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Brother SRM wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
The old bitz service was unwieldy, inefficient and costly. The new bitz service is incomplete, rigid and useless.

Oh, I'm completely in agreement with you here. They haven't done enough to bridge the gap between old and new and find a comfortable middleground. They started doing things right with the battlewagon deffrolla sprue then just abandoned that idea outright, which is a huge bummer. Selling individual sprues would be lovely, as would a more robust bitz range like what they've been trying to do.

I'd be happy if they opened their old catalogues to selling complete figures. At the moment you can order almost nothing, they throw us the very occasional bone like some chaas warriors and they charge insane prices for these vintage collectors figures.

I don't expect the old bits service. The fact you could order 20 copies of Nagash's left arm is just stupid. But if they offered complete figures, that would be okay. But they don't, they offer almost nothing.

Of course, with the way that they have done away with metal and only cast in finecost requires they retrofit the moulds. And they are never going to do that for all those old moulds and as they don't buy in the metal, well I guess any possibility of the older figuers being available has just died.

Unless of course they come up with some nonsense that having the older figure in metal is part of the 'vintage feel'. No doubt for this privilege they would charge even MORE than finecost. Yeah that sounds about right, get rid of metal, price increase. Bring back metal, another price increase.

mattyrm wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:This was actually sensible for GW to do.

To a point.

When people decry the lack of bitz service, I'm often very quick to point out that the old bitz service was both inefficient and a liability. Inventory = space, space = money. More than that, offering every metal component separately is a money drain, as spin-casting involves casting everything on that particular mould. So if, for example, there is one part of a full kit that is very popular, but no one ever orders the other parts, you end up with tons of spare parts laying around in inventory, and again, inventory = space, space = money.

But, when I point that out, I also point out that GW's replacement bitz service is about as useless as it can be. Rather than finding the healthy middle ground they instead opted to throw the baby out with the bath water and start a clunky and counter-intuitive system that clearly has no basis in market research. The lack of plastic sprues for sale is abominable, and their 'bitz packs' are often quite bad.

The old bitz service was unwieldy, inefficient and costly. The new bitz service is incomplete, rigid and useless.

Indeed. In theory the new system *should* be good if GW actually bothered to keep it up to date and have bitz people actually want. It started off well, with a lot of things (e.g. the Sonic Weapons pack) remarkably cheaper than if bought individually from the previous system. But being GW, they stick rigidly to the STC (Pacific, that article was awesome BTW) and it just goes nowhere.

I'm perplexed as to why people moan about a bitz service. There are numerous avenues available. That's enterprise.

I get bitz off 3 different websites and ebay. What is the big problem? GW don't have to feth about with bitz, and enterprising fellows make money selling bitz.

We're talking about metal bits, not random bits from sprues, which were not present under the old system either. To take a somewhat personal example, if they separated this piss poor excuse for a box by each god, say like as individuals or 5 each, I would do a TS army in a heartbeat. In. A. Heartbeat. As that Rubric marine is gorgeous.

Plastic bits separate from the sprues are not what is being talked about. That was an untapped resource that GW will not (or cannot?) capitalize on.

Ah ok, yeah that makes sense.. I like the TS marines too.

Ill go back to shutting the feth up.

mattyrm wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:This was actually sensible for GW to do.

To a point.

When people decry the lack of bitz service, I'm often very quick to point out that the old bitz service was both inefficient and a liability. Inventory = space, space = money. More than that, offering every metal component separately is a money drain, as spin-casting involves casting everything on that particular mould. So if, for example, there is one part of a full kit that is very popular, but no one ever orders the other parts, you end up with tons of spare parts laying around in inventory, and again, inventory = space, space = money.

But, when I point that out, I also point out that GW's replacement bitz service is about as useless as it can be. Rather than finding the healthy middle ground they instead opted to throw the baby out with the bath water and start a clunky and counter-intuitive system that clearly has no basis in market research. The lack of plastic sprues for sale is abominable, and their 'bitz packs' are often quite bad.

The old bitz service was unwieldy, inefficient and costly. The new bitz service is incomplete, rigid and useless.

Indeed. In theory the new system *should* be good if GW actually bothered to keep it up to date and have bitz people actually want. It started off well, with a lot of things (e.g. the Sonic Weapons pack) remarkably cheaper than if bought individually from the previous system. But being GW, they stick rigidly to the STC (Pacific, that article was awesome BTW) and it just goes nowhere.

I'm perplexed as to why people moan about a bitz service. There are numerous avenues available. That's enterprise.

I get bitz off 3 different websites and ebay. What is the big problem? GW don't have to feth about with bitz, and enterprising fellows make money selling bitz.

You know what? You're right point me to the bits site where I can order 10 of Dantes jump pack.

Brother SRM wrote:

Worglock wrote:
Worst: Ending the Bits and Historic Model archives.

This was actually sensible for GW to do. It's a lot easier to categorize things into "bitz packs" (which are too infrequently released) than it is to have a bunch of dudes in a backroom categorizing the millions of bits GW has. It sucks, but it sounds like a good way to trim some fat, financially. It does reek of the typical "GW evil empire" stuff that's been happening more over the last 5 years or so, but I can see why they did it, unlike some of their other decisions.

Not really. The fact that they couldn't make a buck off of it shows how poorly managed it was. So they threw the whole thing out instead of fixing it. Also, just as a point of note, ending the system that was the Bitz Service also ended the system that allowed them to be able to replace an individual part instead of sending out an entire kit.

I will also point out that they could still be making pretty ludicrous sums of money off of things like the old Diaznettes and the Realm of Chaos era things that lots of people would happily order directly from GW (and even wait for it to be cast on demand) but instead, they're forced to trawl eBay and the second hand market constantly or resort to Chinese recasters who have no qualms about continuing a model archive.

The Bitz and Historic Archive could have been fixed/rescued.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
The old bitz service was unwieldy, inefficient and costly. The new bitz service is incomplete, rigid and useless.

Oh, I'm completely in agreement with you here. They haven't done enough to bridge the gap between old and new and find a comfortable middleground. They started doing things right with the battlewagon deffrolla sprue then just abandoned that idea outright, which is a huge bummer. Selling individual sprues would be lovely, as would a more robust bitz range like what they've been trying to do.

I'd be happy if they opened their old catalogues to selling complete figures. At the moment you can order almost nothing, they throw us the very occasional bone like some chaas warriors and they charge insane prices for these vintage collectors figures.

I don't expect the old bits service. The fact you could order 20 copies of Nagash's left arm is just stupid. But if they offered complete figures, that would be okay. But they don't, they offer almost nothing.

Of course, with the way that they have done away with metal and only cast in finecost requires they retrofit the moulds. And they are never going to do that for all those old moulds and as they don't buy in the metal, well I guess any possibility of the older figuers being available has just died.

Unless of course they come up with some nonsense that having the older figure in metal is part of the 'vintage feel'. No doubt for this privilege they would charge even MORE than finecost. Yeah that sounds about right, get rid of metal, price increase. Bring back metal, another price increase.

You know what? I don't care about the price if they brought back the old http://solegends.com/citcat912/c20268rcchaoswarr.htm Chaos Warriors. Even if it was under a system of "There are X packs of Y different guys because that's how the mold is set up." Because I'd still buy 3 or 4 packs of each and it would still be cheaper than trying to get them off of eBay.

Worglock wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Worglock wrote:
Worst: Ending the Bits and Historic Model archives.

This was actually sensible for GW to do. It's a lot easier to categorize things into "bitz packs" (which are too infrequently released) than it is to have a bunch of dudes in a backroom categorizing the millions of bits GW has. It sucks, but it sounds like a good way to trim some fat, financially. It does reek of the typical "GW evil empire" stuff that's been happening more over the last 5 years or so, but I can see why they did it, unlike some of their other decisions.

Not really. The fact that they couldn't make a buck off of it shows how poorly managed it was. So they threw the whole thing out instead of fixing it. Also, just as a point of note, ending the system that was the Bitz Service also ended the system that allowed them to be able to replace an individual part instead of sending out an entire kit.

I will also point out that they could still be making pretty ludicrous sums of money off of things like the old Diaznettes and the Realm of Chaos era things that lots of people would happily order directly from GW (and even wait for it to be cast on demand) but instead, they're forced to trawl eBay and the second hand market constantly or resort to Chinese recasters who have no qualms about continuing a model archive.

The Bitz and Historic Archive could have been fixed/rescued.

Since I'm a hobbyist that loves to convert things I could go to GW and get anything I want at a reasonable price with the old method. With their recent method, it is not possible for me to bitz orders at a reasonable price. This flawed bitz order system started a cottage industry of people selling bitz though other channels such as Ebay.. The price of bitz has gone up over the years and will continue to go up to what the market will bare.


I agree with what Worglock stated. GW could have revamped their Bitz department, but the company IMHO chose the cheapest way out of the situation.

The Best...hmmm...

1. The model of the Stompa.
2. 1st edition Epic
3. Space Hulk
4. Tyranid Attack
5. The playstation edition of Space Hulk Vengence of the Blood Angels.
6. The RT era Boxed sets of vehicles, figures, and rulebooks and suppliments. (Relms of Chaos/ Lost and the Damned was my favorite, hands down. Freebooterz was my second favorite.)
7. Gorkamorka
8. 1st edition Necromunda
9. a number of thier figures are great.( Across all of thier ranges, and at different times, and different game systems.)
10. The new RPG books give the indepth information that you wouldn't expect in other such games. HAnds down FF has done the whole 40K mythos justice not equal to how GW is taking the piss out of it.


I want to leave it with GW's NO Crap-Number 1, "Best."

The Spacehulk game, and the Dark Angel supplimental material in "Deathwing" The story alone is friggin epic, and will never be equalled, no matter if the emperor himself took a crap, wiped the droppings with the Codex Astartes, and put it on E bay.


The Worst...

I don't want to discuss this. Lets leave it on a positive.

As to the discussion of the Sisters- The FF suppliment goes into the discussion on the subject. Thats fine with me.
The old 2d edition codex was great for putting bones on the sceleton. The coinciding ones per edition of game didn't do much to flesh it out for them.

Not a big fan of Ward. It isn't because he is generally just a gak. Its because of how he has been given free riegn to literally just piss all over the material, irrigardless of the already extensive material out there, before anyone even knew who he was. I don't know who's wife he banged for that job, but I can think of 1000 writers clearly more up to the task then he is to be even be taken seriously as a so called "writer".

Take it to heart, though- If this clown can write, get published, and make real live coin, ANYBODY can.

Grot 6 wrote:Not a big fan of Ward. It isn't because he is generally just a gak. Its because of how he has been given free riegn to literally just piss all over the material, irrigardless of the already extensive material out there, before anyone even knew who he was. I don't know who's wife he banged for that job, but I can think of 1000 writers clearly more up to the task then he is to be even be taken seriously as a so called "writer".

I don't believe for a second that he does have free reign. I suspect that everything he has written was signed off by several other somebodies at GWS. When I complain about Ward, it's the vehicle through which they are delivering the mythos, not the man himself. But clearly some people like this generation of fluff, so another man's trash and all.

It just means that at some point Alan Merrit has read it and gone "Yep, that's fine. Just roll with the whole carve-a-name-into-a-primarch's-heart thing, it'll fly! and given everything I've heard of the man... I just can't see him doing that.

The best:
Miniatures keep getting better every year, in terms of complexity and variance. I'm putting together an Arachnorak spider and am blown away by its options. (I don't play O+G, I just love the miniature.) The spider's even a decent value for your gaming buck -- 60 USD is competitive for a detailed model of that size, plastic or not.

The worst:
Corporate's not exactly organized. Example: Hardcover fantasy books went up in price almost immediately. A retailer friend of mine was dumbfounded; did GW not do a proper price evaluation? Did circumstances change so drastically in three months that it had to re-evaluate the price point for the Army Books? It's mystifying, and suggests that the company's not planning very effectively for the future / is ignorant of consumer perception. (This isn't a rant about prices, before anyone suggests otherwise.) Other inconsistencies with price points, the timing of waves and such also suggest that the company doesn't have a clear-cut idea of what it's about, or what its gameplan should be. I honestly don't think GW's an evil empire; I think it's a clumsy corporation that still manages to produce some of the finest mass-produced miniatures on the market.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It just means that at some point Alan Merrit has read it and gone "Yep, that's fine. Just roll with the whole carve-a-name-into-a-primarch's-heart thing, it'll fly! and given everything I've heard of the man... I just can't see him doing that.

IIRC he only does Black Library fluff now.

Mewens wrote:The best:
Miniatures keep getting better every year, in terms of complexity and variance. I'm putting together an Arachnorak spider and am blown away by its options. (I don't play O+G, I just love the miniature.) The spider's even a decent value for your gaming buck -- 60 USD is competitive for a detailed model of that size, plastic or not.

The worst:
Corporate's not exactly organized. Example: Hardcover fantasy books went up in price almost immediately. A retailer friend of mine was dumbfounded; did GW not do a proper price evaluation? Did circumstances change so drastically in three months that it had to re-evaluate the price point for the Army Books? It's mystifying, and suggests that the company's not planning very effectively for the future / is ignorant of consumer perception. (This isn't a rant about prices, before anyone suggests otherwise.) Other inconsistencies with price points, the timing of waves and such also suggest that the company doesn't have a clear-cut idea of what it's about, or what its gameplan should be. I honestly don't think GW's an evil empire; I think it's a clumsy corporation that still manages to produce some of the finest mass-produced miniatures on the market.

yeah I always thought they were just out of touch and rather dumb, I don't think they're really trying to be dicks, I think they honestly believe they're still the best and only one


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Loki- wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:It just means that at some point Alan Merrit has read it and gone "Yep, that's fine. Just roll with the whole carve-a-name-into-a-primarch's-heart thing, it'll fly! and given everything I've heard of the man... I just can't see him doing that.

IIRC he only does Black Library fluff now.

oh good lord...well at least I can avoid his novels

Isn't Jervis in charge of the studio as a whole? So wouldn't that mean that everything has to go through him?

who knows, things could have to be run past a tank of manatee's for all we know
point is...its not very good and people don't like it, but in the ashes of GW, many other companies are really starting to get a good foothold

The Good: Ogre Kingdoms, Finecast models without flaws, Night Lords novels

The Bad: Failcasts, Tyranids Codex, missing models

The Ugly: Embargo, 'Ard Boyz Scenarios

-Loki- wrote:IIRC he only does Black Library fluff now.

Ward or Merrit?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

-Loki- wrote:IIRC he only does Black Library fluff now.

Ward or Merrit?

Merrit.

He's... he's their head of IP. He's to 40K lore what George Lucas is to Star Wars lore. Doesn't he do everything 40K related?

Pacific wrote:A pretty entertaining (although lengthy) blog post regarding this kind of discussion, is well worth a read:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/09/is-imperium-metaphor-for-games-workshop.html?showComment=1316486593299#c4827929326097010747

That was very well done.

Phobos wrote:

Pacific wrote:A pretty entertaining (although lengthy) blog post regarding this kind of discussion, is well worth a read:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/09/is-imperium-metaphor-for-games-workshop.html?showComment=1316486593299#c4827929326097010747

That was very well done.

Wow, just started reading this. I'm happy that I'm not the only person who has seen the similarities between those two entities!

The best .... Inventing orks, THE ONLY faction in 40k with any humour attached
The worst.... aborting my unborn chil...no hang on, getting rid of blood bowl, that was THE worst!

It's still there, under specialist games. It wasn't gotten rid of.

Yes you are correct, but perhaps 'pushed to one side' would be a better metaphor.

For those of us who remember it being sold in store along with the teams and accessories, GW tournaments and leagues in store, and actively supported in both store and WD, the coverage it receives now is shameful. Not to mention the fact that many stores expressly forbid it being played during games nights.

It's as though GW thinks of it like some shameful uncle, the one who gets drunk at every family meeting and ends up causing a scene and is therefore castigated as a result, rather than it being the golden child - which it should be, many people think it's quite possibly one of the best games the company has ever made. But, you don't have to spend $600 to make a team, so it's accessible only through a tiny button on one corner of the website.

Sorry, that turned into quite a rant, I didn't mean it to!

I remember a time when Epic (2nd Ed Space Marine) was a core game, and sat in store all the time with WFB (4th Ed?) and 40K (2nd Ed). Even when other second tier games came around, Epic never went away until one day it just vanished.

Years later Epic 40,000 showed up, and we all know how well that turned out...

Pacific wrote:Sorry, that turned into quite a rant, I didn't mean it to!

It's a legitimate beef. With a little effort and virtually no new development, they could make Blood Bowl into a pretty hot item. I don't understand why they'd have all those assets and not hype and milk them. BFG as well - several people have posted that BFG probably has the tightest and best written of all GW games.

Ouze wrote:

Pacific wrote:Sorry, that turned into quite a rant, I didn't mean it to!

It's a legitimate beef. With a little effort and virtually no new development, they could make Blood Bowl into a pretty hot item. I don't understand why they'd have all those assets and not hype and milk them. BFG as well - several people have posted that BFG probably has the tightest and best written of all GW games.

Not to mention some of the best miniatures. I still think that the Imperial cruiser is one of the best miniatures GW have ever produced.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I remember a time when Epic (2nd Ed Space Marine) was a core game, and sat in store all the time with 40K (4th Ed?) and 40K (2nd Ed). Even when other second tier games came around, Epic never went away until one day it just vanished.

Years later Epic 40,000 showed up, and we all know how well that turned out...

This is THE most confusing post I have ever seen on Dakka. It's so befuddled I don't Even know how to translate it back to English.

I edited the first bit. That should've been WFB (4th Ed).

Ok I think I finally sorted it. You were referring to Epic with attachments like space marines titan legions Orks and squats etc.
I seem to remember JJ once saying despite it's failure Epic:40000 was the best game he had ever written.

Although it's true the way it was suddenly just withdrawn from stores.

I always seem to remember it was quite popular in store, especially towards the end of RT's lifespan and before 2nd edition came out. A lot of places were really encouraging the Space Marine 2nd edition boxset as it had everything you needed to play in it and was a great entry level system.

Although GW are essentially trying to recreate the same sized battles but in 28mm, I think nothing can ever recreate the feeling of mass battle like having 20,000 points a side of Epic, with a dozen titans and Gargants and massed armoured companies and infantry facing each other