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I never knew that 5th Ed rules could change how the dread is played. I'm going to try it out with my dread that has been collecting dust and see how it goes. It really doesn't "cheat" the RAI if you realize that the LoS is still pretty large at a distance and typically you'll probably have a rhino or something else that could have possibly cross into this, plus a shooting dread still has a 1/6 chance of missing out on a shooting phase. Getting double the attacks though on 1/6 of shooting phases pretty much makes up for the blood rage, assuming you get to shoot at an enemy so I give an A+ to 5th Ed.

Andy06r wrote:The counterpoint myself and others would make is 'fine, your dreadnought can only see 45 in front of him. That means I can deploy my infiltrators 12" behind your dread and melta him off the board since he can't see them.' Arguments break out and it gets out of hand ...

You are actually free to do that, but I hardly see how it is relevant. You can do the same thing to vehicles with a fixed turret, like self-propelled artillery. I wouldn't even argue it breaks the spirit of the rules. Can you imagine how easy it would be to sneak up on a Dreadnought? He's got such a tiny field of view and he takes ages to turn around. However all this is moot when most everything else has 360 LoS, or a spinning turret to grant them 360 LoS, and will be standing somewhere near the vulnerable target.

Oh, and GreyChaos: I'd recommend against taking dual guns. One weapon is enough when you get to shoot it twice. The Dreadnought is going to get close to the enemy, so you'll want that DCCW eventually.

DarkHound wrote:

Andy06r wrote:The counterpoint myself and others would make is 'fine, your dreadnought can only see 45 in front of him. That means I can deploy my infiltrators 12" behind your dread and melta him off the board since he can't see them.' Arguments break out and it gets out of hand ...

You are actually free to do that, but I hardly see how it is relevant. You can do the same thing to vehicles with a fixed turret, like self-propelled artillery. I wouldn't even argue it breaks the spirit of the rules. Can you imagine how easy it would be to sneak up on a Dreadnought? He's got such a tiny field of view and he takes ages to turn around. However all this is moot when most everything else has 360 LoS, or a spinning turret to grant them 360 LoS, and will be standing somewhere near the vulnerable target.

Damnit you beat me to it >< But yes, its a very valid point from Andy. The response though is "and? that's how she works guv." I just thought of something though, If I had a pred with just an AC turret and I deploy, then my opponent goes to deploy some infiltrators to the side of it... Can the pred actually see it? I mean, sure the turret could rotate and then it would see it, but can I rotate my turret as my opponent deploys ?

Shadowbrand wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1181495_Chaos_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Emperor%27s_Children_Warband.pdf

is this legal to use in a normal game or is it for "fun" matches

i would gladly pay for it if i could use it without it being for "fun" matches, but then again it is a Deadly-Danger Sonic Dreadnought...

That is a Datasheet for Apocalyptic games, so no.

DarkHound wrote:That is a Datasheet for Apocalyptic games, so no.

that sucks

Well, I'd use him in a monster mash list: 2 DPs, GD, 3 Dreads, 3 Defilers and Lesser Daemons.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I'd use him in a monster mash list: 2 DPs, GD, 3 Dreads, 3 Defilers and Lesser Daemons.

Monster Mash...

Shadowbrand wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1181495_Chaos_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Emperor%27s_Children_Warband.pdf

I believe that is an Apocalypse Datasheet which may not be allowed in a regular game. IF you and your opponent agree to it before hand, you could use it in a regular game, but be aware that you're also giving them access to similar Datasheets for their specific codex.

I want to make sure I understand this correctly.

In the CSM codex it says that, on a roll of 1 (which is made at the start of the CSM movement phase):

"At the beginning of the Shooting phase it (the Dreadnought) must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!"

But the assertion in this thread is that the 5th edition (current) rules for how walkers function supersede the CSM codex rules, allowing you to partially mitigate how damaging the Fire Frenzy is. Correct?

If correct, can someone give me a page number for the BRB where I can read specifically about it (assuming, of course, you don't want to explain it to me further :p)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: Nevermind. I believe I understand the rules regarding Fire Frenzy and 5th Edition facing. I guess my question is... how do most people play it? I think it's pretty clear that, in 4th Edition (though I didn't play during this edition), the Dreadnought is intended to be able to shoot his own guys that are to his right or left.

I play it as he shoots what he can see (5th ed) cause although our dreads are crazy, i dont think they go nuts on their own guys as often as 1/6

Shadowbrand wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1181495_Chaos_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Emperor%27s_Children_Warband.pdf

Is that still usable? 'Cos if it is, my Sonic stuff's coming back

Tangent wrote:EDIT: Nevermind. I believe I understand the rules regarding Fire Frenzy and 5th Edition facing. I guess my question is... how do most people play it? I think it's pretty clear that, in 4th Edition (though I didn't play during this edition), the Dreadnought is intended to be able to shoot his own guys that are to his right or left.

In fact, in 4th he would spin 360 degrees and slag your backfield, all the while exposing his rear armor for the enemy's turn. The thing to remember is that this codex was designed with 5th edition in mind, despite being released in 4th. I may be naive, but I want to believe GW had a plan. Firing Frenzy still supersedes the rules, just like in did in 4th; the only thing that's changed is what "visible" means.

To your question: most people play it wrong. More people than that have no opinion. All you have to do follow the rules slowly and say it out loud. "Fire Frenzy, alright, check LoS. That Devilfish is closest. Now he rotates towards it and fires his Multi-melta twice..." Unfortunately, the people most likely to have it wrong are GW employees, and that's who your opponent will call when he's being obstinate. Ask for a 4+ roll off and/or take it like a man.

Really now? Is this debated alot or is it just that not many people know about the line of sight thing?

Both.

DarkHound wrote:

Tangent wrote:EDIT: Nevermind. I believe I understand the rules regarding Fire Frenzy and 5th Edition facing. I guess my question is... how do most people play it? I think it's pretty clear that, in 4th Edition (though I didn't play during this edition), the Dreadnought is intended to be able to shoot his own guys that are to his right or left.

In fact, in 4th he would spin 360 degrees and slag your backfield, all the while exposing his rear armor for the enemy's turn. The thing to remember is that this codex was designed with 5th edition in mind, despite being released in 4th. I may be naive, but I want to believe GW had a plan. Firing Frenzy still supersedes the rules, just like in did in 4th; the only thing that's changed is what "visible" means.

To your question: most people play it wrong. More people than that have no opinion. All you have to do follow the rules slowly and say it out loud. "Fire Frenzy, alright, check LoS. That Devilfish is closest. Now he rotates towards it and fires his Multi-melta twice..." Unfortunately, the people most likely to have it wrong are GW employees, and that's who your opponent will call when he's being obstinate. Ask for a 4+ roll off and/or take it like a man.

Dang, man, I'll just feel... shady about it. Cheap, you know? It really does seem against the spirit of the rules as they were intended. The dude in there is crazy and sometimes he just pulls the trigger at the closest possible target.

But, I'm assuming that this comes up with the Dreadnought because, as a vehicle with armor, this means he has a facing. And this facing determines what exactly is within his line of sight. If he goes FF and the closest unit is behind a wall (such that he has no line of sight), then he won't shoot them because he can't see them. Further, if something is behind him and since he is a vehicle, he can't see that, either. I guess I'm just thinking out-loud, but is this all more-or-less correct?

You're on the right track. It's more specific than that though: Walkers only draw LoS through their guns, which are hullmounted sponsons that have 45 degree LoS. Go read through the Walker section and you should find it under their shooting rules.

I like dreads. They're not 100% reliable, but a 100pt vehicle which has S10 HtH attacks is pretty handy, and it's nice to get another antitank gun in a non-HS slot.

The "Monster Mash" list someone quoted is one of the more popular ways to run them. If they're in a list with multiple dreads, defilers, two daemon princes and a greater daemon, that's a lot of big tough scary guys to overwhelm your opponent's heavy guns.

DarkHound wrote:

Tangent wrote:EDIT: Nevermind. I believe I understand the rules regarding Fire Frenzy and 5th Edition facing. I guess my question is... how do most people play it? I think it's pretty clear that, in 4th Edition (though I didn't play during this edition), the Dreadnought is intended to be able to shoot his own guys that are to his right or left.

In fact, in 4th he would spin 360 degrees and slag your backfield, all the while exposing his rear armor for the enemy's turn. The thing to remember is that this codex was designed with 5th edition in mind, despite being released in 4th. I may be naive, but I want to believe GW had a plan. Firing Frenzy still supersedes the rules, just like in did in 4th; the only thing that's changed is what "visible" means.

I think you've got everything right except the 360 in 4th part. In 4th Dreads had a 180 degree LOS to the front. But as you say; he shoots at the closest "visible" target; and for vehicles, only things in their fire arcs are "visible". Once a target is chosen, a Walker then turns to face that target (to make sure both arms are able to bear on the target).

Thanks guys, I'll take a look. This definitely makes Dreadnoughts way better, for sure. Out of curiosity, when 6th Edition comes out, which direction do you think they will take on this particular issue?

I say... The dreadnought suddenly doesn't look so awful anymore. Thanks for pointing that fact about "visible unit" out, I've wanted an IW dread for quite a while.

Yeah, it's surprising how many people are simply ignorant of the rule's actual wording and implications.

Regardless, I personally believe they're great at 110 pts. for a dedicated CC unit.

As to how many, I usually say run 3 or don't run any. Monster Mash and all that. In more standard CSM builds, I have no experience with them.

I've lost count of how many times I've frustratingly tried to explain the proper rules to ignorant red-shirts without success. Maybe next time I'll read out the Walker LoS rules directly from the BRB for them.

Tangent wrote:Out of curiosity, when 6th Edition comes out, which direction do you think they will take on this particular issue?

We're rumored to be the first codex of 6th edition so it shouldn't matter. The current book was designed to support armies of mixed renegades and ignore the Legions, so it's speculated they'll shift back to a Legion book. Hopefully they'll do what they did for C:SM instead of CMS3.5. Either way, I expect there to be a lot more upgrades, particularly for vehicles and HQs. The Dreadnought won't be the same at all.

Ah, that's awesome!

When firing a walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that it's guns are aimed at the target (assume that that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45%, like hull mounted weapons) and then measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along it's barrel, as normal for vehicles. This pivoting in the shooting phase does not count as moving and repersents the vastly superior agility of walkers in comparison with other vehicles. Keep in mind however that the walker will probably remain in this direction until it's next movement phase, so it's facing will determind where it's rear armor is going to be when the enemy returns fire!

pg 72 BRB

Fire Frenzy

At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!

pg 40 CSM Dex

Yeah... how are you ignoring the pivot rule to not shoot your own stuff?

BlkTom wrote:

When firing a walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that it's guns are aimed at the target (assume that that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45%, like hull mounted weapons) and then measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along it's barrel, as normal for vehicles. This pivoting in the shooting phase does not count as moving and repersents the vastly superior agility of walkers in comparison with other vehicles. Keep in mind however that the walker will probably remain in this direction until it's next movement phase, so it's facing will determind where it's rear armor is going to be when the enemy returns fire!
pg 72 BRB

Fire Frenzy
At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!
pg 40 CSM Dex

Yeah... how are you ignoring the pivot rule to not shoot your own stuff?

The crux of your argument, taken from the other thread is:

BlkTom wrote:No where in the FAQ or in the books do they say your limited in the vision of the walker.

If you use that as precedent, I can use anyone's LoS for virtually anything. You are saying that when rules pertaining to a unit ask for vision, they do not mean the unit's LoS. Indeed, you are saying that LoS is a moot term, and in order to draw vision to the target it must merely be on the board.

I disagree. In the paragraph you cited, the Dreadnought pivoted before it was asked for LoS to its target. During Fire Frenzy, the Dreadnought must "pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit." It has to determine what the closest visible unit is before it can pivot. The only things visible to a Dreadnought are units within the 45 degree arches of its guns. Thus we look down its guns, find the target, bring both guns to bear, and fire twice.

If the rule was written so he could spin around and shoot units behind it, it would say: "At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot towards the closest unit (friend or foe!), check for line of sight, and fire all of its weapons against it - twice! If the unit is not in line of sight, it pivots towards the next closest target, and so on."

BlkTom wrote:

When firing a walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that it's guns are aimed at the target (assume that that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45%, like hull mounted weapons) and then measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along it's barrel, as normal for vehicles. This pivoting in the shooting phase does not count as moving and repersents the vastly superior agility of walkers in comparison with other vehicles. Keep in mind however that the walker will probably remain in this direction until it's next movement phase, so it's facing will determind where it's rear armor is going to be when the enemy returns fire!

pg 72 BRB

Fire Frenzy

At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!

pg 40 CSM Dex

Yeah... how are you ignoring the pivot rule to not shoot your own stuff?

You don't.


Since you don't seem to get it, I'm going to point out that you pivot when FIRING the weapon. You figure out what you are firing at, based on line of sight, before you pivot.

And you measure line of sight from the vehicles weapons, and since they have a 45 degree LOS, and they can only see units in that 45 degree arc from their weapons mount. Now, please try to figure out how that is relevant to

Fire Frenzy

At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!

pg 40 CSM Dex

I have bolded the important bit for you!

Darkhound, that responce (No where in the FAQ or in the books do they say your limited in the vision of the walker)was to this...

well i've read through it, and they say this:

dreadnoughts can't see through their backs, so as long as you stay behind the dread, it can't harm you.

not exactly what they said, but close enough.

You can disagree with the rules all you wish. There is nothing stating that the only thing visible to the walker is 45 degrees infront of it. /YOUR/ saying that. THe rules clearly state you can pivot your dread to face any direction, but once you fire your locked into that facing. You effectivily have a 360 degree of view and arc of fire. The reprocussions to this ability is that you can not pivot behind you and slag something and not have your rear armor facing towards the enemy. The 45 degree firing arc is so if your facing the enemy and a target is 90 degrees to your right, you do not have to pivot 90 degrees to shoot it and expose your side armor, but you can now just pivot 45 degrees and then swivel 45 degrees.

Both of you are ignoring the pivot rule because it /hurts/ you in this situation... you really have nothing backing your arguement to state otherwise.

Read the rules for drawing LoS from vehicles.

Check if a dread is a kind of vehicle.

Come back then plox.

BlkTom wrote:
You can disagree with the rules all you wish. There is nothing stating that the only thing visible to the walker is 45 degrees infront of it. /YOUR/ saying that. THe rules clearly state you can pivot your dread to face any direction, but once you fire your locked into that facing. You effectivily have a 360 degree of view and arc of fire. The reprocussions to this ability is that you can not pivot behind you and slag something and not have your rear armor facing towards the enemy. The 45 degree firing arc is so if your facing the enemy and a target is 90 degrees to your right, you do not have to pivot 90 degrees to shoot it and expose your side armor, but you can now just pivot 45 degrees and then swivel 45 degrees.

Both of you are ignoring the pivot rule because it /hurts/ you in this situation... you really have nothing backing your arguement to state otherwise.

The walker is a vehicle if it has armour values, hence is subject to vehicle weapon LOS rules. It is both a blessing and a curse, and in this case, it is a blessing.

Gates, swings and roundabouts.



My eldar dreadnought, in contrast, has become a monsterous creature. It is vulnerable to poison weapons as a result. Gates, swings and round abouts.