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Ouze wrote:Why do you keep writing off people who don't like the fluff by presuming they haven't read it?
Do you know for sure that Howard Treesong has not read it in a FLGS or whatever? Do you know this, for sure? Or was it just a way of invalidating his opinion?

I can write those people off Ouze because in a great many cases, they haven't read it. If people don't like the way Draigo has been written or think that Ward has a bit of a case of the "Supermanitis" in that the whole book comes off as over the top--that's perfectly acceptable.

But when people continually cite what I consider "The Ward Talking Points"(Sisters of Battle butchered and the Bloodtide meaning Grey Knights are worshiping Khorne, Draigo carving name into heart of Mortarion, Draigo burning down Nurgle's Garden, Crowe wielding a Daemon Sword) with no mention of things like the Jokaero or Mordrak and his "Ghost Knights"--I can get a fair picture of where they got their information, and it is not from having even glanced at the book.

You leave the Jokaero alone.

Somehow Draigo striding through the Warp, as a plaything of the Dark Gods, is unacceptable but the return of Space Chimps is fantastic?

Do you see the problem I have with Wardhate?

Best - The miniatures are a given, but the development of 40K and Fantasy races over the years is what has kept me interested.

Worst - Pretty much their whole approach to interacting with the gaming community. "Buy this, it's amazing!" is about all they're capable of these days. It amuses me that the guys in charge of the web page claim that they have to buy every new release, "because it's soooo cool."

Best: the minis. Between the number, diversity, quality and price, GW is far and away the best in the world. In fact, they're so good I'm willing to put up with the...

Worst: rules maintenance. The core rules are just fine, though I think it's sad so much of the crazy humour has been lost. But saying GW are fething awful at maintaining the rules, is the understatement of the year. Why don't they publish an annual, fluff-free compendium of all the lists and rules? Why don't they make that same book available as a pdf? Why do they disorganise the - beyond shoddy - rule books they actually do publish, so severely that the only people capable of looking up information in them in a reasonable amount of time, are people who can recite the books, catechism-style? And why do they have that insane aversion to publishing quality hardbacks?

Ack...

I realise rules devs probably play with with a couple of ring binders & laptops, and spend 90% of their games talking, testing & writing down new rules variants, and thus never or hardly ever simply play the game by the rules-as-they-are. But break out of that fething bubble already, sweet devs. The rest of us do not play the game like that. To us it's a massive fething inconvenience to have the rules scattered across half a dozen (if not more) books, each of which is organised in such a way that it takes forever just to find what you're looking for in them, and almost all of which are of a quality that you don't want to be throwing them around the gaming table, for fear of them falling apart.

*Deep breath*

OK, I'm done ranting now. But really... For a company that makes rules heavy games, they suck so badly at it that I'd refuse to believe it if I hadn't experienced it first hand. And uhm... Sorry about the swearing & stuffs. It's just... Their ineptitude just really pisses me off.

Kanluwen wrote: But when people continually cite what I consider "The Ward Talking Points"(Sisters of Battle butchered and the Bloodtide meaning Grey Knights are worshiping Khorne, Draigo carving name into heart of Mortarion, Draigo burning down Nurgle's Garden, Crowe wielding a Daemon Sword) with no mention of things like the Jokaero or Mordrak and his "Ghost Knights"--I can get a fair picture of where they got their information, and it is not from having even glanced at the book.

But.....could it also be the case that those points are the points that people like the least, and therefore talk about the most?

Delephont wrote:

Kanluwen wrote: But when people continually cite what I consider "The Ward Talking Points"(Sisters of Battle butchered and the Bloodtide meaning Grey Knights are worshiping Khorne, Draigo carving name into heart of Mortarion, Draigo burning down Nurgle's Garden, Crowe wielding a Daemon Sword) with no mention of things like the Jokaero or Mordrak and his "Ghost Knights"--I can get a fair picture of where they got their information, and it is not from having even glanced at the book.

But.....could it also be the case that those points are the points that people like the least, and therefore talk about the most?

I've thought about that before, yes.

But you can tell a difference in the way people raise the points based on who has read the book.

Kanluwen wrote:Somehow Draigo striding through the Warp, as a plaything of the Dark Gods, is unacceptable but the return of Space Chimps is fantastic?

The difference is that one is silly and fun. The other stuff is also silly but is just depressing with all the grimdark they are piling on.

Do you see the problem I have with Wardhate?

It's not Ward-hate. Who wrote it is irrelevant. It's adolescent, borderline misogynistic tosh is the problem.

Delephont wrote:

Kanluwen wrote: But when people continually cite what I consider "The Ward Talking Points"(Sisters of Battle butchered and the Bloodtide meaning Grey Knights are worshiping Khorne, Draigo carving name into heart of Mortarion, Draigo burning down Nurgle's Garden, Crowe wielding a Daemon Sword) with no mention of things like the Jokaero or Mordrak and his "Ghost Knights"--I can get a fair picture of where they got their information, and it is not from having even glanced at the book.

But.....could it also be the case that those points are the points that people like the least, and therefore talk about the most?

Don't feed the Kan... It won't do any good.

Kanluwen is not a troll.

Let's keep the argument away from the personal level.

Simsum wrote:Best: the minis. Between the number, diversity, quality and price, GW is far and away the best in the world. In fact, they're so good I'm willing to put up with the...

Worst: rules maintenance. The core rules are just fine, though I think it's sad so much of the crazy humour has been lost. But saying GW are fething awful at maintaining the rules, is the understatement of the year. Why don't they publish an annual, fluff-free compendium of all the lists and rules? Why don't they make that same book available as a pdf? Why do they disorganise the - beyond shoddy - rule books they actually do publish, so severely that the only people capable of looking up information in them in a reasonable amount of time, are people who can recite the books, catechism-style? And why do they have that insane aversion to publishing quality hardbacks?

Ack...

I realise rules devs probably play with with a couple of ring binders & laptops, and spend 90% of their games talking, testing & writing down new rules variants, and thus never or hardly ever simply play the game by the rules-as-they-are. But break out of that bubble already, sweet devs. The rest of us do not play the game like that. To us it's a massive fething inconvenience to have the rules scattered across half a dozen (if not more) books, each of which is organised in such a way that it takes forever just to find what you're looking for in them, and almost all of which are of a quality that you don't want to be throwing them around the gaming table, for fear of them falling apart.

*Deep breath*

OK, I'm done ranting now. But really... For a company that makes rules heavy games, they suck so badly at it that I'd refuse to believe it if I hadn't experienced it first hand. And uhm... Sorry about the swearing & stuffs. It's just... Their ineptitude just really pisses me off.

Mod: Watch the language. Cleaner rants, please.

As a poster: While I agree with your two choices, for me the models are NOT
enough to get me to keep up with the games. I paint some units because the
models intrigue me. Lately I've been working on Grey Knights, Imperial
Guardsmen/Kasrkin, Ogre Kingdoms. However, whenever I look at the rules
or watch a game or plan my army, I'm not all that enthusiastic, so I prep
for the next Warmachine event.

It's okay, though. GW loves me because I still buy models.

Games Workshop at their best, is, in my opinion, as a mini company. They do make a great deal of terrific quality miniatures with a lot of character, their customer support is excellent, and the game is fun. Ruleswise, Some of the codexes really remember it's a game and not grimdark srs bsnss; I'm looking at you, Ork Codex. I feel Orks have a legitimate army for almost any sort of build you'd like to do, and still have a lot of fun like with the Shokk Attack Gun.

Games Workshop at it's worst is with the new finecast debacle, where they endlessly hyped it as the best thing evar! (which was OK) and then did not deliver at all (which was not). Writing-wise, I also don't like the direction some of the current codexes are going in, specifically the Grey Knight codex. I had planned to buy it until I read it, I found it be amateurishly written. It was a turn-off. I don't know how great they are mechanic wise, I'm not a tournament player. But reading about hiding Titan in the warp, the fact that all the secret sauce they slather on their armor isn't apparently enough to protect them from corruption but sister's blood is, the carving the name on the heart thing; these are all stupid at best. It also makes you wonder if these guys are so much the balls, why are they losing? It kinda screws up their whole mythos. Also was not too fond of the Nemesis Dreadknight, which is imo the worst model they have come up with in recent memory.

Kanluwen wrote:
If you want to start with that "bathed in blood" trash I'm fine with that too. Especially because the wording is that they "anointed" their wargear, and it describes how the blood was used alongside sacred unguents and oils commonly used to repel Daemonic influences in a ritual to allow them to go through what y'know...corrupted an entire Shrineworld.

Sad are the days that this adolescent twaddle was professionally published.

Sad are the days that people whine about things without having read them.

Well, considering anointing involves pouring and smearing I would say the "bathed in blood" isn't too much of a hyperbole after all.

Kanluwen wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW is well past it's best. Sorry, it's not all nostalgia, it was better years ago.

Some of the recent fluff has to be the real nadir. The Blood Angels teaming up with Necrons,

They didn't "team up with Necrons". They fought the same enemy and the words "impromptu alliance" were used. That doesn't mean they fistbumped or whatever stupid tripe gets used to describe it. They had been beating the pants off each other until the Tyranids showed up, after which they focused on the real threat.

That sounds like greek city states... always bickering, and then when the persians come out to play, they team up.

I feel like such a geek.

Scipio Africanus wrote:That sounds like greek city states... always bickering, and then when the persians come out to play, they team up.

I feel like such a geek.

It's ok. I feel your pain, bro.

It also makes you wonder if these guys are so much the balls, why are they losing?

Id say on this point that in a war of attrition against the daemons, sure the GK might kill a bucketload of them but they (the daemons) dont die, they are basically banished back to the realm of chaos when their material form is destroyed only to make a glorious return how ever many thousand years later. It seems like the ultimate war in futility.

Personally I think GW was at their best (by comparison) during third edition. Third edition had new releases for factions other than Space Marines (including Chaos) and WD actually had content.

I think GW now is currently at its worst. I think between the high prices the dodgy business decisions (secrecy, finecast, embargo etc), lack of non space marine releases, lack of meaningful content in White Dwarf and (in my opinion) the lack of quality in 5th edition codices, today is a bad time to collect GW. Another dakka user has said summed it up best with the saying “the best time to collect GW was yesterday”.

Also I’ve noticed there have been a few people attempting to rebuttal other people’s opinions (posted in an opinionated feedback thread) which shows poor form in my opinion. If I had the time, I repost the “someone on the internet is wrong” comic.

Good: In the past GW offered fine support for competitions. They have created some great games and game universes.

Bad: Finecast bubble failures with ridiculous price rises. Exclusion of the southern hemisphere re. their mail ordering embargo. End result GW gone downhill and losing a lot of support. The 2nd hand market is doing better than ever however!

Back in the day humans and eldar made the beast with two backs. And everyone had mowhawks.

Cheesecat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
If you want to start with that "bathed in blood" trash I'm fine with that too. Especially because the wording is that they "anointed" their wargear, and it describes how the blood was used alongside sacred unguents and oils commonly used to repel Daemonic influences in a ritual to allow them to go through what y'know...corrupted an entire Shrineworld.

Sad are the days that this adolescent twaddle was professionally published.

Sad are the days that people whine about things without having read them.

Well, considering anointing involves pouring and smearing I would say the "bathed in blood" isn't too much of a hyperbole after all.

"Bathing" or "bathed" in the context implies more than just the action. It also implies a pleasurable side, like the Grey Knights enjoyed the killing and mutilation.

Well, this is fantastic!

I no longer bathe myself to be cleanly. I have 'anointed' myself, thus making me cleanly and presentable to everyone, even as I kick at their heads from my high horse.

GW at their Best: As they are now. After all, without GW, I would have never discovered Catalyst Games, or Battlefront, or Wyrd, or Corvus Belli, or Spartan Games, or TooFatLardies, etc., etc.

GW at their Worst: As they are now (bet you didn't see that coming, yeah?). Overpriced miniatures via the 'Warhammer-name Tax', poor rules, kicked-in-the-crotch PR moves, you've heard all of this before, plenty of times.

Kilkrazy wrote:Kanluwen is not a troll.

*holds up shield between The Kan and The Crowd*

Damn straight. Kan may be a lot of things, and this thread has highlighted pretty well the near-automatic manner in which he leaps to GW's defence and how utterly intolerant he is of differing viewpoints, but he is not and has never been a troll (not matter how angry I may get at him from time to time).

Kanluwen's not a troll, he's just a dork.

I chat with him quite frequently, and I can confirm that he is, in fact, quite dorky.

Kilkrazy wrote:Kanluwen is not a troll.

Also, I'm pretty sure that no one actually called him a troll.

Best: GW makes some decent miniatures, particularly the Dark Eldar Scourges.

Worst: Fanbois aside, GW also makes some terrible miniatures, particularly the new Ogre Tusking Tusker with Extra Tusks.

Pros:
- The years of enjoyment their games have given me, especially when younger - Epic, BB, BFG, the MB Boardgames, 40k and WFB, even LoTR at times. Aside from everything else, they have provided me with many happy times. They were also a gateway to have a good time with other people, and to get involved in modelling and painting (which I would liken to being almost meditative in how relaxing it can be after a hard day's work).
- The stories and background, specifically 40k - dark-dystopian future was such a brave direction to take in amongst popular culture being addled with the sickly sweet of Hollywood, yet they pulled it off. This is mitigated somewhat by it losing a little of it's sense of humour, and people taking it far too seriously. I once saw an entirely serious thread entitled "Is the Emperor left or right handed?" which made me immediately close the browser and take a look at myself in the mirror.
- I still believe a GW store is a unique and somewhat charming addition to the highstreet. Yes, they have lost some of their 'soul' but I still think it's pretty nice that you can enjoy moping around, providing the staff aren't too aggressive. And again, many happy hours of my childhood were spent in one, replaced by cold and hard cynicism in later years but you still see that look of wonder and excitement on kids faces when they come into the store so it is obviously still there in some form.
-As much as I despise some of the newer kits (the Stormraven for example) when they get it right, they can get it very very right. The Dark Eldar being the case in point.

Cons
*clicks knuckles together*
- How long do you have ? Seriously I've spent so much time writing things in other threads that I can't be bothered again, here is an abbreviated form done with minimum effort:
Prices/finecast/trade embargo/secrecy/white dwarf/staff layoffs/Tom Kirby/Playmobil Stormraven/specialist games/power of the sales department/marketing (or lack of)/use of technology (or lack of)/arrogance/'rot at the top'/cut in R&D/one man stores/lack of vision.
I could go on, but I don't think anyone would have got that far anyway!

GW at its best: In the "Good Old Days" when GW was a company made by gamers for gamers, those where the days of the scratchbuilt 40k vehicle rules, the days of Town Cryer and Citadel Journal and Inferno! When they made things just for fun and when White Dwarf was actually much more than just a giant add.

GW at its worst: 90% of the stuff that came after they aquired the LoTR rights, I swear that that was the exact day that GW turned from its roots and became an "Evil Empire!"...

Kanluwen wrote:
They didn't "team up with Necrons". They fought the same enemy and the words "impromptu alliance" were used. That doesn't mean they fistbumped or whatever stupid tripe gets used to describe it. They had been beating the pants off each other until the Tyranids showed up, after which they focused on the real threat.

It was definitely worse than that. I read the exact words somewhere and it even said something about how the "the Blood Angels at least" would have felt bad about fighting those they recently teamed up with.

Im forever defending GW because much of the criticism the nerds direct at them is ridiculous, but that was some seriously stupid gak right there.

Best times of GW ?

When i started the game when 3rd was released and was new to me.
New model releases, the new platic kits are very nice.
Pre Matt Ward rules.

Worst ? Every year since then..

Broken Rules across the game, very very poor writing/balance.

Terrible army updates.. pick an army to play, then re-pick due to they are outdated and fail on the table compared to the new stuff.

Your army will get updated once every 4-6 years, then you have a 50/50 chance youll hate the rules, then a good chance you need to rebuy the army as the rules are made to sell models.

Constant increasing prices and lower quality with finecast.

I'm always suprised about the Matt Ward concerns. 2 sentances? Really? That much angst over 2 sentances? The rules he writes seem pretty solid to me but then again I'm not a hard core player or hard core fluff bandit.

GW at its best? Bringing the hobby, cheaply, to a number of people world wide. Their penetration of the space has allowed a cottage industry of gaming and miniature design to rise up. Are there cheaper figs? Yep. Are there better figures? Yep. However, rarely do you find that you get the quality of a GW kit at the price point it is available at, even given a variety of price increases. I can get a lot of enjoyment out of little dollar layout between painting and gaming.

GW at its worst? Delievering the hobby in a consumable manner to newer generations. By this I mean that GW struggles to make its products availalble in a style/format that is more mainstream. Painting models and sitting across from your buddies to play a game is light years away from mainstream gaming today. In the 1980's, WHFB arose from D&D. It Provided the player a new way to envision a game and battle of a fantastical nature (not knock on historicals)

oday, people are surrounded by these environments (video games and movies). And..most are more attractive visually and more exciting to play. So while core gaming becomes more mainstream (in the US anyways) GWs core games and hobbies continue to stagnate. I'm not sure that the core (WHFB/WH40K) can change in a meaningful way to drive the GW universes into the future. They have married themselves to the codex and rulebook. I'd love to know how many people worldwide play Space Marine vs. a tabletop game of 40K. It will be a huge tell that those numbers are tipped toward the video game.

IMO, the GW of the future is strictly an IP company, delivering core products in a niche fashion to its miniature gamers and deriving its income from selling its IP and delivering Black Library content (which drives more video games/movies etc). Hobbiests and face to face gamers are just not that popular considering the time committment. The 40K and WHFB product in 10 years will be a small(er) part of what the company does when you consider the changing customer, the competition for engaged consumer and the overhead it takes to generate those dollars in sales.

I hate that this became another Mat Ward hate thread. I agree with Kan on a lot of points, and I really like some of Ward's work. Some of it I find pretty silly or over the top, but 40k has always been silly and over the top. If anyone takes this game and universe 100% seriously they're doing it wrong, since not even the creators do all the time.

GW is at its best in terms of models right now. The plastic kits these days are mind blowing compared to the plastics of the late 90s or even the mid 2000s. Finecast stuff looks really good when there aren't any miscasts (which has been ironed out a bit) and the washes and foundation paints mean that GW is actually a pretty solid paint distributor as well. It's also a great time for the 40k IP, with fresh new writers putting their own spin on the universe (Aaron Dembski-Bowden <3) and some great games with the Dawn of War series and Space Marine.

Unfortunately, this is a low point for GW's corporate side. Prices are too high, marketing is non-existent, and GW is treating its customer base horribly. At best it's pandering. White Dwarf is better than it was a year ago but that's not saying much at all.

As for rules writing, I think this is a midpoint. Things aren't as varied as 4th edition, but not as homogenized as 3rd edition. They're overall pretty well balanced though, so I can't complain.