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Walker does not follow the vehicle rules reguarding LoS! They have their own rules. With your logic, vehicles can just drive away from close combat, and thus a dread is a vehicle and can leave close combat. But they clearly state in the first line under 'Walkers and Assault' that they can not break from close combat like vehicles.

Walkers are vehicles with their own rules that differ from normal vehicle rules.

You list /anywhere/ in the walker section where it says it has a LoS.

Biktom, you are incorrect. Take it step by step:

Page 14: A unit must have LOS to the target to select it as a target. First you determine what's in the unit's LOS, then you select a target.

Page 58-59: The vehicle rules tell us that their LOS is based on the fire arcs of their weapons.

Page 72: The walker rules tell us that a) when it fires, you pivot the walker to face at the target, and b) that their weapons have particular arcs of fire. If their LOS is 360, those rules are meaningless.

It's a nice clear sequence. You have to have LOS before you can pick a target. A walker doesn't pivot, and literally can't know where to pivot, until a target has been selected.

The Fire Frenzy and Blood Frenzy rules are written in a manner which is entirely compatible with this. Fire Frenzy tells us the Dread wil shoot the cloests "visible" unit, and pages 58-59 and 72 tell us what "visible" means for vehicles and walkers. Compare and contrast to the Blood Frenzy rules, which say the Dread heads after the "nearest enemy".

Mannahnin wrote:Biktom, you are incorrect. Take it step by step:

Page 14: A unit must have LOS to the target to select it as a target. First you determine what's in the unit's LOS, then you select a target.

Page 58-59: The vehicle rules tell us that their LOS is based on the fire arcs of their weapons.

Page 72: The walker rules tell us that a) when it fires, you pivot the walker to face at the target, and b) that their weapons have particular arcs of fire. If their LOS is 360, those rules are meaningless.

It's a nice clear sequence. You have to have LOS before you can pick a target. A walker doesn't pivot, and literally can't know where to pivot, until a target has been selected.

The Fire Frenzy and Blood Frenzy rules are written in a manner which is entirely compatible with this. Fire Frenzy tells us the Dread wil shoot the cloests "visible" unit, and pages 58-59 and 72 tell us what "visible" means for vehicles and walkers. Compare and contrast to the Blood Frenzy rules, which say the Dread heads after the "nearest enemy".

party pooper. You know its more fun to see how long it takes them to get it

BlkTom wrote:Both of you are ignoring the pivot rule because it /hurts/ you in this situation... you really have nothing backing your arguement to state otherwise.

DarkHound wrote:I disagree. In the paragraph you cited, the Dreadnought pivoted before it was asked for LoS to its target. During Fire Frenzy, the Dreadnought must "pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit." It has to determine what the closest visible unit is before it can pivot. The only things visible to a Dreadnought are units within the 45 degree arches of its guns. Thus we look down its guns, find the target, bring both guns to bear, and fire twice.

I... I don't know how I can bring up the pivot rules anymore than I have.

There is nothing stating that the only thing visible to the walker is 45 degrees infront of it. /YOUR/ saying that.

Your argument is "the rules don't say I can't!"

This is an inclusive rules set. They say what can be done, instead of stating everything that cannot be done. Using the English language, and lacking an alternative definition provided in the rules, I know that "visible" and "having a line of sight" mean the same. The rules for Vehicles and Walkers both state that line of sight is drawn through 45 degree cones from their guns.

EDIT: I'm just going to let Mannahnin and Jihallah handle the feeding frenzies from now on. No matter how fast I post it's always 2 posts behind.

"Unlike infantry, a walker has a facing, which inflences where it can fire (see below) and it's armor value when fired at."

"When firing a walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that it's guns are aimed at the target (assume that that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45 degrees, like hull mounted weapons) and then measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along it's barrel, as normal for vehicles. This pivoting in the shooting phase does not count as moving and repersents the vastly superior agility of walkers in comparison with other vehicles. Keep in mind however that the walker will probably remain in this direction until it's next movement phase, so it's facing will determind where it's rear armor is going to be when the enemy returns fire!"

"At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!"

The facing is stated as it is because you can have two shooting weapons (one for each arm) and AV values. Those weapons have a 45 degree arc of fire. It clearly states you can pivot in any direction to fire, which effects what weapons you bring to bear and the AV facing to the enemy. Your then locked into this facing when you fire.

Nothing says you use vehicle LoS rules or that it have a limited LoS. Nothing negates the pivot rules or state you have determind LoS before pivoting. Your facing is important because it determinds what weapons you can fire and what facing your AVs have for things firing on /you/.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:Biktom, you are incorrect. Take it step by step:

Page 14: A unit must have LOS to the target to select it as a target. First you determine what's in the unit's LOS, then you select a target.

Page 58-59: The vehicle rules tell us that their LOS is based on the fire arcs of their weapons.

Page 72: The walker rules tell us that a) when it fires, you pivot the walker to face at the target, and b) that their weapons have particular arcs of fire. If their LOS is 360, those rules are meaningless.

It's a nice clear sequence. You have to have LOS before you can pick a target. A walker doesn't pivot, and literally can't know where to pivot, until a target has been selected.

The Fire Frenzy and Blood Frenzy rules are written in a manner which is entirely compatible with this. Fire Frenzy tells us the Dread wil shoot the cloests "visible" unit, and pages 58-59 and 72 tell us what "visible" means for vehicles and walkers. Compare and contrast to the Blood Frenzy rules, which say the Dread heads after the "nearest enemy".

Your listing a LoS from the Vehicle rules... it does not say anywhere in the Walker entry that you use the vehicle LoS rules. your /assuming/ it uses the vehicle LoS rules when there is nothing saying it does in the walker section. I can give you a page number stating infantry have no LoS. Walker use some normal infantry rules, as stated under the very first paragraph. They will list a distinction of when the Walker uses vehicle rules and when it uses infantry rules. You can not just say 'Well, vehicles do this so wwalkers /have/ to do this because they are vehicles!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please, I am begging you Darkhound. Give me a quote and a page number to back up that Walkers have to determind LoS BEFORE they pivot and that they do it like a vehicle.

You can't... you have nothing stating or supporting what your saying. I do... I have the pivot rule. I can even use that the only difference between a walker and infantry for shooting and LoS is facing for what weapons can be used and the AV value the enemy shoots at.

DarkHound wrote:I'm just going to let Mannahnin and Jihallah handle the feeding frenzies from now on. No matter how fast I post it's always 2 posts behind.

Nah I'm not going to bang my head against the wall, I'd rather sit back and chuckle at this point.

See, he quotes the rules where it says how to measure LoS, then ignores it completely. It's kinda amusing, really.


Edit: Personal attacks and Arguments ad Hominem are not acceptable or good tactics in debate. If you can't keep it polite, don't post. -Mannahnin

BlkTom wrote:Your listing a LoS from the Vehicle rules... it does not say anywhere in the Walker entry that you use the vehicle LoS rules. your /assuming/ it uses the vehicle LoS rules when there is nothing saying it does in the walker section. I can give you a page number stating infantry have no LoS. Walker use some normal infantry rules, as stated under the very first paragraph. They will list a distinction of when the Walker uses vehicle rules and when it uses infantry rules. You can not just say 'Well, vehicles do this so wwalkers /have/ to do this because they are vehicles!" .

The rules tell us how to resolve particular situations. Then more specific categories of situations, and within those more specific ones.

A walker, being a vehicle, follows all the rules for vehicles except where specifically excepted or contradicted.

The Walker rules do not contradict the rule that a vehicle's LOS is determined by the fire arcs of its weapons. Quite to the contrary, they tell us that said weapons are limited to a 45 degree arc.

The Walker rules do not contradict the rule that a unit checks what units are in LOS and selects a target from among those units. Quite to the contrary, the Walker rules tell us what its fire arcs are, and tell us that when shooting, it is pivoted to face toward the "target".

Not in any direction you want. Not pivoted before choosing a target. It is pivoted toward a target, which as the basic shooting rules make clear, is selected AFTER determining what units are in LOS.

Well, I am not going to stoop to trying to make personal attacks against people that have nothing to do with the discussion/debate. If you got nothing to back what your saying, don't post.

I do use LoS rules in the arguement because they have LoS rules for vehicles and for troops. A detailed, extensive listing of these rules.

No one, as much as they bring it up can quote from any point of the Walker section that a walker uses vehicle LoS rules or references vehicle LoS rules.

You certainly can't and you haven't. Infact, you said walkers are vehicles and follow all the vehicle rules. I easily shot that down and proved that no, infact walkers do not follow all the vehicles rules with the Assault rule. This also established that walkers have seperate rules from vehicles.

I have also shown that walkers use Infantry rules... that walkers have more in common than people seem to realise with infantry.

The closest backing of this was something /I/ brought up concerning weapon facing and AV facing. The quote is 'Unlike Infantry, the walker has a facing which influence where it can fire (see below) and its armor value when fired at.' That statement alone says you treat a walker just like a Infantry except when concerning what weapons you can fire on a target and that it has a armor value.

BlkTom wrote:
Please, I am begging you Darkhound. Give me a quote and a page number to back up that Walkers have to determind LoS BEFORE they pivot and that they do it like a vehicle.

Dude!

BlkTom wrote:
Fire Frenzy

At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!

pg 40 CSM Dex

BlkTom wrote:
Infact, you said walkers are vehicles and follow all the vehicle rules. I easily shot that down and proved that no, infact walkers do not follow all the vehicles rules with the Assault rule. This also established that walkers have seperate rules from vehicles.

Actually, that's not what he said at all. What Mann said was:

Mannahnin wrote:
A walker, being a vehicle, follows all the rules for vehicles except where specifically excepted or contradicted.

EDIT:

And this isn't a YMDC thread, so please keep the rules discussions out of this. This thread is for folks that want to discuss the usefulness of a particular unit. Previous posters have noted where different interpretations can be used, so please leave it at that.

Mannahain, you state that you use vehicle LoS because it doesn't say you don't use it?

The 45 degree weapon arcs are important for AV facing and to determind if you can fire one or both arms... that seems to be pretty much it. LoS of the weapons are covered under the pivot rule. You determind that /after/ you pivot.

No where does it say you determind LoS of the weapons /before/ you pivot.

That is the crux of the arguement... determinding if your rhino that is 3" away and to your rear or side that you can not pivot (which is clearly stated you do) and shoot it because LoS is established before pivoting.

In fact, they are saying you can't pivot a vehicle before you shoot to determind LoS.

That is what makes me bang /my/ head against the wall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

whitedragon wrote:

BlkTom wrote:
Infact, you said walkers are vehicles and follow all the vehicle rules. I easily shot that down and proved that no, infact walkers do not follow all the vehicles rules with the Assault rule. This also established that walkers have seperate rules from vehicles.

Actually, that's not what he said at all. What Mann said was:

That wasn't to Mann, that was to Jihallah. People are responding so fast (and so many against me) that I can't respond fast enough. See what assuming does?

It says in fire frenzy you shoot the closest visible unit. Like, in your LoS. Like, you can see them. Like, there is a line you could draw unobstructed between the two. The line of sight we can call it if you want.

Where you you determine LoS from a vehicle?


After this, as stated in FF, you pivot towards the target...

Jihallah wrote:

BlkTom wrote:
Please, I am begging you Darkhound. Give me a quote and a page number to back up that Walkers have to determind LoS BEFORE they pivot and that they do it like a vehicle.

Dude!

BlkTom wrote:
Fire Frenzy

At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!

pg 40 CSM Dex

Dude!

BlkTom wrote:
Fire Frenzy

At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!

pg 40 CSM Dex

You determind weapon LoS /AFTER/ you pivot. the Walker has 360 degree visability, just like a infantry. Just like pivoting a vehicle before you determind LoS of it's weapons for shooting.

Walkers have 360 degree vis, and I am the queen of France!

I'm thankfully off. Hopefully in town I will find crack as potent as the stuff your smoking.

...and scene!

I vehemently disagree with one of the rules viewpoints listed here. I won't elaborate as to which one. Regardless, this rules "debate" has gone on far enough.

Locking thread.