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Lord Poison wrote:Now, creativity seems lost, the fluff takes itself way to seriously and I can't stand reading anything 40k (fantasy is okay, but is quickly becoming 40k with swords, its boring, everyone is always evil, I don't want anyone to win, they're all terrible people) I donno what GW's hatred against the clear good is, but it hardly makes for good reading to me (to me, other people might disagree but these are my thoughts).

That's the problem, the fluff tries to appear serious while being ridiculously dumb. The fluff has always been daft, with goofy characters and silly stuff. But it used to be more humorous. Now it's as far detached from reality as it always was, but it's just so grim and faux-adult. Oh yes, how can we make these guys appear mega tough, oh they can slaughter a million people on their own and not miss with a single bolt shell and then hack them to bits and put their heads on spikes. And then for the next 10 years each marine can take it in turns to pee on the severed heads of their enemies stopping to say a prayer between each one.

The stuff in the GK codex is childish and moronic. It's dumb and not in a fun way. It's so painfully obviously written for what some young teens would think is cool, is has the literary level of top trumps cards. Kanluwen makes a good go at a defence but it still doesn't convince.

__________

Anyway, as for Sisters of battle, yes they are a cut above Guardsmen. They wear power armour, use bolters and are trained to a higher level of umm... purity or whatever. They aren't superhuman like Space Marines but they are a cut above your casual infantry.

But there's another thing that annoys. They way they continually big up the Space Marines. Remember when they were just elite humans. They were superhuman yes, but in the true sense, they were still clearly human but with extra abilities - they were elite humans, but not ridiculously so. They were the 'Marines' of the future. They still did stuff like drink in bars when off duty. Not now when they spend all their time praying and reciting litanies or whatever GW thinks sounds kewl or 'well hard' to the kids buying the models.

Over the years they have been bigged up until they are all like Superman himself. They don't fly though. They can always take on ridiculous odds, they hardly die, they are stupidly huge and physically bloated as the art grows ever more exaggerated. Why can't they just be elite-human, instead of ludicrous comic book supermen. With massive bloated bodies and atrophied heads, who now nothing by kill stuff and pray to the emperor, they are hardly human at all, which is a bit sad really. The fluff is dumb, it's departed from the game so much that the stat lines just don't do Space Marines justice.

In theory you should hardly take any Marine casualties and every one you lose is one of only 1000 men. So frankly, if someone loses a huge Ork hoard to kill 50 Marines in a game, the real losers are the Marines. The Marines that are suppose to live for hundreds of years and are recruited so very slowly. They've just lost half a company of which they only have ten total, that's 5% of the chapter gone to kill some orks. And the Marines 'win'?? Perhaps if the fluff didn't big up how tough, unique and irreplaceable they are and how they all live for hundreds of years and spend most of their time praying to the emperor and polishing their bolt shells it wouldn't seem so stupid.

Lets see Marines having time off praying and killing and going down the pub like in the RT book. Scale back the so-called 'impressive' tough-guy fluff that constantly gets written and make the guardians of humanity actually seem human. People with actual lives outside killing orks and polishing bolt shells.

Howard A Treesong wrote:And then for the next 10 years each marine can take it in turns to pee on the severed heads of their enemies stopping to say a prayer between each one.

That sounds like a night out in Hinckley on a saturday night lol

Best - Customer service behind the scenes. I won the bitzbox raffle and won £50 worth of forgeworld goods. I got things I'd never normally purchase and that included flying rippers, which came with lots of broken legs. I phoned up and they took the batch code, didn't need an order number or the like and asked ME how many more legs I'd need. No pictures, no proof, just awesome service.

Worst - White Dwarf. It used to be so much more than the rag it is now. It's gone from gamer written to... well nothing.

marines are just, well idiotic nowadays
I used to think they were kind of cool, plain yes but still pretty cool-now they're just laughably absurd
40k is in a slump to me, literally half its races are marines of some kind (sisters are in the middle)
fantasy, as I said is just boring in fluff-i certainly hope they make bretonnia good again, instead of the dicks they are (like the empire) with 40k they can get away without a good, but fantasy...it doesn't work

I'm confused, why does the Marine codex need to talk about what they do on their downtime? That's what the Black Library is for (and that's what they've done in several novels).

I think the only Codex that does that is the one for the Eldar, and even then it's in passing.

CT GAMER wrote: This thread demonstrates the standard dissmissive level of disrespect that the SOB army has felt since day one of their creation. Not surprising in a game populated mostly by nerdy pre-pubescent boys, and heavy metal devotees etc. Why play "the girl army" when you can play angry faced super soldiers. Besides female models shouldn't be "nuns with guns" they should show more skin and have bigger tits...

Disdain for SOB is second only tp the forced disdain for Ultramarines that so many "internet cool guys" love to spout in threads like this...

WTF....where has this bile sprung from? Especially after your statement about me confusing the "lore" with the game. Think about your statement, the "disrespect" you groan about probably comes from the SoB effectivness on the gaming board rather than some masculine need to "keep the gals" down. Not to mention the owners of the I.P., how many stories are dedicated to SoB? How much effort has been put into advertising them, or promoting there greatness within the game or the lore?

I'd suggest the negativity you hurl at the gaming community is nothing more than a projection of your own inner thoughts on the "nuns with guns".

Personally I'd love to see females represented in my games as more than a sexual object, however, at the same time I find women sexually attractive, and have nothing against having a well balanced troup of warrior women who fire my imagination beyond the confines of the killing field.

Half this thread is about SoB lol..

GW at its best: Im putting a vote on their model quality, keeps improving and there are some pretty awesome models coming out.

GW at its worst: (edit, was going to say pricing but) The amount of time it takes to get an updated codex. Took how long for a new DE dex lol?

Xeriapt wrote:Half this thread is about SoB lol..

GW at its best: Im putting a vote on their model quality, keeps improving and there are some pretty awesome models coming out.

GW at its worst: Probably their pricing, tis getting rediculous. Also making it alot more difficult to buy their products from overseas, that plastic crack will cost you an arm and a leg in Aus.

QFT. Also everyone chill out on the SoB, or go make your own thread about it. Getting a bit ridiculous.

I like the sisters, though felt their models were quite static

So from reading this thread I have come up with a list of factions discussed in terms of power:

1. Orks
2. Space Marines
3. SoB

That look good?

Back on topic, GW at its best - The models, by a long shot. Gorgeous.
GW at its worst - I suppose exorbitant price gouging. The models are great, but maybe not thaaat good.

CT GAMER wrote:
Sisters have excellent military training that is on par with Storm troopers and other elite Imperials along with some of the most powerful armor and weaponry given to infantry in the Imperium.

This is an assumption. We do not know what the Sororitas receive in the way of actual military training, outside of it's done at the Schola Progenium and includes a lot of indoctrination in the Ecclesiarchal Cult with some crosstraining in the Stormtrooper's regimen.

Best guess, on my part, is the Stormtroopers and Commissars receive similar training while the Sisters get very different training as its foundations. We have a few mentions of Commissars and Stormtrooper cadets being put in with veteran regiments before they're fully inducted into their respective service, but nothing of the sort is really put out there for the Sisters.

I've got my own theory as to what we'll see the Sisters becoming, namely them becoming symbols of the Imperium much like the Astartes are.
The worth of the Astartes isn't simply their superb performance in most forms of warfare.
It's their worth as a symbol of the Imperium triumphant, of Mankind at its purest(Yes Melissia, I recognize the irony of that statement) beating back the beasts of the void.
While the Astartes operating in an area or showing up can turn the tide of a war by a simple morale boost("The Astartes are here! Push them back!" is one of the lines you first hear in Space Marine when you encounter the Guard for the first time), the Sororitas turn the tide by reminding the populace and its defenders that the Emperor protects, and that He's always watching.

On top of that they can willingly perform miracles with the power of their religious fervor, which combined with their weaponry and training makes them easily one of the most powerful individual warriors in the Imperium.

Again, this is an assumption. Miracles do occur for them, and whether they're willingly manifesting them or they're simply superhuman feats of arms and discipline is not explained.
I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but I think a Guardsman bayoneting an Ork while his arm is severed is pretty miraculous. It doesn't mean he did it through simple religious fervor.

I would put them second behind Space marines, though the gap between them is substantial as in the fluff even a standard marine is a god of war far more powerful then what we see on the tabletop.

I don't think I would.
Call me biased if you want, but the Sisters are constantly touted as being a force which is best deployed after the wars are done.
They're essential in the aftermath, rooting out heretics, traitors, or devotees of the Ruinous Power but them being there during a war makes no real discernible difference.
We don't have any real lore that shows the Sisters swooping in to grab victory for the Imperium out of the jaws of defeat like the Astartes or Guard do. Does that necessarily mean they're not skilled fighters or that they're useless in a fight? Of course not. It simply means it's not what they're (presumably) trained for. You wouldn't use Stormtroopers to hold the line, so why would you use Sisters of Battle to launch a siege?

Will we see the big issue of "what the hell are the Sisters there for?" resolved in the upcoming Sisters of Battle codex? Hopefully. If anyone can do it, I'd think that Phil Kelly could.

Like I said though, I've always seen the Sisters as being more of a "morale booster". And not in a dirty way.

Disdain for SOB is second only t the forced disdain for Ultramarines that so many "internet cool guys" love to spout in threads like this...

I have disdain for the fact that Sisters have no defined role. They're subpar "Jacks of All Trades", with mastery in only the skill of "Dying as the Plot Demands".

Clamiing Sisters are a jack of all trades faction is a bit off the mark.

At the moment, they have no MBT, no artillery, no sane walkers, etc. They're essentially a mechanized infantry force with a tank hunter as support and a bunch of wacky Ecclesiarchy junk tossed in for the lulz.

I did say they were a "subpar Jacks of all Trades", Mel.

Like I said though, I've always seen the Sisters as being more of a "morale booster". And not in a dirty way.

Lol, SoB, the morale boosters of 40k.

Xeriapt wrote:

Like I said though, I've always seen the Sisters as being more of a "morale booster". And not in a dirty way.

Lol, SoB, the morale boosters of 40k.

Do cheerleaders count as dirty?

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Xeriapt wrote:

Like I said though, I've always seen the Sisters as being more of a "morale booster". And not in a dirty way.

Lol, SoB, the morale boosters of 40k.

Do cheerleaders count as dirty?

are you two saying SoB are the 40k cheerleaders of the imperium?

Guess I should clarify a bit more.

Think of the "Elites" from the Halo universe as being similar to the role the Sororitas occupy.

They're Warrior-Priestesses, who inspire everyone around them to greater feats of valor knowing that the eyes of their God-Emperor is upon them.

Height of GW



Everything afterwords is in decline.

What I like: Some of the models are great, as is some of the fluff.

What I dislike: Pricing, keeping everything secret to the point of insanity, the "GW is the Hobby", fanboy/hater flame wars

Kanluwen wrote:I'm confused, why does the Marine codex need to talk about what they do on their downtime? That's what the Black Library is for (and that's what they've done in several novels).

I think the only Codex that does that is the one for the Eldar, and even then it's in passing.

I think you are rather missing the wider point to nitpick.

DrownedRat117 wrote:@Kanluwen

LOL.

Are you seriously backing Matt Ward????

Once you get over the internet groupthink zombie mentality, you might realize that now all Ward's fluff is as bad as people assume from internet raging.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I'm confused, why does the Marine codex need to talk about what they do on their downtime? That's what the Black Library is for (and that's what they've done in several novels).

I think the only Codex that does that is the one for the Eldar, and even then it's in passing.

I think you are rather missing the wider point to nitpick.

I'm really not. You were talking about how you want it to be like RT. Marines haven't been like RT Marines since 2nd edition.

As for your statement about "they are hardly human at all"...well, they haven't been that since they became Astartes either.

Best: Planetstrike and Cities of Death products

Worst: Finecast (Thai customers called this product 'Failcast')

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Literally the second reply in the thread and he had his shields up at maximum. No chance for even anyone to get a word in.

It's a pet peeve subject and it gets brought up a lot, generally with incorrect information to support it. Sorry HBMC..

He's right. The name of the thread was "GW at it's best /GW at it's worst" and by literally then second post, you turned it into "GW at it's best / Kan attacks everyone else who disagrees". You said "sorry" and then immediately continued to engage in the same behavior.

Nothing else to say, don't feel like having my opinion immediately belittled by the guys who have a "PEOPLE SAID SOMETHING BAD ABOUT GWS" RSS feed running.

Ouze wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Literally the second reply in the thread and he had his shields up at maximum. No chance for even anyone to get a word in.

It's a pet peeve subject and it gets brought up a lot, generally with incorrect information to support it. Sorry HBMC..

He's right. The name of the thread was "GW at it's best /GW at it's worst" and by literally then second post, you turned it into "GW at it's best / Kan attacks everyone else who disagrees". You said "sorry" and then immediately continued to engage in the same behavior.

No, I really didn't turn it into that. If you choose to believe that, it's fine. I "attacked" someone who hasn't even read the bloody fluff he's holding up as an example of GW being "terrible". This is not an isolated incident where these particular pieces are complained about, and in almost any case you see them being bandied about you'll find that the people are going off what they've read or heard second-hand from other people.

Nothing else to say, don't feel like having my opinion immediately belittled by the guys who have a "PEOPLE SAID SOMETHING BAD ABOUT GWS" RSS feed running.

Then I'll say something bad about GW, just for you Ouze.
The Bad
-Finecast has been an unacceptable failure, so far. It has a lot of potential but is being plagued with absurd amounts of problems. From things like just shoddy QA(My Vlad Von Carstein should not have been missing a hand) to the recent separation of Creed and Kell to being two models on their own, it's bothersome and worrying. I'm trying my best to be a proponent of it but it's being far too hit or miss and is illustrating the fact that resin and metal casting are not the same by any means.
-White Dwarf's printing quality has been steadily slipping. The two issues with the SoB codex within have the ink actually running along the spine of the WD. That's not good, and is quite ridiculous to boot.
-The staggering of some of these waves is completely illogical. As an example: If we are in fact seeing a new Guard wave within the next year, it's two years too late for many of us. The Hydra is stupid easy to convert, and it's not like you can't go to FW if you don't like the result of the ADL Hydra kits. As another example: the Tyranid big beasties want to say what's up, but we can't reach them for comment.
-The glaring differences in writing styles of the codex authors is unacceptable. Ward, while not Shakespeare by any means when it comes to writing fluff, at least understands the concept of "versatility" and "balance" when it comes to the game. Kelly has a grasp of it, as we saw evidenced in Dark Eldar, but is inconsistent with how he does it. Cruddace wouldn't know what the terms meant if you beat him upside the head with the terms painted on 2x4s.
The "Meh"
-The "secrecy" that everyone likes to point at is a kind of wash for me. I'm kind of undecided on this point. I personally dislike the week or so "preview" time, but I do understand that no matter what GW did(whether they instituted month advance sneak peeks, published a release schedule with guesstimated timeframes or whatnot) there'd be complaints because someone felt it was the "Wrong Way" to do it.
-Storm of Chaos. It's nice and all that they did a "campaign", but it was so bloody useless in terms of a "campaign" that they might as well have just used it as the basis of an online leaderboard for WHFB leagues. There was no overarching story, there was nothing at all that makes up a "campaign". To use the term "campaign" there was about as useful as a movie about alien abductees putting the tagline "Based on a True Story" on it. We all know it's not, so you might as well can the razzle dazzle and make it worthwhile.

Happy?

Kanluwen wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Literally the second reply in the thread and he had his shields up at maximum. No chance for even anyone to get a word in.

It's a pet peeve subject and it gets brought up a lot, generally with incorrect information to support it. Sorry HBMC..

He's right. The name of the thread was "GW at it's best /GW at it's worst" and by literally then second post, you turned it into "GW at it's best / Kan attacks everyone else who disagrees". You said "sorry" and then immediately continued to engage in the same behavior.

No, I really didn't turn it into that. If you choose to believe that, it's fine. I "attacked" someone who hasn't even read the bloody fluff he's holding up as an example of GW being "terrible". This is not an isolated incident where these particular pieces are complained about, and in almost any case you see them being bandied about you'll find that the people are going off what they've read or heard second-hand from other people.

No, you really did. Every thread I see you in, all you do is attack and ridicule people for their opinions. Maybe you should take a break, and come back when you can handle differing opinions.

Back on topic, I'm still pretty new, so I don't have any real insight on GW as a whole, but I can say I don't think they've made any real faux pas in recent years; "Even bad press is good press" is something to consider.

Kanluwen wrote:Happy?

No.

The worst you can say about White Dwarf is that the ink comes off? Seriously?

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Happy?

No.

The worst you can say about White Dwarf is that the ink comes off? Seriously?

Spoiler:

Oh I see, it's rubs off on your arse, right? I can see how that's a problem.

How would the ink rub off on your arse?.....unless, of course, you were using it for toilet paper......of course, if you were going to do that, can I suggest the Tau Codex would be longer lasting and much softer on that delicate crease of release.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Happy?

No.

The worst you can say about White Dwarf is that the ink comes off? Seriously?

Spoiler:

Oh I see, it's rubs off on your arse, right? I can see how that's a problem.

Clever.

I've been under no illusions what White Dwarf is since I started getting into GW stuff, but I've still got issues from when I first started that are in almost pristine condition.

It's an advertising medium. It's no different than No Quarter or Wargaming Illustrated, the only difference is that people cut Privateer Press slack because they put in what they deem to be "better painting articles"(although many of the ones that I saw when the company first started with NQ #1-4 are on par with the WD articles of the time. Eh.) and because it's not GW.

If you want actual hobby content, painting improving tips and the like--I'd suggest Fine Scale Modeler, but wait even that is full of ads(the first 10 or so pages are ads, as are the last 10) and reviews of upcoming kits take center stage.
Magazines are a dying medium when it comes to a lot of this hobby related stuff, and it's evident anywhere you look. Books like Osprey's Masterclass and the web getting insight from others are the way to go if you want to genuinely up your game.

Why do you keep writing off people who don't like the fluff by presuming they haven't read it? Do you know for sure that Howard Treesong has not read it in a FLGS or whatever? Do you know this, for sure? Or was it just a way of invalidating his opinion?