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It's like the title says, what do you think sets GW at the top of its form, and what do you think represents it at its worst. I suspect that the same thing will appear in either column, depending on the person.

GW at its best: In my opinion, the recent DE releases are definitely representitive of some serious talent and skill, and are easily worth the price.

GW at it's worst: The constant recycling from earlier editions of 40K rules from earlier editions and the fact 40K is moving back to a hero based system as shown in the Grey Knights and BA codexes.

GW is well past it's best. Sorry, it's not all nostalgia, it was better years ago.

Some of the recent fluff has to be the real nadir. The Blood Angels teaming up with Necrons, or Grey Knights butchering a load of Battle Sisters. Sad are the days that this adolescent twaddle was professionally published.

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW is well past it's best. Sorry, it's not all nostalgia, it was better years ago.

Some of the recent fluff has to be the real nadir. The Blood Angels teaming up with Necrons,

They didn't "team up with Necrons". They fought the same enemy and the words "impromptu alliance" were used. That doesn't mean they fistbumped or whatever stupid tripe gets used to describe it. They had been beating the pants off each other until the Tyranids showed up, after which they focused on the real threat.

or Grey Knights butchering a load of Battle Sisters.

If by "butchering a load of Battle Sisters" you mean "killing those who survived a Daemonic taint that corrupted an entire fething Shrineworld and its attendant Order of Adepta Sororitas leaving few untouched", sure.
And if by "butchered" you mean "killed in a manner that isn't described".
If you want to start with that "bathed in blood" trash I'm fine with that too. Especially because the wording is that they "anointed" their wargear, and it describes how the blood was used alongside sacred unguents and oils commonly used to repel Daemonic influences in a ritual to allow them to go through what y'know...corrupted an entire Shrineworld.

Sad are the days that this adolescent twaddle was professionally published.

Sad are the days that people whine about things without having read them.

Sisters used to be untaintable and necrons once killed all living things on sight.

corpsesarefun wrote:Sisters used to be untaintable

Sisters used to be uncorruptable. Taint != corruption. We've gone over this dozens, if not hundreds, of times in the Background forum.
You can be tainted without being corrupted. Corruption is willingly doing something, taint is just being exposed to something.

and necrons once killed all living things on sight.

Nope. Not since the 13th Black Crusade has that been true.

I've read enough of the way that they keep trying to make characters ever more ludicrously whup-ass with Draigo floating around the warp killing bloodthirsters and carving his mate's name in to the heart of Mortarion, who lets not forget is a chaos-beefed up Primarch and all the other guff about him burnign Nurgle's garden and being a one man army in the realm of chaos itself.

It's just a joke. You can tell GW is for kids now, it like a cartoon full of 'kewl' crap about slaughtering people.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I've read enough of the way that they keep trying to make characters ever more ludicrously whup-ass with Draigo floating around the warp killing bloodthirsters

You mean Draigo, the Grey Knight who essentially has become a Daemon himself and is used as a kind of myth amongst the Grey Knights of the worst possible
fate for their kind?

and carving his mate's name in to the heart of Mortarion, who lets not forget is a chaos-beefed up Primarch

And let's not forget Mortarion is also a Daemon, and it was in the midst of a battle between the Grey Knights and a Daemonic horde led by Mortarion.

and all the other guff about him burning Nurgle's garden and being a one man army in the realm of chaos itself.

And "all the other guff" also includes the fact that every single triumph he has within the Realm of Chaos itself is undone in the blink of an eye.
He burned down Nurgle's Garden--and it was rebuilt in the space of him turning his back on the smoldering ashes.

Draigo is, without coming off as too analytical, Ward's attempt at creating a Sisyphus-styled character within the Grey Knights.

And guess what? It works. The whole point of Draigo is that for as powerful as he is, he's essentially a "slave" to the whim of the Ruinous Powers. He's amusing them with his antics, if they focused even a fraction of their power towards destroying him there's not a damn thing he could do.

It's just a joke.

No sir, the joke is that people continually comment on this stuff without having actually read the material in question.

Is it something that will be hailed as literary gold? Of bloody course not. But then again, neither is an Ork destroying a Titan by crashing his motorcycle through it.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I've read enough of the way that they keep trying to make characters ever more ludicrously whup-ass with Draigo floating around the warp killing bloodthirsters and carving his mate's name in to the heart of Mortarion, who lets not forget is a chaos-beefed up Primarch and all the other guff about him burnign Nurgle's garden and being a one man army in the realm of chaos itself.

It's just a joke. You can tell GW is for kids now, it like a cartoon full of 'kewl' crap about slaughtering people.

QFT

We're getting a lot of examples of how people think GW can be at it's worst, but what is it about the times that people think GW was at its best?
There had to have been something good or you guys wouldn't have found your way to a mainly GW forum.
Let's all remember that the opinions expressed are just that, opinions and not go the route of drawing a 10 foot circle and throwing in the knives.

I really feel that GW is at its best and worst at the same time, it can't be argued that the sculpting abilities of the artists working for GW are improving just about every model produced by games workshop and that these artists can be considered some of the best miniature sculptors in the world, look at some models from 10 years ago compared to today, it a whole new ball park so in that aspect I would have to say hands down that GW is at its best. Now, for the other side of the post.... I would also through the argument that GW is at its worst right now too, and its not entirely their fault, we are still stuck in a global recession and therefore most people don't have a lot of disposable income to throw at games and instead of trying to lower prices to increase sales they have chosen to raise prices to maintain larger profit margins, and because of their chosen tactics I would also say that GW is currently at their worst, I would even be happy if they did a 10% decrease across the board in it would prove to me that they are in this for the game not just the money. that being said, I thank you for taking the time to read my post. Happy gaming!

GW, in the main, has great customer service. Aided by the fact that they have a easy to understand and contact customer service centre, the same can not be said of every other miniatures / gaming producer.

Kanluwen wrote:
Draigo is, without coming off as too analytical, Ward's attempt at creating a Sisyphus-styled character within the Grey Knights.

And guess what? It works. The whole point of Draigo is that for as powerful as he is, he's essentially a "slave" to the whim of the Ruinous Powers. He's amusing them with his antics, if they focused even a fraction of their power towards destroying him there's not a damn thing he could do.

Yeah. "Attempt". At the hands of a man with actual literary talent, it might even been a good idea. Sadly, Mr. Ward is not that man. He wouldn't know good storytelling if it walked up and ate his heart.

Kan, you're adding a lot of interesting points to these characters and their situations, but it's you the one who's adding them. If anything, it's a testament to Ward's incompetence as a writer. You assume more depth than is actually there.

Publishing a Dark Angels novel that got my friend with literacy problems into reading and talking about what she'd read.

Leaving it for so long before giving Dark Angels parity with Codex SM that said friend lost patience and sold her DA army.

Another GW Hatred thread VS anyone who decides legitimately to spend their money on a product that is "overpriced, out of date, lacking in quality, stiffling the market, THE DEVILS QUORUM"



Ah moan on guys/girls; wont make a smidgen of a difference to the "GW CORPORTATE MACHINE".

Like the game/idea: buy it.
Dont: play something else and relax.

Everyone happy?

GW at its best would be what they did with Epic and Blood Bowl. GW at its worst is likely the model they use for the edition cycling of 40k and WHFB.

Fafnir wrote:Kan, you're adding a lot of interesting points to these characters and their situations, but it's you the one who's adding them.

It's not so much that I'm "adding them", it's that I'm putting forth my interpretation of what is there--especially given the way that Ward talks about his writings. I can easily believe that he has these ideas--but can't present them in a written format so well. I even made a note of that in my post when I said that it won't be hailed as literary gold.

It's no different than Andy Chambers, who could spin a yarn that would make you genuinely care about everything in it. But when it came to rules for those characters? He wasn't that great.

Where they both, in my opinion, come together is that you can tell that they both do have an understanding of the setting and in Ward's case--genuinely seems to be happy just to be working within a setting he loves.

If anything, it's a testament to Ward's incompetence as a writer. You assume more depth than is actually there.

I'd be remiss to not assume there's more depth there.

In any case, what I've done is no different than the people you see attributing children's books to being political indoctrination tools.

Which kind of makes me feel dirty.

There's worse things out there than Draigo to be sure. Sons of Malice comes to mind.

@Kanluwen

LOL.

Are you seriously backing Matt Ward????

DrownedRat117 wrote:@Kanluwen

LOL.

Are you seriously backing Matt Ward????

You got a problem with that?

In Kanluwens defence, interpretation of depth in stories is nothing new or strange, each person takes from a piece of literature what they will, case in point, the Bible.

To be honest, I don't necessarily see what all the fuss is about with Mat Ward, it's not like the guy is trying to re-write history (real history) he's expanding stories within a gaming setting, and adding his own perspective.....Blood Angels fighting alongside Necrons.....yeah why not? Grey Knights killing SoB, why not, the Space Wolves did that to, and for less of a reason....

I think if y'all remember the fact that it's a game, things start to stress you less.

Melissia wrote:There's worse things out there than Draigo to be sure. Sons of Malice comes to mind.

Whats wrong with the Sons of Malice?

Weren't they just offhandedly mentioned in the Index Astartes and a short story in one of the space marine anthologies? Did I miss something ridiculous?

edit1: I only vaguely remember both of those appearences, so can't remember if they were ridiculous.

edit2: Man, with all of this hate on Mat Ward, C.S. Goto must be looking at him as a gift from the gods of Geekdom, because Ward has become the go to guy for bad fluff examples. And nothing Ward has done is as egregious as Goto's many blasphemies. IMO

In terms of making high quality models, GW is probably at it's peak right now. So many of the models are amazing now, where in years past only about half of things released were even worth looking at unless you needed them in your army.

For the hobby/game side, they have to be near the bottom as others have said. The fluff is a bit strange, but in this universe that isn't completely off kilter.

For making their games good, that ha to be near the bottom. The rules are rubbish, poorly written, and poorly executed.

The prices are also well beyond ridiculous by this point as well.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NELS1031 wrote:

Melissia wrote:There's worse things out there than Draigo to be sure. Sons of Malice comes to mind.

Whats wrong with the Sons of Malice?

Weren't they just offhandedly mentioned in the Index Astartes and a short story in one of the space marine anthologies? Did I miss something ridiculous?

edit1: I only vaguely remember both of those appearences, so can't remember if they were ridiculous.

edit2: Man, with all of this hate on Mat Ward, C.S. Goto must be looking at him as a gift from the gods of Geekdom, because Ward has become the go to guy for bad fluff examples. And nothing Ward has done is as egregious as Goto's many blasphemies. IMO

I think what Melissa means is that the Sons of Malice actually ate an Inquisitor because she didn't like their native custom of cannibalization. Some SoB may have been involved.

NELS1031 wrote:

Melissia wrote:There's worse things out there than Draigo to be sure. Sons of Malice comes to mind.

Whats wrong with the Sons of Malice?

"hurr, let's have a renegade chapter piss off the inquisition, utterly wipe out without any casualties a force of elite veteran Sisters [a force of CELESTIANS, imagine if they had done this with a force made entirely of all of a chapter's Sternguard?], then brutally sacrifice the (female) Inquisitor that went there, and escape into the warp!"

It reads like it was written by a misogynistic ten year old year old boy wanting to write a villain version of a mary sue "OMG THE BETS REGENAED CAHTPER EVAR!" and kill a bunch of them icky girls while he's at it.

Best - the models. I don't think anyone else does as well for less money. Mantic come close in quality, and they're my one to watch. The nicer staff are great. The paints are pretty good quality as well.

Worst - Cynical marketing. Almost pathological avoidance of customer focus (I mean, how much damage would an occasional sale or special offer really do?) The overly sales-focused staff.

The fluff is take it or leave it for me. Some stuff is really derivative, but not all.

Melissia wrote:"hurr, let's have a renegade chapter piss off the inquisition, utterly wipe out without any casualties a force of elite veteran Sisters [a force of CELESTIANS, imagine if they had done this with a force made entirely of all of a chapter's Sternguard?], then brutally sacrifice the (female) Inquisitor that went there, and escape into the warp!" .

You do realise that according to most of the fluff at least, Sisters are just female Imperial Guard in better armour?

Again, according to the fluff, a SM chapter would have absolutely no problem wiping them out without any casualties.

PhantomViper wrote:You do realise that according to most of the fluff at least, Sisters are just female Imperial Guard in better armour?

No, because I actually read the lore.

Ah, fair enough.

I actually remember it now. It was a couple paragraph story in the Index Astartes article on renegades.

Whatever happened to the time when Games Workshop was a parody of Fantasy and SciFi tropes? Orks were soccer hooligans, Chaos was grimdark evil badguys, and Ultramarines/BloodAngels were the heroes of heroes?

People started taking Games Workshop fluff too seriously. When that happened, apologetics popped up to fabricate fluff to Zap-a-Gap the plot holes.


At it's best, GW understands that its fluff is nonsensical yet still awesome. They have Skaven with giant rats and mouse wheels. They have Space Wolves riding Wolves from Space while wearing Wolf Talismans of Wolfy Wolf Wolf Claws. Blood Angels deep strike Land Raiders and have Bloodstrike Missiles of Sanguinary Blood Blood Blood Priestblood. It's funny and it's goofy. Wazdakka takes out a Titan. Eldar Spaceclowns dance against the Chaos God(dess) of Excess(ive dance).
Even when the fluff plays itself straight, it's still fantastic. Hive Fleet Leviathan's rerouting is great. The Emperor's Golden Throne is shutting down. Draco raided the Black Library. Flight of the Eisenstein.

Take it lightheartedly. 40k is supposed to be lighthearted grimdark taken to the 11th degree. Overanalyzing the fluff is a waste.

At it's worst, GW doesn't care much about the game aspect. It is indeed a hobby first and foremost, but there are some people that would like to enjoy a game sometimes. The competitive scene is laughably supported by the company and the rules are vague. GWAR is doing a great job with unofficial FAQs. However, people seem to see 40k as a "magic the gathering" in miniature form and pretend it is just as competitive. No. It's a casual game with loose rules for the sake of fun... according to GW. With vague rules, 1-year-late FAQs, no regard to internal balance, codex creep, 'Ard Boyz, and other factors, GW is sending mixed messages on how competitive the game should be.