaxed to the extreme, he used advantagus modeling to gain extra inches with his movement, and he told me my army wasn't good enough to play him. hmmm this guy was completely uninteresting or fun to play against nor would I ever seek out a game with him again. Bad game vote.'

You'd be one of the first on this board to say anything like that about Dash so I'm not inclined to believe you on that regard. Nearly everybody else that plays him, including other strong online personalities tends to be won over by the end of the game.

And its not like dash had a history of bad sportsmanship ratings. Kingsley your rating/reasonings(illogical it seems) had nothing to do with the next 2 guys Dash played. His game 4 opponent was friends with the final opponent, dash already got blackballed and had a target on his back and them sharing strats to beat dash. And to be honest, I'd probably do the samething, its just the nature of the beast.

And I dont like those raider-venoms either, legal as they were but it really can leave a bad taste with your opponent. Hopefully dash use his necrons instead until the actual venoms are released.

Gorechild wrote:
To be fair to Dash, there is no way of him having the official Venom model yet, so people can't complain that he uses a "count's as". If he continued using the same models a few months after the Venom kit is on sale, then complaints about using an inappropriately sized model might be reasonable, but at the moment there isn't an official replacement.

While I wouldnt dock his sports score yet for having raiders as venoms(6 months after the release with the same models, yes), yes we can complain. Its not like he did a tone of work on them. From what I see, he ripped off the point stuff ion the back. Thats it. Thats not quite good enough.

And while there isnt an offical one, much like other folks that have to make do, there could have been more effort or if not, just play raiders fora while longer.

Again, wouldnt dock him for it yet, but no matter what claims of disadvanatage they might have, there will be clear advantages.

SonsofVulkan wrote:And its not like dash had a history of bad sportsmanship ratings. Kingsley your rating/reasonings(illogical it seems) had nothing to do with the next 2 guys Dash played. His game 4 opponent was friends with dash's final opponent, dash already got blackballed and had a target on his back and them sharing strats to beat dash. And to be honest, I'd probably do the samething, its just the nature of the beast.

And I dont like those raider-venoms either, hopefully dash use his necrons instead until the actual venoms are released.

Not quite - My game 4 opponent was actually buddies with Kingsley here, my game #3 opponent. Kingsley briefed my fourth round opponent on how I play, what to do, what to target, etc - should have been no surprises there.

Gorechild wrote:

blood angel wrote:Dash.. when you use shifty tactics like the modeling and the pivoting you are going to inspire harsh feelings.

Sad thing is that you are probably good enough to win without doing that crap but seem to prefer to continue to tarnish your rep.

This is nothing I haven't said to you face to face but when are you gonna get it, bro?

To be fair to Dash, there is no way of him having the official Venom model yet, so people can't complain that he uses a "count's as". If he continued using the same models a few months after the Venom kit is on sale, then complaints about using an inappropriately sized model might be reasonable, but at the moment there isn't an official replacement.

The whole pivot thing is perfectly legal, if people don't like it, it's not really his fault. If you didn't like the fact that beast can assault 12", it doesn't change the fact that it's allowed by the rules...this is exactly the same with pivoting a vehicle before or after you measure to move it, the rules say you can do it, so you can do it.

Your 'head in the sand mentality' is fine for one off games but it is NOT going to win a major tournament on a regular basis.

What you describe as 'perfectly legal' is a huge grey area that a lot of people do NOT consider perfectly legal.

As far as the 'counts as' argument goes there is a commonly accepted size for conversions out there and a full size raider is not one of them. Gaining extra inches for assault armies is HUGE HUGE HUGE and if it appears that someone is going out of there way to abuse 'counts as rules' or taking what many consider as a liberal interpretation of how movement works then you, as a player, have to expect resentment.

On a side note: I know with the old codex for DE one of my greatest fears was mass heavy bolter lists (or I presume eldar warwalker/vyper lists with S6 ROF killiness)
Thankfully the meta of the game has changed and now the single shot missile launcher is king. I do wonder how a DE army would fare against 18+ heavy bolters pouring out 50+ S5 shots every turn.

carmachu wrote:

daKing wrote:
There are two sides to this discussion and if you want to blindly except everything one person says as truth and disreguard the other side's point of view then you are certainly welcome to do so with all the internet rage at your disposal. I would just like to add that the next two players he faced also gave him bad sports scores so it wasn't just me who didn't like him.

Of course you also ignore the first two players who gave him good sports scores. SO maybe it wasnt him that had the problem.

Hey first time poster. I've gone to the Alamo Fantasy tournament every year they've had it, and last years first 40k one. I've known the TO's for many many years. The way you score sportsmanship in their tournaments is not a good game vote or a bad game vote, you're given the option to give a bad game vote after the game and at the end of the tournament you then give out your best game vote. So just because he didn't get a bad game vote in the first 2 games doesn't mean he was given good sports scores.

Alamo IndyGT wrote:
After each game the players will have one question on the score sheet which asks, "Did your opponent's behavior and/or army selection honestly make this a bad game for you?" If someone receives a yes then they will have to give back some of those points given on credit.

At the end of the tournament everyone shall vote for their best opponent. The question will read, "I certify that ______ provided me with the best game of the weekend. His attitude and army selection were outstanding." As with bad game votes, the value of each best game vote goes up dramatically the more of them you get:

Read the Batrep. Payed close attention to the lists prior to the Batrep and thought to myself the DE should table the marine list. Really was no reason to read the Batrep. This match was won during the list writing process.

SonsofVulkan wrote:And its not like dash had a history of bad sportsmanship ratings. Kingsley your rating/reasonings(illogical it seems) had nothing to do with the next 2 guys Dash played. His game 4 opponent was friends with dash's final opponent, dash already got blackballed and had a target on his back and them sharing strats to beat dash. And to be honest, I'd probably do the samething, its just the nature of the beast.

And I dont like those raider-venoms either, hopefully dash use his necrons instead until the actual venoms are released.

I'm headed to Dallas June 10-12 for the Railhead Rumble GT. If my Necrons are finished being painted by then, I'll bring them - I wanted to bring them to the Alamo. Otherwise it would have to be these DE again; I already asked about the conversions.

Wargamescon is July 7-10. I pre-ordered my venoms from two different places because of where I have credit at - my nearest FLGS is 2.5 hours away, and there's two of them 2.5 hours away from me in opposite directions. I head to each store once a month for a tournament - the third and fourth weekend of each month. The plan right now: I've asked the store that I'd be at the fourth weekend of the month (a week and a half(?) before wargamescon) to ship me my Venoms - I'll pay for them when I'm there Memorial Day weekend. That will give me two weeks to get them assembled and painted if they get to me with no issues, and then I'll pick up the other half of them the third weekend of the month at the other store, which gives me another two and a half weeks to get the other half sorted out before Wargamescon.

daKing wrote:There is a lot to respond to here but instead of writing a wall of text like dash (which I honestly did not read all of) I will touch on some of the direct questions.

@Wolf 11

Q1) Was the player's army good or bad to play against?
Q2) Was the player good or bad to play against?

A1) The list was Min Maxxed with 16 Splinter cannons on vehicles and 19 or so blasters in those vehicles coupled with the Longer Venoms to gain extra movment... yeah, bad army to play against.

A2) It has been a few days now since the game. IIRC when we were just talking durring the game he was friendly and polite but when we were rolling dice he made every close movement or cover save an issue (which was very frustrtating when he also blocked the path to get to his side of the table with his army tray).

At the time if I had been given these two choices I might have said okay to this one, however since reading all the negative things he's said about me I am certainly glad to have dinged him. Dash is not the type of player I would ever enjoy playing against.

@calypso2ts
" also think it is ridiculous to take back moves that happened in the previous phase."

Agreed, in this case I declared 'shooting phase' and the first thing I wanted to shoot was the passangers inside the storm. When he reminded me I couldn't I asked to disembark since I hadn't acturally done any shooting yet. He said no and I said okay. I don't even know why he mentioned it in his report besides to make me out to be a bad player...?

canthatenuff wrote:
I'll refrain from using bad words but Kingsley is a little girl. It is pretty hard for me to even understand the logic of giving DoP a bad score, especially if what Dash says is true. If Kingsley wasn't having fun he should have conceded.

There are two sides to this discussion and if you want to blindly except everything one person says as truth and disreguard the other side's point of view then you are certainly welcome to do so with all the internet rage at your disposal. I would just like to add that the next two players he faced also gave him bad sports scores so it wasn't just me who didn't like him.

I dont blindly ACCEPT everything he says as truth. You gave him a bad score because he beat you BADLY, he shouldn't have to apologize for being a better and more intelligent player. Maybe you ought to quit going to tournaments. Sore loser.

BIG POINT: I mentioned my disapproval for raiders as venoms, but this isn't necessarily advantageous to Dash. Venoms are smaller thus easier to hide, this is very important. He also would gain almost no movement from having a smaller model. If you disagree with this then your mind doesn't work correctly.