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ShadarLogoth wrote:Ok, you're wrong

Seriously though, base for base C'tan are about the strongest CC MC in the game, at least against other MCs (outside of Apocc etc), largly due to the fact they have an Invlun where most MCs don't, higher Strength and higher Toughness, and that's just taking their base stat line. Add in Gaze of Death and (insert cool toy here) and they become absolute Monstorrrrish Creatures. The problems that plague the C'tan are getting into CC, they perform quite admirably once they get there.

LOL and that's fine, trying to figure out if I should be taking them more often.

I didn't mean to imply that 4+/4++ edit: against MC/PW etc. was bad once in CC, for example the Dreadknight is only 2+/5++ and that first number is irrelevent. Except where it isn't, right? And that's sort of the problem I have with them, as you say - "once they get there". But a 250pt model that lets every shooting wound through its save on a coin flip just doesn't last for me, whereas that silly Dreadknight virtually ignores every shooting attack except Lascannons. Toughness helps - but there's no difference between T6 and T7 when you're eating volume S4 infantry fire. (hmmm... boy, it sure does everywhere else, though, doesn't it.) So, let's see..

Dreadknight is a dual purpose, ranged/CC war machine.

C'Tan is an "in your face" CC beatstick that sorta needs to be in CC for protection. (right? maybe?)

I'm going to have to just kit one out with something besides WW and throw it out there.


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Puscifer wrote:This is what I can make out of the models that I have and I won't be able to get anymore for quite sometime thanks to the hike. Debating wether to work a Destructiontek with an Orb in there.

So... How well will this do taking on all comers?

I should work out a painting deal with you, in the time >> money crunch now. Puscifer, what's your strategy? Oh - and I think posting a list and associated tactics in "tactics" is fine, can't really do one w/o the other.

My plan is to slow my opponents movement with Orikan T1 and from T2 onwards using the staves from the Crypteks, while shooting at the units under a withering hail of fire.

I'm considering not taking the CCB on the Overlord. It just doesn't work well enough without support from Wraith.

That should free up points for some extra warriors and a Lancetek with Orb.

Going to drop some Scarabs too. They are good, but not good in this list IMO.

I may not understand the list. First obvious thing - how does it handle a long range shooty list? Everything's 24" range and there's no Solar Pulses. A Doomsday Ark is okay, but he's the only long range threat, right? Everything else in our list here will have to move forward into contact, which will put them at risk during the approach.

Basically if we're going Tremorcron there has to be some reason for them to move and take the dangerous terrain tests. A pure CC oppoent, welp, okay - he has to move regardless, maybe it'll work out. I think if they did close, they'd eat us up. I don't see why an IG gunline wouldn't just sit there, possibly even outside the range of the tremorteks (not that it'll matter), and shoot us to pieces.

Yeah, I'm seeing that now. Restarting the list as I speak.


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Have you got any suggestions from the models I have:

(Nothing has been put together)

Orikan (Cryptek Conversion)

3 Barge Box Sets

32 Necrons

10 Immortals

Probably 10 Scarab Bases

C'tan

Ark box set

2 Triarch Stalkers

Enough bits to make a number of Crypteks

Any help would be appriciated. I can't get anymore models ATM, so no more extras.

Well shoot, I see why you made the list you did. That's fine, you've got what you've got. So, just designate a couple crypteks as Pulseteks, and you can go firepower-centric. The Stalkers and AB's will certainly put a hurt on any searchlighting transports. If you can fight defensively with the troops and keep them in difficult terrain cover, CC armies will have to take that dangerous terrain check. If the Tremorteks are within their 36" range they can force his closing medium range stuffs and/or deathstars to take the DT checks. Try and see!

Wouldn't the Stalkers benefit from the Twin Linked Heavy Gauss Cannon?

It's range may help better than the Heat Ray.

I didn't want to drop Orikan, but I might have to so I can take an extra Court to field more Crypteks.

Yeah, it's sort of a tradeoff, their own damage vs. helping out the AB's, for instance.

Well they won't help out the AB. The AB are Twin Linked all ready. They'll just help in the Ranged department.

He's got the little popgun too. <shrug> Lessee, scatter on the DA, bunch of infantry firepower, that's about it.

Puscifer wrote:Wouldn't the Stalkers benefit from the Twin Linked Heavy Gauss Cannon?

It's range may help better than the Heat Ray.

I didn't want to drop Orikan, but I might have to so I can take an extra Court to field more Crypteks.

It depends on your primary purpose for them.

If you are more for the Twin-linked, then you want the HGC, for the extra range.

If you want the Vehicle Poping power, then you go for the Heat Ray. It also keeps the points a little lower.


I personally prefer the Heatray, just because I like having the tad extra Anti-tank in my list. Both are pretty good choices though.

You'll want to find a way to capitalize as much as possible on immotek's presence if you want to use him instead of a barge lord.

Barge Lords are really good, and solar pulses are much easier to work around than Immotek for the standard necron army, so you'll have to put some thought into this.

RE: Destroyers
They compete for a handy slot, feel like they cost a bit too much, and come in fragile, wastefully sized units. I can see why people don't think about them very often. On the plus side they kite threats like nobody's business when combined with solar pulses, and tend to find weaknesses very easily, or force your opponent to play more conservatively. You might also note they are now jump infantry, and can march into cover now. You'll also find that little groups of heavy destroyers in cover are not often deemed worthy of committing firepower toward, if you use their mobility to make it uncomfortable for your opponent. They also seem to make good use of stalker linking.

RE: Wraiths
I can tell you I know your pain, from when I've used them in higher point value games. Boy can they end up in anticlimactic fights forever. They are also usually the only thing a necron army has that is worth sending into melee (where as the same is not true for other armies). You'll be sitting there, trying up some assault marines with silly FNP until unit number 2 makes it's way in, other examples abound. The can fight dedicated CC units, they can survive a while, but they don't tend to have the reliable punch, to really win out without some decent support. They can win pretty well against OK or countercharge CC units, but it's usually not with the cleanliness you'd like. I suggest, if you want to run wraiths, run a bundle, or have something that is otherwise contributing to your force, that is capable of supporting wraiths in melee.

If you have an overlord that's hopped from it's barge, it can lend a hand to the poor indestructible wraiths.

I hear great things about having a unit of spyders to support a unit of scarabs, and 2 maxed wraith units. The spyders make it to the fights eventually and love the whip coils. I hate having too much CC anti-tank though.

What I'm really jazzed about at the moment, is the thought of 2 decked out wraith units working with a scoring hammer that consists of 8 warriors, 2 lords with MSS and WS in a ghost ark. Neither of those bad boys can be targeted, they charge out of an av13 skimmer that can provide blocking and regenerates their buffer each turn. When you've got 2 very mobile CC options also threatening and providing disruption alongside this pseudo rock, I can see you having a lot fewer of the issues involved in using a CC pseudo rock.

RE: Stalkers
I don't have enough experience with them yet, but that's because I have trouble justifying them in lists that don't run a lot of MSU high strength fire. After that, I'd want to also have a lot of yet-to-be-twin-linked tesla fire laying around and that sounds like a very specific army to me.

IMO, Destroyers are just not worth it. They are expensive (points and in monetary terms) and are surprisingly fragile.
They may be getting "fixed" in 6th ed with their PE being used in shooting, but even this changes nothing.
HD are the same, their cost outweighs their usefulness.

Wraith are useful. End of story. One of the best combat units in the game, but they still must have a list built around them as Necrons are not a CC army. One unit is useable in most lists.

Stalkers are one of those units that need to be supported properly. Two should always be taken, never one. Their weapon systems are somewhat... Odd. AI with the particle weapon seems like a good choice, but ultimately doesn't support it's Targeting Rules. TL HGC is great for long range, which Necrons do lack in some areas, but this is deemed inferior to the Heat Ray for AT firepower. Heat Ray is also a competent AI weapon up close, but it's party piece is the 2 shot Multi Melta. Swings and rounabouts on weapon choice. Take what you feel is the right weapon for your army.

Now... We know that mixing Orikan with an army of mostly 24" weaponry is a recipe for disaster. We ideally need two pulses (which means ditching Orikan all together) or Imotekh. Taking Imotekh is probably a better idea as you can cause havoc with lightning while moving up under the cover of night. I've heard of people taking a Chronometron to the ball and being able to re-roll the night roll for Imotekh or the Hulk Up roll for Orikan. Not seen this before, so I can't comment.
Another guy to think of with the Tremorcron army is Zahndrekh. He is really useful in adding game changing rules to precise situations, but again, we would only have one pulse, which might not be enough in game to get into range.

Necrons are a tricky army to use. They remind me of a mix of Tau and Eldar. Surgical Strike potential, with the ability to drop the hammer when needed.

My problem ATM is this...

Drop Orikan and go 2 Overlords or go Orikan/Imotekh or Orikan/Zahndrekh/Obyron*.

*If points allow.


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Actually, looking at my list of stuff... Orikan isn't the best idea in a takes all comers list.

He works for one turn, then is subpar.

A combo of two Overlords, be it SC or not, is better.

2 Pulseteks are going to be mandatory while my army gets in range.

My T1, move up, maybe take a cheeky shot with Doomsday Ark.
Op T1, pop a pulse.
My T2, move up, maybe take some shots and maybe put his guys in DT.
Op T2, pop a pulse, watch him move if he has to and let the highlarity begin.
My T3, shoot to kill, profit.

Now...

Imotekh could work, Zahndrekh will work with him (so unfluffy) by taking away Night Vision and giving Night Vision to one of my units and Tank Hunter when it's needed.

Much testing is needed.

I n my (admittedly limited) experience the Solar Pulses can be hti and miss, but when they work they can be a game changer. i woudl rather take them and them do nothing than risk not using them at all.

I am big fan of Destroyers. I have tried using mixed squads and units of 3 heavies and they have not failed to deliver yet. They have the range to stay out of CC and they are pretty tough (although an invul or a 2+ save woudl be nice).

i think their use depends a lot on what armies you face. I tend to play against primarily MEQ/TEQ armies, so havign AP3 and Ap2 gusn with decent range is a big plus for me. Also if you use Zahndrekh they can becoem essentially S10, which makes them a lot more reliable.

if it helps (probably not) here is list i am looking at for a friednly tourney in a coupe of weeks:

Zahndrekh
Anrakyr - CCB
2 Pulse Teks with lances
5 Warriors - Ghost Ark
5 Warriors
10 Warriors
10 Tesla Immortals
6 Scarabs
3 Heavy Destroyers
2 Annihilation Barges

With those 2 HQs i can do a fair bit of funky stuff (including give my immortals FC and Counter Attach, take over an enemy tank within 18", take any one of a load of USRs off an enemy unit, apply one of those same USRs to one of my units, and cause 2 turns of nightfighting for my opponent.

my only concern is it's a bit light on troops bodies and scarabs compared to what i normally take.

That's one thing I was about to address...

Troop to other stuff ratio.

Necrons biggest weakness, IMO, is it is difficult finding a sweet spot between workable troops choices and fitting in the awesome stuff we need for winning games.

Do we go MSU and fit in as much utility with Crypteks or do we go with blobs or medium sized squads?

i think it again depends on thegame. You can field MSU and concentrate fire. The bonus of this is that if (when) they get charged and swept, you dont lose a big chunk of your army.

The downside is that to use all the survivability options you woudl need more Ghost Arks, Res orbs etc etc.

I try to go for a mix. A large(ish) unti to move up with my Ark, and a smaller unit to leave on the hoem objective. if i put a res orb lord with the hom guard they are more survivable, but also, as the lord has everliving. he might be able to keep poppping up aftyer every assault phase to re-contest the objective. Annoying much?

In my games I'm leaning more to the edges of the ranges for warriors. So it's either 5 + cryptek or 15-20. 10 warriors just seem to be meh, and if I'm going to add a phaeron and or lord I'd prefer more bodies.

Immortals my favourite number is 10, but often find I end up with 8 for points reasons, which seems perfectly acceptable.

Praxiss, in answer to your concern about troops numbers in your friendly list, I'd say you have too many as opposed to not enough. In particular, that 10 warrior group without a phaeron seems like a waste.

Why not think about using the 130 pts for a stormtek for the Eternals and another anni barge?

Dont have any more Anni Barges (already managed to sneak 3 past the wife!).

I have taken Storm Teks in every other list i have played and they have NEVER performed (not as in dissappointign, as in never do anything at all). i dont know if people see the model and are scared to charge them or what. I have never fired off a lightngin field and never managaed to get with 12" of a tank to use the voltaic staff.

Wow, that's awesome. (not the no more anni barges thing, that sucks)

Wish everyone would leave my stormtek squad alone! It's like a magnet. Want to swap models?

yeah, weird i know. of course this game is gogin to be the one where my units all get charged and i'll be left wishing i had a StormTek.

Hey Ho. In the big points cut, he was the first to. /sniff.

is it overkill/a bad idea to take 2 SCs in a 1500 point game? i think they both support the army and bring their own flavour to things. plus they both give a lot of stuff for free (Anrakyr in a barge is only 30 points more than an overlord in a barge)

Depends on the SC TBH.

In my case: Zahndrekh and Anrakyr. Anraykr will be in a CCB.

Praxiss wrote:In my case: Zahndrekh and Anrakyr. Anraykr will be in a CCB.

If you want to be really coo, you can buy 3!
Zahndrekh can buy a CCB, but you'll find a very limited number of situations where that is very intelligent. You do however want as many warscythes in CCB as possible, because it may well be the best thing you can do. Now if you read the qualificiations on the CCB's transport ability, it doesn't say only an overlord can hop in, it can carry any independent character. So, if you are dead set at running zandrekh in an army (for whatever reason, I've never found his bonuses worth his huge cost and inability to handle a barge or combat alone) you can bring his buddy along, without using a slot and pop him into a flying armchair and do what all the cool necron armies are doing.

Really, I tend to have trouble figuring out when Ankyr the traveller is worth it. His ability, apparently, no longer works out of a ccb for some reason and what is counter attack and furious charge really worth on a squad of 17 point shooty guys? I don't think it's enough to dissuade charges, and beefing it up with things like gaze of flame, a necron lord or lightning shield make for a lot of points when considered against the 50-65 points more you are paying for ankyr.

As I've said, I've never really had a time I wanted to play Zandy particularly much. Maybe if he were a phaeron... I just don't know when removing a USR or gaining one is worth that many points, in that, you end up fielding a real compromise of a unit because of him and he costs more than an overlord in a CCB already. together they come out to 350, without barges, and their special rules demand more purchases to play around them, 2 minimum Bargelords is 360, which do you feel like is more worth a quarter of your armies points? I'm not trying to be an ass, but I think it's a question you should ask yourself before hoping onto the special character train in necrons. Also: Do I really need 2 courts at 1500?

I'd be really happy if someone tried the 3 hq 2 barges way of playing but that is already 670 points! What fun!

Zandrekh is great utility that doesn't need to be frontline. Obyron taking his ride is Priceless as he can really bring the hurt down.
Anrakyr is not great, but he can have moments of sheer awesome... I hear taking over a TITAN is in this summer. Apocalypse games are just broken with Anrakyr.

Zahndrekh has little to offer Anrakyr, so I personally wouldn't bother with the latter.

Zahndrekh works well with:

Imotekh (unfluffy). Giving a unit Night Vision is pretty kool.

Orikan. Giving one of those long range weapons Tank Hunter is really good. His other skills all have purpose here too.

Any basic Overlord. Well yeah.

Obyron. Senile old fart has to have a wise executioner to TCB on the front line.

Can a C'tan fire Pyreshards and Moulder of Worlds on the same turn/shooting phase?

Myself I steer clear of the named charachters in the cron 'dex. An interesting list I ran last night was this:

HQ
Overlord
Warscythe
Sempiternal weave
Phase shifter
MSS
CCB
X2
Royal court
Lord
Warscythe
Ress orb
Cryptek
Harbinger of despair
Veil of darkness

X2

Troops
10 warriors
10 warriors
10 warriors
5 warriors

Fast attack

7 scarabs
6 scarabs

Comes to about 1300 pts more or less.

Lords surf around slicing tanks and drawing fire while the 5 man squad sits on home obj and keeps going to ground. One ten man squad is a backup for the 5 man squad and purely for capping objectives, whilst the other 2 squads use VoD to get up close and rapid fire/contest/hold enemy objectives. The overlords are beastly in CC, between the str7 power weapon and t5 2+3++ and MSS they cause major problems when they hit a squad.

Maybe not the most competitive but definitely worth a try if you have the models for it.

Madmax1 wrote:Can a C'tan fire Pyreshards and Moulder of Worlds on the same turn/shooting phase?

Yes, as it is a Monstrous Creature.

The more I look at the Necron Army List, the more I see a lack of anti tank and the more I see of potential 6th ed changes that are going to make Necrons utterly obscene.

Just wait until 6th ed when we can potentially be glancing vehicles to death. If the hull point rules are true that is.

Right now, I have a fairly distinct lack of AT.

I really don't see any lack of anti-tank. Our Heavy support choices are brimming with options and then we can have Crypteks threaded throughout squads to give us even more. Then Night Scythes for those Troops can zoom ahead and get side/rear shots with a decent chance of penning AV11. That's not even mentioning CC Barges or Wraiths.

but they still must have a list built around them as Necrons are not a CC army.

Memetics.


Let's See:
HQ:
OLord in a CC.
Obyron
DLord
Phaeron Olord
Imothek (not a CC beat stick himself, but very conducive to CC lists)
Orikan

Elite:
Triarch Praetorians
Flayed Ones
Lychguard
C'tan

Troops:
With Phaeron and proper RC choices (WS/MSS Lord) you can make any troop (warriors or Immortals) unit very respectable in CC.

FA:
Wraiths
Scarabs

HS:
Tomb Spyders

Not too mention all of the units that augment a CC list (Monoliths for LOS blocking, etc)


So they have dedicated CC units in every FoS but they can not be a CC army?

Interesting.

Praxiss wrote:In my case: Zahndrekh and Anrakyr. Anraykr will be in a CCB.

I find zahndrek is useful for tank hunters, furious charge, counter attack and stealth powers. Normally, I'd focus on the immortals with FC and CA, but you already have both of those because they are eternals. I still think that zahndrek will add his points using tank hunters and stealth though.

However, if you dropped zahndrek and could squeeze in an OL with a barge, that would be a viable alternative. That would almost require a list rewrite though.

I play a list similar to yours sometimes, but I have more lanceteks and crypteks because I don't have destroyers. It's a solid, fun list!