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750 pts against marines? I would bring some heavy weapons team, probably with las or missile launchers. Maybe a hellhound or other flamer weapons, cause IG suck at shooting and autohits are nice. Expect some big guns, like a basilisk or russ.

With capture and control, I would run a whole lot of infantry squads and hope you can't kill them all before the end of the game. I love ratlings so I would bring a squad cause that auto wound on a 4+ is incredibly nice. Rending doesn't hurt either. Well, it does but not me. I still bring a basilisk for a pie to deal with any transports you might field.

-cgmckenzie

He would be MAD not to shoehorn a Leman Russ into his list somehow. I also wouldn't be surprised to see him bring snipers; a buddy of mine just wiped the floor with Marines thanks to gratuitous use of snipers.

sub-zero wrote:I don't play IG, so I have a question for you: If you were to play a game of annihilation or capture and control against vanilla marines at a 750 point level, what would you field and why?

I'm going to be playing a friend of a friend here pretty soon, and he plays IG (valhallen and desert cadian), I play vanilla marines *dodges brick* and would like to get an idea as to what to expect from his army, Thanks in advance.

Well, since you make this a call to IG players. (''); Verses SM he has two real paths. AP3 pie or making you roll lots of saves. I think I would make you roll dice. Not too much pie at 750, but maybe a punisher ('');(most don't like them though), probably a banewolf. (''); I like the fear that demolishers cause sometimes, so if I'm fighting space marines I almost always bring one. (''); You say desert cadian, makes me think he may have a Platoon with counts as Al'Rahem, maybe in chimera. (that's what the wheeled apc in my avatar are for, Al'Rahem and his out flanking platoon. ) I would try to give you a rich target environment with a couple targets you "have to destroy right now" hoping you would ignore some important targets, such as a vet squad (with demo or plasma). Truth is, guard is so flexible (and he can cram in a lot of light armor at 750) you will not know until you play him. Just hope he isn't the king of the first turn Lucky Manticore. It is probably safer to tell you what you will not see. I doubt you will see Rough riders, snipers, (ratling or as special weapon squads) or ogryn. You will not see a techpriest, and probably not storm troopers. Oddly enough I often employ some of these units in low point games, which surprise most of my friends. (Which is why I don't think you will see them.) Having said that , I hope you post an after action report to see what he did build.

I'm shocked that you don't think he'll see snipers, Insurgency. They're cheap and an excellent use of the BS4 CCS. You also 100% will not see a punisher as its only use is against MCs. Demolishers, however, are absolutely likely at all point levels. If he's playing Valhallans, a Demolisher makes an excellent companion for a CC blob.

In terms of what you should pack, though? You really do need to be ready for anything; versatility is your best weapon against a Guard force. Missile launchers are a nice choice, being able to threaten light armor and infantry squads. Don't be fooled by target saturation, either; it's another one of us Guard players' favorite tricks. When presented with a wide array of targets, consider which one will be the biggest threat to your overall victory and don't be afraid to sacrifice a unit to take it out.

I think against Marines, an LRBT would be more efficient use of points over a Demolisher because of the range.

And Ratlings make for better snipers than a CCS. They're just so much cheaper at 10 points a pop.

Owain wrote:I'm shocked that you don't think he'll see snipers, Insurgency. They're cheap and an excellent use of the BS4 CCS. You also 100% will not see a punisher as its only use is against MCs. Demolishers, however, are absolutely likely at all point levels. If he's playing Valhallans, a Demolisher makes an excellent companion for a CC blob.

Snipers work best, (ratling snipers) in good numbers, which a going to be squeezed out by his heavy support choice/fast attack choices. They may end up in a CCS. At 750 he will also probably have only one CCS. As far as the Punisher goes, some of us guard players are starting to like them for a lot more than MC's. For some reason space marines fail to pile up to all fit under one template, after a while at least.

In terms of what you should pack, though? You really do need to be ready for anything; versatility is your best weapon against a Guard force. Missile launchers are a nice choice, being able to threaten light armor and infantry squads. Don't be fooled by target saturation, either; it's another one of us Guard players' favorite tricks. When presented with a wide array of targets, consider which one will be the biggest threat to your overall victory and don't be afraid to sacrifice a unit to take it out.

Hey, stop giving away our secrets!

Geez, there goes my chance of winning next time I play...

Punishers are definitely not "only good against Mc's".

Hits on 4+, wounds on 5+; yeah, really piling the hurt on.

With Pask, though, it *does* get pretty good at piling wounds on MC's.

I would try and field as many heavy weapon teams as possible as they are invaluble in small games. Yes they are bs 3 so miss alot but a squad of 3 is only about 60 points.

If he takes HWTs, giggle, then just pop off a couple Autocannon or AC shots into them and watch them melt. Seriously, those things fold like a cheap card table.

Why would you say that!? EVERYTHING guard folds like a cheap card table! We just have so many tables for you to fold that you can't possibly get them all.

-cgmckenzie

Veterans are in Chimeras, and blobs are Stubborn with LD9, so no, not everything in IG is held together with chinese paper and whispered secrets.

HWTs have horrible LD, horrible saves, and bleh BS. And if you play on a table with little to no terrain... well bye-bye.

blobs can have a 4+ cover just by standing in the open, in comparison.

Blobs are stubborn? I didn't know that! Blobs are combined squads, right? It doesn't say anything about stubborn in the codex for them and they don't get mob rule like orks, so where does it come from?

-cgmckenzie

If the IG player was worth anything he would put at least one Commissar in that blob, making it stubborn.

Ok, that makes sense. I always run Yarrick in my blob but didn't make the connection to the previous post. My bad.

-cgmckenzie

Owain wrote:I'm shocked that you don't think he'll see snipers, Insurgency. They're cheap and an excellent use of the BS4 CCS. You also 100% will not see a punisher as its only use is against MCs.

1) I would not pay 70 points for 4 of the crappiest weapon in 40k(but I would pay 70 points for 7 of them; yay ratlings? )

2) the punisher can be a great anti-horde for 200-210 points(HB Sponsons, maybe a Pintle stubber) that 1 tank will put out fewer shots than a 4-squad blob; but all the shots are higher quality(36 lasguns vs 20 Gatling, and 9 HB; a 3-squad blob with 3 HB does 21 lasguns, and 9 HB, and has a few points left over towards a commissar). Point is that hitting MEQs on a 4+, then Wounding on a 3+ is going to force ~60% more saves than the equivalent blob(9.666 for the pun, 6 for the all lasguns, 6.5 for the Lasguns+HB; on average).

sub-zero wrote:I don't play IG, so I have a question for you: If you were to play a game of annihilation or capture and control against vanilla marines at a 750 point level, what would you field and why?

I'm going to be playing a friend of a friend here pretty soon, and he plays IG (valhallen and desert cadian), I play vanilla marines *dodges brick* and would like to get an idea as to what to expect from his army, Thanks in advance.

On the subject of his army, Desert Cadians sound cool but I haven't a clue what that means (besides my guess of a high mobility light armor force) How ever Valhallen fluff includes Artillery, heavy weapons, priests, and conscripts so you could run into any of that.

Hope this helps. ('');



Automatically Appended Next Post:

L_Dawg wrote:I think against Marines, an LRBT would be more efficient use of points over a Demolisher because of the range.

Marines always want to dry hump the Demolisher. Who am I to deprive them? In most set ups range isn't that important to the demolisher. Most Demolishers have something Ok for a hull mounted weapon. (Now if you could only put Hvy Stubber sponsons on one.)

L_Dawg wrote: And Ratlings make for better snipers than a CCS. They're just so much cheaper at 10 points a pop.

+1

Ok, I got some inside info on the force that he is bringing to the table tonight, apparently, he has a balisck, a leman russ, and a "destroyer tank", not sure what that means, but anyway, that is the extent of his armor. So, knowing that, what should I take to counter those units. I'm assuming that his army will be troop heavy, so HB all around should help.

sub-zero wrote:Ok, I got some inside info on the force that he is bringing to the table tonight, apparently, he has a balisck, a leman russ, and a "destroyer tank", not sure what that means, but anyway, that is the extent of his armor. So, knowing that, what should I take to counter those units. I'm assuming that his army will be troop heavy, so HB all around should help.

So how did it go?

Insurgency Walker wrote:

sub-zero wrote:Ok, I got some inside info on the force that he is bringing to the table tonight, apparently, he has a balisck, a leman russ, and a "destroyer tank", not sure what that means, but anyway, that is the extent of his armor. So, knowing that, what should I take to counter those units. I'm assuming that his army will be troop heavy, so HB all around should help.

So how did it go?

Sorry, I think I worded my post wrong, we didn't play yet, I still have a few units left to assemble and paint before I can do battle. I just meant that I was talking to him last night and found out the extent of his armor I told him to expect a 1000 point battle, so I have some list revisions to make. Now what kind of list should I expect from him knowing that he'll probably be fielding a Basilisk, a Leman russ, and maybe a Demolisher?

Against your SM with those 3, I would probably run autocannons for killing MEQ and a squad of ratlings atleast. I really like infantry platoons, but storm troopers and veterans might be coming your way. Either way, get some powerful AT but you will need something to counter the potential for a horde. Guardsmen are cheap, I can run a 50 man blob for 300 pts, 400 if I have 3 lascannons in a HWS.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:Against your SM with those 3, I would probably run autocannons for killing MEQ and a squad of ratlings atleast. I really like infantry platoons, but storm troopers and veterans might be coming your way. Either way, get some powerful AT but you will need something to counter the potential for a horde. Guardsmen are cheap, I can run a 50 man blob for 300 pts, 400 if I have 3 lascannons in a HWS.

-cgmckenzie

OMG so your telling me that gaurdsmen are 6 points a piece!!! Thats ridiculous, he could literally cover the board in troops for 1000 points.

The likelihood of him swarming that board at 1000pts against marines is pretty low. The big thing with marines is you got guys with good BS skill, armor and decent guns. And fun toys. And the number of guard players that like to pretend their Ailoros and swarm with power blobs tend to be low (Most love the big guns too much).

I would definitly do what it appears he's going to do, and bring at least 1 Basilisk & Russ. Both those guns are AP3, and he's looking to destroy your 'rines w/o dealing with the armor saves. Considering the range on the demolisher, I don't think he'd use it. The demo is great if you need to be blasting some AV14, or Insta-gibbing T5 units, but both are unneeded at 1000pts. A vanilla russ will fiill the roles just fine. So for troops, I'd wager veteran squads kitted out with either plasma (for more marine/terminator killy), or the standard melta.

sub-zero wrote: I told him to expect a 1000 point battle, so I have some list revisions to make. Now what kind of list should I expect from him knowing that he'll probably be fielding a Basilisk, a Leman russ, and maybe a Demolisher?

Search though the IG Army lists on one of the Guard focused forums, or there on Dakka. Many 1,000 point armies posted will give you an idea. To defeat that? I can't make a well and proper Space Marine list to save my life. The core of my space marine army is scouts and LS Storms, got scout bikers too. Anyway, here are some tips. IG is not strong in CC (although IG can build CC armies) but look out for special characters, and commisars and power fist sgts. PBS too. Don't try to out shoot him, unless you like shooty armies and are building a shooty army. A good rule as an IG commander is never leave cover, unless in a transport. (Note, sometimes the transport is the cover) so have flamers. Guard cook well, but leave a bad taste in the mouth. In annilation games, he is going to have kill points all over the place. Find the easy kill points in one location, and don't get tar pitted. In missions with objectives, if he has few troops, hunt them down. If he has all vet squads for troops you may be looking at 3-4 units. Some of this stuff has already come up in this thread, and much more has already been posted in the tactics section. Did around Dakka you will find a lot more good advice.
And don't forget the most important rule. Have fun

Insurgency Walker wrote:

sub-zero wrote: I told him to expect a 1000 point battle, so I have some list revisions to make. Now what kind of list should I expect from him knowing that he'll probably be fielding a Basilisk, a Leman russ, and maybe a Demolisher?

Search though the IG Army lists on one of the Guard focused forums, or there on Dakka. Many 1,000 point armies posted will give you an idea. To defeat that? I can't make a well and proper Space Marine list to save my life. The core of my space marine army is scouts and LS Storms, got scout bikers too. Anyway, here are some tips. IG is not strong in CC (although IG can build CC armies) but look out for special characters, and commisars and power fist sgts. PBS too. Don't try to out shoot him, unless you like shooty armies and are building a shooty army. A good rule as an IG commander is never leave cover, unless in a transport. (Note, sometimes the transport is the cover) so have flamers. Guard cook well, but leave a bad taste in the mouth. In annilation games, he is going to have kill points all over the place. Find the easy kill points in one location, and don't get tar pitted. In missions with objectives, if he has few troops, hunt them down. If he has all vet squads for troops you may be looking at 3-4 units. Some of this stuff has already come up in this thread, and much more has already been posted in the tactics section. Did around Dakka you will find a lot more good advice.
And don't forget the most important rule. Have fun

At first, when I thought he was playing SM, I made a super shooty list. But when I found out he was playing IG, I quickly gave up on the idea of out-shooting his army. LOL A SM army doesn't stand a chance in H@#% at out-shooting IG.

I would go full on mech. In a 750 list SM cant bring out enough anti-armour weapons and the leman russ is so cheap that I would have at least one of those 2 vet squads in chimeras and a command squad in a chimera. If there are enough points left over for another Russ it take it.

Yep did the list real quick
1 Company Command
2Vet Squads
3Chimeras
2Leman Russ Tanks with extra armor and heavy bolter sponsons.
Leaving you with 50 points to spend on special weapons for the vets or CC.

Hope this helps... If he does field this I hope you have something to anti Armor this guy.

How would you counter this? (legit question, How would you?)

That list isn't particularly impressive Hytanthas. You have 25 points to give your Veterans and CC some guns, which simply isn't enough. If you dropped all the useless upgrades on the Russes and spent the points on Meltaguns and Flamers for the infantry, you'd have a more interesting list.

Even having done all that, the list I posted earlier (which is geared for hordes) would take this apart at a 20 point deficit. You'll need to castle up to be safe from the Landspeeder Storm, but then you won't be able to make use of your Veterans. The rest of the Space Marine list can pop a Chimera every other turn while the only return fire are the Russes, who's shots don't do much to the AV13 of the Ironclad and Predator. On turn 4 or 5, the Space Marines can even Gate/LSS into your face and kill the infantry squads that fell out if they need the KPs/contest the objective.

That's dismal, so why not play to the list's strength and not castle up? Because the Landspeeder Storm's Scouts can kill a Russ on the first turn, then survive to finish off the second one. Then the IG have no ranged hitting power, and are mopped up promptly.

750points mech vs. SM

CCS melta x 4 in a chimera = 145

Vets plasma x 3 in a chimera = 170

Vets plasma x 3 in a chimera = 170

Vendetta = 130

Vendetta = 130

ive had alot of luck with this list at 750


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Recently I’ve run this list with one less vendetta and dropped in a medusa and have been able to decimate SM

SM are very hard to field at this point level ,IG has alot of options.

Hytanthas wrote:I would go full on mech. In a 750 list SM cant bring out enough anti-armour weapons and the leman russ is so cheap that I would have at least one of those 2 vet squads in chimeras and a command squad in a chimera. If there are enough points left over for another Russ it take it.

Yep did the list real quick
1 Company Command
2Vet Squads
3Chimeras
2Leman Russ Tanks with extra armor and heavy bolter sponsons.
Leaving you with 50 points to spend on special weapons for the vets or CC.

Hope this helps... If he does field this I hope you have something to anti Armor this guy.

How would you counter this? (legit question, How would you?)

Alright, while I was at work today, I came up with a decent counter list for you, here goes:

HQ
Librarian
(force dome, GOI) 100

Troops
Tac squad (10 man)
ML + flamer
Razorback
Las + TL plasma
extra armor 245

Tac squad (10 man)
ML + flamer
Razorback
Las + TL plasma
extra armor 245

Heavy support
Predator Tank
TL Lascannon
HB side sponsons 130

So basically the two Tac squads split up into (5 man) combat squads, the two ML sqauds sit back and pop enemy armor or foot slog to a close objective. The Libby and the other two squads (with the flamers), move forward to assault troops and possibly pop armor with the Las cannons. The Predator sits back and pops open tanks like a can of sardines, or if need be, moves up and decimates IG hordes with the side mounted HB's and tank shock.

sub-zero wrote:Heavy support
Predator Tank
TL Lascannon
HB side sponsons 130

As cool and versatile as this idea sounds, in practice it is a waste of a slot. The Predator exists to kill hordes or tanks, and functions better if you pick one. Want versatility? Get a Vindicator.

komosunder wrote:CCS melta x 4 in a chimera = 145

Vets plasma x 3 in a chimera = 170

Vets plasma x 3 in a chimera = 170

Vendetta = 130

Vendetta = 130

I like the version with the Medusa better, but this is actually a terror to fight.