GW at its best/ GW at its worst

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**BrookM**

We need this:

**Delephont**

Melissia wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:You do realise that according to most of the fluff at least, Sisters are just female Imperial Guard in better armour?
No, because I actually read the lore.

What lore? Sisters are recruited from the same place as Commissars and Storm Troopers, The Schola Proge-watsitnot..... they have an almighty faith in the Emp, but really, so what? that's not going to stop a mass reactive round.

**Melissia**

Delephont wrote:What lore? Sisters are recruited from the same place as Commissars and Storm Troopers, The Schola Proge-watsitnot..... they have an almighty faith in the Emp, but really, so what? that's not going to stop a mass reactive round.

Commissars, stormtroopers, etc are quite a bit above Guardsmen in skill. Even the basic, least experienced Sister is as good as Imperial Guard veterans and stormtroopers as far as raw skill goes.

And they only go up from there.

Sisters have training which produces results second only to Space Marines amongst the various Imperial agencies-- and that's only because their bodies are unaugmented so they have to sleep and eat more than Marines do, and don't have strength, toughness, and endurance enhancements. As for stopping a mass reactive round? That's what power armor is for. But even Space Marines can be easily killed by a bolter shell.

**PhantomViper**

Melissia wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:You do realise that according to most of the fluff at least, Sisters are just female Imperial Guard in better armour?
No, because I actually read the lore.

And what lore would that be, and I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'm genuinely interested in any piece of fiction that depicts Sisters as anything other than glorified female IG...

**Melissia**

PhantomViper wrote:
Melissia wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:You do realise that according to most of the fluff at least, Sisters are just female Imperial Guard in better armour?
No, because I actually read the lore.
And what lore would that be, and I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'm genuinely interested in any piece of fiction that depicts Sisters as anything other than glorified female IG...

Try actually reading Sisters lore to begin with?

Heck, even C:WH puts them well above the common Guardsman.

**PhantomViper**

Melissia wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
Melissia wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:You do realise that according to most of the fluff at least, Sisters are just female Imperial Guard in better armour?
No, because I actually read the lore.
And what lore would that be, and I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'm genuinely interested in any piece of fiction that depicts Sisters as anything other than glorified female IG...
Try actually reading Sisters lore to begin with?

Heck, even C:WH puts them well above the common Guardsman.

And what lore is that? What specific books apart from their own codex say something like that?

They are just ordinary human females without any sort of augmentation, what specific works of fiction portray them as anything remotely equal to space marines?

If you are so knowledgeable on SoB lore, you can surely point me in the right direction so that I can inform myself.

**Melissia**

Are you seriously going to argue that there's only two levels of skill, human and astartes?

If so, I'm going to ignore you.

And I did give you a source. C:WH is a source that puts Sisters above common guardsmen.

**PhantomViper**

Melissia wrote:Are you seriously going to argue that there's only two levels of skill, human and astartes?

If so, I'm going to ignore you.

And I did give you a source. C:WH is a source that puts Sisters above common guardsmen.

If their own damn codex didn't do that then they would be really bad.

Anything other than that? Any novel? Short story? No? Didn't think so...

**Melissia**

The GK omnibus had them fighting Grey Knights and doing a good job at it..

But Sisters don't HAVE many novels.

**Ratius**

hahhaha Brook, that pic totally caught me off guard!

Mods...can I +1 that?

**Delephont**

There was a SoB book called Blood and Faith or somthing like that, and they pretty much got their asses handed to them by standard human cultists.....

@Melissia
You need to take "lore" with a pinch of salt, because, with GW, depending on whose writing the story, will depend on how "awesome" certain factions appear. Taking all the known fluff and even the game mechanics into consideration, there is nothing to say that a SoB is anything more than equal to a Stormtrooper! Certainly better trained than a standard IG trooper, but nothing more.

It's even strange that given the fact that they have Powered Armour, they don't get a strength or toughness increase...but hey.

All that said, given the uncertainties of war, I would expect some SM to die if they took on the SoB, I would expect them to win, but, they would realistically take some KIA.

**Melissia**

Delephont wrote:You need to take "lore" with a pinch of salt

I do. The fact remains that Sisters are better trained than Guardsman. I don't know why this is controversy, because it's pretty much universally true due to their Schola Progenium training. Really, only Kasrkin training matches the Progenium.

**Doctadeth**

However, Delephont, in blood drinker it has SOBs taking on renegades and winning, let alone in the short story deus Tuum in Let the galaxy burn in which an ultramarine falls to chaos, but the sister does not, survives and then at the end takes down the fallen nurgle marine.

**Kanluwen**

Melissia wrote:
Delephont wrote:You need to take "lore" with a pinch of salt
I do. The fact remains that Sisters are better trained than Guardsman. I don't know why this is controversy, because it's pretty much universally true due to their Schola Progenium training.

Ehhhhhhhhhhh. We don't actually know what Progenium training the Sisters receive. For all we know they could get Underwater Basket Weaving training.

Really, only Kasrkin training matches the Progenium.

The basic training given to a unit of White Shields destined for the standard Cadian Shock matched and exceeded his Progenium training, by a Commissar who was a former Stormtrooper's own admission.

**Melissia**

Kanluwen: I know you love to spank off Cadians and all, but remember that brutal training isn't the same as GOOD training.

**Kanluwen**

Melissia wrote:Kanluwen: I know you love to spank off Cadians and all, but remember that brutal training isn't the same as GOOD training.

Cadia's record says otherwise Mel.

**Melissia**

They had help. Not saying Cadians are bad, no, they're some of the best-- an example that many other worlds try to follow because it works.

But Sisters are, barring specific notable and rare examples, the best that humanity has to offer that isn't a Space Marine (it's almost explicitly stated that this is so). Their martial prowess is quite excellent.

**H.B.M.C.**

Literally the second reply in the thread and he had his shields up at maximum. No chance for even anyone to get a word in.

EDIT: Sisters are not just Guardsmen with better armour. Sisters are the other side of the Scholar Progenium. The first side produces Storm Troopers, the other side Sisters of Battle (and somewhere in the middle, Commissars). Neither of these three things are 'just' Guardsmen.

**djphranq**

Melissia wrote:The GK omnibus had them fighting Grey Knights and doing a good job at it..

But Sisters don't HAVE many novels.

I think I remember that fight. That was in the first GK book right? I thought the sisters were going to tear up the GKs.

Faith and Fire (or Fire and Faith?) was a great sisters book.

RE: Topic

I've only been involved with wargaming for 4 years now and only with gw for 3. Of what I've experienced, GW at its best would be maybe release of Codex: Space Marines or 5th in general. At its worst would be the lack of wave releases for different armies (poor poor nids).

**Kanluwen**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Literally the second reply in the thread and he had his shields up at maximum. No chance for even anyone to get a word in.

It's a pet peeve subject and it gets brought up a lot, generally with incorrect information to support it. Sorry HBMC.

EDIT: Sisters are not just Guardsmen with better armour. Sisters are the other side of the Schola Progenium. The first side produces Storm Troopers, the other side Sisters of Battle (and somewhere in the middle, Commissars). Neither of these three things are 'just' Guardsmen.

Agreed.

Although I will say that it seems the authors are starting to realize that it works far better if a stint within the Guard is a major part of the Progenium training regimen.

**GentlemanGuy**

GW at it's best is the staff introductions to the games. I still remember going in the store when I was 10 yrs old and having an introductory game of both warhammer and wh40k. The staff took it slowly with me so i could understand whats going on and never brought in heavy special rules that would confuse me :-) it's still done this way to this day and they're still helpful if you have a question on rules.

GW at it's worse is the fluff is all over the place :-( when I entered the hobby the Fluff entigued me and I was following it but after so long and so many changes It's hard to keep track of sometimes.

Also I do agree with Melissia in that the SoB's are more than guardsmen. I'm not sprouting a bias view (chaos player) all i'm saying is anyone seeing them as guardsmen in power armour is sorely mistaken.

I've read the codex's that mention them and Daemonifuge (i think thats the one with Ephrael Stern in) and aside from there training, there wargear and their origins it's their faith which makes them strong.

Religion can be blamed for most of the worlds problems but a person fighting for their beliefs is a hard fight. The sisters are the army of the echlesiarchy and are defenders of the faith armed with the holy trinity of bolter, flamer and melta. that more then makes them better then even kasrkin and storm troopers in my book.

**Phobos**

Absolutionis wrote:Whatever happened to the time when Games Workshop was a parody of Fantasy and SciFi tropes? Orks were soccer hooligans, Chaos was grimdark evil badguys, and Ultramarines/BloodAngels were the heroes of heroes?

People started taking Games Workshop fluff too seriously. When that happened, apologetics popped up to fabricate fluff to Zap-a-Gap the plot holes.

At it's best, GW understands that its fluff is nonsensical yet still awesome. They have Skaven with giant rats and mouse wheels. They have Space Wolves riding Wolves from Space while wearing Wolf Talismans of Wolfy Wolf Wolf Claws. Blood Angels deep strike Land Raiders and have Bloodstrike Missiles of Sanguinary Blood Blood Blood Priestblood. It's funny and it's goofy. Wazdakka takes out a Titan. Eldar Spaceclowns dance against the Chaos God(dess) of Excess(ive dance).
Even when the fluff plays itself straight, it's still fantastic. Hive Fleet Leviathan's rerouting is great. The Emperor's Golden Throne is shutting down. Draco raided the Black Library. Flight of the Eisenstein.

Take it lightheartedly. 40k is supposed to be lighthearted grimdark taken to the 11th degree. Overanalyzing the fluff is a waste.

At it's worst, GW doesn't care much about the game aspect. It is indeed a hobby first and foremost, but there are some people that would like to enjoy a game sometimes. The competitive scene is laughably supported by the company and the rules are vague. GWAR is doing a great job with unofficial FAQs. However, people seem to see 40k as a "magic the gathering" in miniature form and pretend it is just as competitive. No. It's a casual game with loose rules for the sake of fun... according to GW. With vague rules, 1-year-late FAQs, no regard to internal balance, codex creep, 'Ard Boyz, and other factors, GW is sending mixed messages on how competitive the game should be.

What this guy said. This game was never meant to be taken seriously both in content and competitiveness the way it is today.

**-Loki-**

edit - I read that completely wrong.

**Lord Poison**

GW at its best- back in 3rd ed 40k for me, the game was fun, the fluff didn't seem to take itself so seriously. It really seemed like they wanted you to have a fun read and remember old 80s movies and what not. As a kid going into it I was reminded of many movies and such I loved and everything was very creative. Terrain was 99% hand made, armies had a lot of alternate lists, often made in white dwarfs for people to just try and mess around with.
Now, creativity seems lost, the fluff takes itself way to seriously and I can't stand reading anything 40k (fantasy is okay, but is quickly becoming 40k with swords, its boring, everyone is always evil, I don't want anyone to win, they're all terrible people) I donno what GW's hatred against the clear good is, but it hardly makes for good reading to me (to me, other people might disagree but these are my thoughts).
Fantasy seems like WoW in model form, its bizarre, 40k is space marines of many types and their sub par friends who, will probably be phased out one day, I can't stand playing against or with marines, so I finally quit 40k.
I hardly recognize this hobby anymore (I wouldn't even call it that, it has more in common with video games then it does with a hobby).

**bombboy1252**

Best: the models, They are such good quality, kind of expensive, but still good quality. The paints, I love the paints, though I think they should be less than 5 dollars for the small amount you get.

Worst: Their infinite love for space marines. Very little love for xenos makes bombboy sad

**Bullockist**

ON A serious note:
In regard to the SOB.
It is clear to me from the lore that Blooddrinkers like to fight the S.O.B once a month and blood angels have their red wings.

**Delephont**

Melissia wrote:They had help. Not saying Cadians are bad, no, they're some of the best-- an example that many other worlds try to follow because it works.

But Sisters are, barring specific notable and rare examples, the best that humanity has to offer that isn't a Space Marine (it's almost explicitly stated that this is so). Their martial prowess is quite excellent.

Arn't you forgetting Imperial Assassins, and Inquisitors in that line up? Seriously though, what is this need to peg SoB on a ladder of excellence? What I mean by that, if you were to read every codex back to back, you'd see that in every case each army / race is the baddest bad ass ever to stalk the galaxy....blah blah blah, it's almost as if each codex is a self contained piece of propaganda written by that faction for recruitment purposes......and has already been discussed, we know the glaring holes and contradiction in the fluff, that makes it almost impossible to follow and even more insane to argue over.

The bottom line, there is no ultimate fighting force, every army that roles out ontot he gaming table / fluff battlefield will get it's ass handed to it, either due to bad dice rolling or because (in the fluff) it makes a "good" story.

**warspawned**

GW at its best: They (very nearly) always produce good models which only seem to get better. For me it was back in 2nd to 3rd Ed 40k when White Dwarf had a lot of words and less of a glossy catalogue type-feel. Back when it wasn't driven by sales people demanding big monsters, large units & Terminators for all armies *shudders* - in short back when it was more human and less corporate.

GW at its worst: As it is at the moment.

**Melissia**

Delephont wrote:Arn't you forgetting Imperial Assassins, and Inquisitors in that line up?

No, because they aren't a military force.

That's like trying to compare the military capabilities of a Mossad assassin versus a USMC rifleman.

**CT GAMER**

PhantomViper wrote:
Melissia wrote:Are you seriously going to argue that there's only two levels of skill, human and astartes?

If so, I'm going to ignore you.

And I did give you a source. C:WH is a source that puts Sisters above common guardsmen.

If their own damn codex didn't do that then they would be really bad.

Anything other than that? Any novel? Short story? No? Didn't think so...

Novels and short stories are usually written by idiots/outsiders who are given cheat sheets so they can get the lore right, and yet many of the novels have glaring errors and holes.

I would suggest taking anything in them with a grain of salt. Not to mention i have never seen GW proclaim them a valid/official source of lore/info.

How about relaxing your dissmissive tone just a tad...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Delephont wrote:
Melissia wrote:They had help. Not saying Cadians are bad, no, they're some of the best-- an example that many other worlds try to follow because it works.

But Sisters are, barring specific notable and rare examples, the best that humanity has to offer that isn't a Space Marine (it's almost explicitly stated that this is so). Their martial prowess is quite excellent.

Arn't you forgetting Imperial Assassins, and Inquisitors in that line up? Seriously though, what is this need to peg SoB on a ladder of excellence? What I mean by that, if you were to read every codex back to back, you'd see that in every case each army / race is the baddest bad ass ever to stalk the galaxy....blah blah blah, it's almost as if each codex is a self contained piece of propaganda written by that faction for recruitment purposes......and has already been discussed, we know the glaring holes and contradiction in the fluff, that makes it almost impossible to follow and even more insane to argue over.

The bottom line, there is no ultimate fighting force, every army that roles out ontot he gaming table / fluff battlefield will get it's ass handed to it, either due to bad dice rolling or because (in the fluff) it makes a "good" story.

You can't seem to decide if you are talking about the game or the fluff/lore?

Most things on the tabletop are NOT direct representations of their status/power in the fluff/lore.

Sisters have excellent military training that is on par with Storm troopers and other elite Imperials along with some of the most powerful armor and weaponry given to infantry in the Imperium.

On top of that they can willingly perform miracles with the power of their religious fervor, which combned with their weaponry and training makes them easily one of the most powerful individual warriors in the Imperium,.

I would put them second behind Space marines, though the gap between them is substantial as in the fluff even a standard marine is a god of war far more powerful then what we see on the tabletop.

This thread demonstrates the standard dissmissive level of disrespect that the SOB army has felt since day one of their creation. Not surprising in a game populated mostly by nerdy pre-pubescent boys, and heavy metal devotees etc. Why play "the girl army" when you can play angry faced super soldiers. Besides female models shouldn't be "nuns with guns" they should show more skin and have bigger tits...

Disdain for SOB is second only tp the forced disdain for Ultramarines that so many "internet cool guys" love to spout in threads like this...