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Without applying timelines currently GW is:
At it's best: digital sculpting and thier new injection molding machines has taken GW to the next level. Latest releases are PACKED with parts and Those parts are fantastically detailed. The new codexes DWARF the older ones, sure some really stupid gak has slipped into some but they are expansive in both fluff and substance.
At it's worse: The constant price increases, a scheduled annual increase is not due to any real business pressure it's to indoctrinate the customers to accept more in the future.
Failcast. If they were going to roll out a replacement to metal models it should have been tested and properly QAed before hyped and foisted upon us. That completely ignores the fact that metal model FEEL like they are worth more in the hand it's a tactile thing. They are not easy to convert because they are supposed to have permenance.

And now this:

Melissia wrote:
Are you seriously going to argue that there's only two levels of skill, human and astartes?

If so, I'm going to ignore you.

Yes I am in fact going to argue that there are only two skill levels between unaugmented humans and superhuman Astartes. There is a LIMIT to the level a human being can be trained to. That limit is so far below what an Astartes is minimally capable of that there is a gap between the two. SoB are more skilled than Guardsmen, but the Schola Progenium does not enable unaugmented humans to approach the level of training and ability given by pycho hypnosis, genetic augmentation, and centuries of experience. Sorry your SoB are still just ladies in power armor, not IG but not approaching SM at all.

AustonT wrote:Yes I am in fact going to argue that there are only two skill levels between unaugmented humans and superhuman Astartes. There is a LIMIT to the level a human being can be trained to. That limit is so far below what an Astartes is minimally capable of that there is a gap between the two. SoB are more skilled than Guardsmen, but the Schola Progenium does not enable unaugmented humans to approach the level of training and ability given by pycho hypnosis, genetic augmentation, and centuries of experience. Sorry your SoB are still just ladies in power armor, not IG but not approaching SM at all.

The fluff is full of regular humans going toe to toe with chaos marines and through a combination of skill and fortune beating them. Cain is a great example of this as he comes up against renegade marines on a number of occasions, and he is from the SP.

And there is a significant difference between a regular human who is in the regular armed forces and someone from the SP. Just as there is a significant difference between soldiers in the majority of PDF's and the IG proper.

Ciaphus Cain is a great example of entertainment fiction licensed by GW. It sits right next to the Ultramarines movie for operability in the abilities of the heroes vs villains in 40k.

AustonT wrote:Ciaphus Cain is a great example of entertainment fiction licensed by GW. It sits right next to the Ultramarines movie for operability in the abilities of the heroes vs villains in 40k.

And yet it is official 40K fiction. I'm not going to comment on how it fits in with the tabletop game, codex fluff, etc because it is a different medium, written for a different purpose and yet it exists side by side with the codexes, rule books, other BL books, other GW fiction etc, etc.

You can say that you will only accept codexes and the rule book as "canon", but even there you have massively differing power levels between the fiction, the rules, and the fiction within other codexes.

One thing that I will say is that a D6 system like that used in 40K is not subtle enough to accurately underpin the variety of stats that you would encounter in the 40K universe. You have to range from a greater daemon who eats planets for breakfast, and a grot to barely manages to make it through the day without getting sat on and/or eaten.

Entertainment fiction. As are all BL, you may apply them as canon at your own discretion. I do not. Here is a short list of reasons why:

backflipping Terminators
Space Marines carrying multilasers as their default wargear
average Marine height switching between 7 and 11 feet every other week
Sisters of Battle drinking alcohol, playing cards and taking lovers because of boredom
D-cannons suddenly firing projectiles
PDF troopers carrying sniper boltguns
lasguns capable of killing a Dreadnought
Eldar falling in love with Space Marines
Terminator Sergeants walking into battle with a missile launcher strapped to their back

Please continue to convince me that standard humans are equitable to purpose built killing machines.

AustonT wrote:Entertainment fiction. As are all BL, you may apply them as canon at your own discretion. I do not. Here is a short list of reasons why:

backflipping Terminators
Space Marines carrying multilasers as their default wargear
average Marine height switching between 7 and 11 feet every other week
Sisters of Battle drinking alcohol, playing cards and taking lovers because of boredom
D-cannons suddenly firing projectiles
PDF troopers carrying sniper boltguns
lasguns capable of killing a Dreadnought
Eldar falling in love with Space Marines
Terminator Sergeants walking into battle with a missile launcher strapped to their back

Please continue to convince me that standard humans are equitable to purpose built killing machines.

He's got a point.

AustonT wrote:Entertainment fiction. As are all BL, you may apply them as canon at your own discretion. I do not. Here is a short list of reasons why:

backflipping Terminators
Space Marines carrying multilasers as their default wargear
average Marine height switching between 7 and 11 feet every other week
Sisters of Battle drinking alcohol, playing cards and taking lovers because of boredom
D-cannons suddenly firing projectiles
PDF troopers carrying sniper boltguns
lasguns capable of killing a Dreadnought
Eldar falling in love with Space Marines
Terminator Sergeants walking into battle with a missile launcher strapped to their back

Please continue to convince me that standard humans are equitable to purpose built killing machines.

You kind of missed the point. However you try to define canon - only using table top rules, codex/rule book fluff, general fluff, BL books, etc, you will get contradictions and absurdities. Hell, contrasting the tabletop rules from different editions throws up all sorts of weird things that don't fit in with the "current" rules/fluff (however you choose to define canon fluff).

The point isn't "you should accept all these sources", the point is that GW have not produced an airtight universe - any set of sources you want to choose, even your most favorite source which you love the bestest can be contradicted by other, equally valid sources. Your codex says that a single Space Marine can wade through entire armies? My codex shows how a small force of my race ambushed and killed a large SM force. Your book says that the IG are sent to die on the wire by the millions, while mine says that an IG team took on an entire death world and won.

In a universe as large and diverse as that of 40K there is bound to be huge variation, even excepting various fluff boners that certain authors seem to have.

Brother SRM wrote:I hate that this became another Mat Ward hate thread.

Perhaps a lot of what some people dislike about GW right now has to do with the fluff and rules written by Mr. Ward. In a thread asking for one's opinion about what is best/worst about GW, why question what it is that some people dislike. It seems that there are a large number of posters here that don't like Mr. Ward's work. So be it.

Personally, I can get past some of the silly fluff he wrote into the GK codex, and the BA/Necrons incident. I find GW was at their absolute worst during the short span of time that they released all the Finecast fanfare, complete with price gouging, and took actions to try and force their Southern Hemisphere customers to buy locally, at stupidly jacked up prices.

didn't he write fantasy's rules? I mean a lot of people hate that game now
and he does a crappy job at any codex he seems not to like (eg orcs and goblins, I donno if he wrote tomb kings)
he's just a terrible writer rules and fluff

It's kind of ironic that GW are currently at their best in terms of miniature production (aside from the odd stinker that keeps slipping out), but at their worst in terms of being an evil corporate monster.

AustonT wrote:
Terminator Sergeants walking into battle with a missile launcher strapped to their back

Isn't that what a CML is?

The man pack shoulder launched version, in addition to the storm bolter.

AustonT wrote:The man pack shoulder launched version, in addition to the storm bolter.

So...not a CML? Just the generic, missile launcher?
That's not right...

Also, srsly? Termy acrobats? How is that even possible?

Oh the infamous C S Goto books, fortunately those are things I definitely haven't read.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

AustonT wrote:The man pack shoulder launched version, in addition to the storm bolter.

So...not a CML? Just the generic, missile launcher?
That's not right...

Also, srsly? Termy acrobats? How is that even possible?

The relevant information is contained, albeit a little offensively, here.
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/C.S.Goto
CS Goto is only the most rampant offender in the BLs litany of licensed fan fiction. James Swallow pulling up a close second,

I have to agree with msot of the posters here:
GW's fluff (wierd inconsistencies aside) is some of the best and most in-depth/immersive I've read in a long, long time. It dwarfs (squats?) fluff from the likes of competing wargames in many cases imo, and is almost always a fun and entertaining read.

In addition, GW's recent models have a far better good-model-to-crap ratio than in the past, and their models usually look on par with stuff like Reaper minis and PP. The degree of detail and customisability is awesome, and hard to find elsewhere.

However, I also agree with the bad:
The pricing of GW models, along with their avalanche of marketing trainwrecks (Really hyped specialist game? Limited Edition. Amazing IP? Very few games, especially for Fantasy and the specialist games. Completely untested model-casting technique? It's the second coming of Christ himself!), is probably my biggest peeve. Add into this the various shenanigans like the oversea embargo and pulling of support from tournaments, and this is a major issue for me.

Next most annoying is the frankenstein's monster of a ruleset both fantasy and 40K are lumbering along as. Again, I suspect this is heavily influenced by GW marketing, to release one at a time instead of doing a nice clean rehaul of the rules/models. However, while I could stand a bit of power creep, the degree of codex power disparaity, especially comparing new to old codexes (Space Wolves and Necrons, anyone?), is completely unnacceptable. If one codex has nearly a dozen models that are rarely/never used, while another codex could take any model in the list and be competitive, something is terribly wrong.

I could stand craptastic rules if the models were cheap, or expensive models if they were for a very well executed ruleset, but as is two wrongs don't make a right for me....

Flashman wrote:It's kind of ironic that GW are currently at their best in terms of miniature production (aside from the odd stinker that keeps slipping out), but at their worst in terms of being an evil corporate monster.

They've been "at their worst in terms of being an evil corporate monster" for 20 years

GW bashing and off topic SOB fluff flames aside.

Best: Progression of model design

Worst: Ending the Bits and Historic Model archives.

Now I return you to your regular GW hate fest and Mat Ward flame fight.

+1 to ending the bits ordering system.

A pretty entertaining (although lengthy) blog post regarding this kind of discussion, is well worth a read:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/09/is-imperium-metaphor-for-games-workshop.html?showComment=1316486593299#c4827929326097010747

Pacific wrote:A pretty entertaining (although lengthy) blog post regarding this kind of discussion, is well worth a read:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/09/is-imperium-metaphor-for-games-workshop.html?showComment=1316486593299#c4827929326097010747

Excellent article.

things i like about GW, the mini's are still my favorites of any around, and i still love the fluff, i know alot of people point out things like the Draigo stuff but i've always looked at those sorts of things as we're reading the history as you would be taught it say in school, so his exploits have more become legends and like most legends they're blown out of proportion. Everyone can like or dislike things for their own reason of course.

Things i dont like about GW, well the prices, especially in aus they're just stupid, and i dont really like the in your face way of selling they have in their stores, but thats something i dont like about alot of places and rememdy that by buying over the interwebernets or at a local gaming store instead

That’s a well written article. I loved the parallel of the Internet being Chaos. All of the analogies used in the article are extremely clever.

I agree. The ironic similarities are both entertaining and fairly accurate. I especially like the different aspects of the Chaos Gods and their influences on GW's success.

Worglock wrote:
Worst: Ending the Bits and Historic Model archives.

This was actually sensible for GW to do. It's a lot easier to categorize things into "bitz packs" (which are too infrequently released) than it is to have a bunch of dudes in a backroom categorizing the millions of bits GW has. It sucks, but it sounds like a good way to trim some fat, financially. It does reek of the typical "GW evil empire" stuff that's been happening more over the last 5 years or so, but I can see why they did it, unlike some of their other decisions.

As for the CS Goto stuff, he doesn't write for Black Library anymore. He was at least capable of making fun of himself a bit: http://www.csgoto.com/csgotopositions.html but I don't think he'll be writing anything else for Black Library again. The last book he wrote was in 2007, and one of his short stories appears in a 2010 compilation but I think that's about it. I'd consider the actual Dawn of War games canon rather than the very silly novels based on them.

that article was a fantastic read

Brother SRM wrote:This was actually sensible for GW to do.

To a point.

When people decry the lack of bitz service, I'm often very quick to point out that the old bitz service was both inefficient and a liability. Inventory = space, space = money. More than that, offering every metal component separately is a money drain, as spin-casting involves casting everything on that particular mould. So if, for example, there is one part of a full kit that is very popular, but no one ever orders the other parts, you end up with tons of spare parts laying around in inventory, and again, inventory = space, space = money.

But, when I point that out, I also point out that GW's replacement bitz service is about as useless as it can be. Rather than finding the healthy middle ground they instead opted to throw the baby out with the bath water and start a clunky and counter-intuitive system that clearly has no basis in market research. The lack of plastic sprues for sale is abominable, and their 'bitz packs' are often quite bad.

The old bitz service was unwieldy, inefficient and costly. The new bitz service is incomplete, rigid and useless.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
The old bitz service was unwieldy, inefficient and costly. The new bitz service is incomplete, rigid and useless.

Oh, I'm completely in agreement with you here. They haven't done enough to bridge the gap between old and new and find a comfortable middleground. They started doing things right with the battlewagon deffrolla sprue then just abandoned that idea outright, which is a huge bummer. Selling individual sprues would be lovely, as would a more robust bitz range like what they've been trying to do.

At its best - GW has created a mythos all its own. With every author contributing, for good or bad, to a living, breathing world that has lasted over decades of growth. Also, DoW. Some great models that really set the standard of what great models should look like.

At its worse - Settings that can not be taken in bite size chunks for us in anything other then mini wargaming. A property that, without extensive research of the background, has a hard time appealing to different demographics outside of wargamers.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:This was actually sensible for GW to do.

To a point.

When people decry the lack of bitz service, I'm often very quick to point out that the old bitz service was both inefficient and a liability. Inventory = space, space = money. More than that, offering every metal component separately is a money drain, as spin-casting involves casting everything on that particular mould. So if, for example, there is one part of a full kit that is very popular, but no one ever orders the other parts, you end up with tons of spare parts laying around in inventory, and again, inventory = space, space = money.

But, when I point that out, I also point out that GW's replacement bitz service is about as useless as it can be. Rather than finding the healthy middle ground they instead opted to throw the baby out with the bath water and start a clunky and counter-intuitive system that clearly has no basis in market research. The lack of plastic sprues for sale is abominable, and their 'bitz packs' are often quite bad.

The old bitz service was unwieldy, inefficient and costly. The new bitz service is incomplete, rigid and useless.

Indeed. In theory the new system *should* be good if GW actually bothered to keep it up to date and have bitz people actually want. It started off well, with a lot of things (e.g. the Sonic Weapons pack) remarkably cheaper than if bought individually from the previous system. But being GW, they stick rigidly to the STC (Pacific, that article was awesome BTW) and it just goes nowhere.

Grimtuff wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:This was actually sensible for GW to do.

To a point.

When people decry the lack of bitz service, I'm often very quick to point out that the old bitz service was both inefficient and a liability. Inventory = space, space = money. More than that, offering every metal component separately is a money drain, as spin-casting involves casting everything on that particular mould. So if, for example, there is one part of a full kit that is very popular, but no one ever orders the other parts, you end up with tons of spare parts laying around in inventory, and again, inventory = space, space = money.

But, when I point that out, I also point out that GW's replacement bitz service is about as useless as it can be. Rather than finding the healthy middle ground they instead opted to throw the baby out with the bath water and start a clunky and counter-intuitive system that clearly has no basis in market research. The lack of plastic sprues for sale is abominable, and their 'bitz packs' are often quite bad.

The old bitz service was unwieldy, inefficient and costly. The new bitz service is incomplete, rigid and useless.

Indeed. In theory the new system *should* be good if GW actually bothered to keep it up to date and have bitz people actually want. It started off well, with a lot of things (e.g. the Sonic Weapons pack) remarkably cheaper than if bought individually from the previous system. But being GW, they stick rigidly to the STC (Pacific, that article was awesome BTW) and it just goes nowhere.

I'm perplexed as to why people moan about a bitz service. There are numerous avenues available. That's enterprise.

I get bitz off 3 different websites and ebay. What is the big problem? GW don't have to feth about with bitz, and enterprising fellows make money selling bitz.