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I have recently been playing with necrons and have come to some interesting conclusions.

I have been running Imotekh and a Ccb lord as my hqs but im having a hard time justifying the points for Imotekh.He can consistently get 3-4 turns of night fighting in which is nice for preventing my immortals in the back from getting shot but seems to do nothing for wraiths after a few turns, his lighting is also pretty underwhelming .So he is really only good for going first and getting in 1-2 more turns of nightfight Vs two teks. Im not sure what all the hype is about him maybe i have missed something.

Second my wraiths cant seem to be able to kill anything.Against most things i assault it seems like its a huge tarpit with both sides doing 1-2 wounds to each other.

How is it that two of the "best" unit in the book consistently under preform?

I have been thinking about replacing imotekh for nemessor and two pulse teks .Reason being is nemessor can buff whichever unit needs it and the teks can keep it dark and provide some decent AT shots and nemessor saves me the points for a reslord so it comes out to be cheaper on the hole.

Imotekh has a lot of utility for his points. As you say yourself, he can give you more turns of darkness than 2 pulseteks. He also is very inexpensive for all the gear he has. His abilities work even if he is in reserve. He is very hard to kill directly due to 2+/3++ T5 3W. He is also phaeron and has an interesting weapon. Most importantly, the lightning is absolutely brutal in certain matchups, particularly against MSU and low AV. Once in a while, he can do so much damage that he basically decides the game. All of that for 225 pts. I think he is quite cheap. He does not work in all lists, but he works very well with CC lists.

Wraiths have rending S6 and 4 attacks on the charge. With coils, they strike first in almost every matchup. There are very few things that can tarpit them, chiefly hammernators. Against most other units, they eat through rather quickly, unless they are grossly outnumbered. You have to field them en mass and have to pick your targets at least to some extent, but they are good against almost everything and excellent against some. Also, they have high flexibility due to the combination of their special rules, speed, and damage potential. They are overall the best unit in the Newcron codex.

Try out the Nemesor and decide for yourself. He is 40 points less expensive and has an orb and interesting rules, but overall IMO he is not even half as useful as Imotekh in at least half of the lists.

azgrim wrote:my wraiths cant seem to be able to kill anything.Against most things i assault it seems like its a huge tarpit with both sides doing 1-2 wounds to each other.
How is it that two of the "best" unit in the book consistently under preform?

Depends: how many are you taking, and what are you throwing them at?
As Necrontyr40k mentioned, you have to know what they will work best against. Not sticking them in combat against massive blobs of Boyz is a good start. Avoiding Terminators is also relatively a good idea.

Regarding Imotekh, I think if used properly he's effective, but I have yet to figure his most effective tactics out so far, so I've left him sidelined... though, that may change when 6th comes out if they change how deep strike works (so Flayed Ones stop sucking so hard, and the Blood Swarm Scarabs ability actually makes sense)

i could see a large group of flayed ones with a lord and vailtek being nasty

Imothek does very well against BA dread lists, his ligthning acounted for 6 or 7 out of the 9 my opponent fielded.

Will be running him when I get my scythe list running.

Wraiths are just amazing

azgrim wrote:i could see a large group of flayed ones with a lord and vailtek being nasty

Royal court members can't attach to Flayed ones.

I don't really like Imotekh. I typically prefer the core of my crons be shooty with maybe some CC counter charge support, and Imotekh really works counter-inutitively to a shooty list. He's much better suited to a CC list. Generally for HQs, I prefer 1-2 standard overlords with a warscythe and CCB, adding mindshackle scarabs and a sepiternal weave if I have the extra points. Cheap and effective. Add a couple of pulseteks for nightfighting if I need it.

I played Zahndrekh yesterday and was impressed at hwo well the additional buffs worked (ket giving my unit of 3 heavy destoryers TanK hunters. Immobilizes a land radier in turn 1!).

I can see him working well with Wraiths as well (Furious Charge/hit and Run anyone?)

The Necrons seem to work off which HQ you take, especially in combinations of HQ.

Imotekh and Orikan can shut armies down.

Imotekh and Zahndrekh compliment each other with Zahndrekh giving Night Vision to a unit or even Furious Charge to some Wraith, which will be in abundance in a Imotekh list. The Phased Reinforcement works well with the Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs.
Deep Strike in a unit of Flayed Ones next to a unit in your opponents turn and watch your opponent either waste a turn of shooting against them or ignore them and risk losing a unit the next turn. I've seen this lead Death Company around the board and turn games around when the opponent makes the wrong choice of who to shoot.

azgrim wrote:I have recently been playing with necrons and have come to some interesting conclusions.

I have been running Imotekh and a Ccb lord as my hqs but im having a hard time justifying the points for Imotekh.He can consistently get 3-4 turns of night fighting in which is nice for preventing my immortals in the back from getting shot but seems to do nothing for wraiths after a few turns, his lighting is also pretty underwhelming .So he is really only good for going first and getting in 1-2 more turns of nightfight Vs two teks. Im not sure what all the hype is about him maybe i have missed something.

I think Imotekh only works in very specific lists. If your army has many units which want to shoot outside rapid fire range he is not a great choice. He works best in assault heavy lists but i dont rate him in a "wraith wing" type list because you wont need Night fighting for more than two turns due to the wraiths speed - a pair of pulses will be more reliable/cheaper. He might work in a scarab farm list where you want to spend a couple of turns producing scarabs before rushing forward but IMO he is very overrated.

Ok, let's do the math - Imotekh has: overlord 90, weave 15, shifter 45, phaeron 20, special staff 10, rough equivalent of three solar pulses 3x20 = 240 pts

Plus, he lets you steal the initiative on 4+. How many points do you think this is worth? I'd say at least 50 pts.

His lightning is devastating against MSU and all light armor. He will punish for about 3 turns, likely 4 if you buy him a 40 pt chronotek. How many points is that? I think it is worth about the cost of a manticore or two hydras, so ~160 pts.

He also has a couple of other abilities like the bloodswarm and the humiliating defeat, which does not come up usually, so let's just ignore that.

So, he gives you more than 240+50+160=450 pts worth of value and he costs 225 pts. That is a 50% discount. What more do you want? How is he overrated?

Yes, he impedes his own shooting, so don't take him in a shooty list, but he is absolutely awesome in CC lists. He works very well with wraithwings and scarab farms, and their hybrids.

Regarding wraithwings just needing 2 pulseteks, I will just say that you are wrong at least 33% of the time. Dawn of war pretty much guarantees you will not be assaulting before turn 3. Even then, the wraithwing is best used as a flanker mopping up the opponent's deployment from the side, to prevent being outnumbered and to disallow full concentration of fire. So even then, nightfighting is of big help.

PraxissI wrote: can see him working well with Wraiths as well (Furious Charge/hit and Run anyone?)

The problem is, Hit and Run requires an initiative roll, you can't rely on making a roll below your init value, when your init is 2!

I don't think Imotekh works well with anything but some sort of a scarab/spyder setup. And he doesn't work well at lower point values. And he's really only stellar against MSU. The problem with using him in a Wraithwing is that the Wraiths will usually get stuck in early, before he's had time to attrit. Have to avoid that, you'll get defeated in detail. You need to be patient with him. Frankly, his playstyle is methodical, and ideally his lists should avoid engaging at all until mid-game. (I settled on him mostly because I wanted to prove he *could* be successful, most early reviews were that he wasn't competitive.) Azgrim, are you playing at 2K points? Your experiences actually match my early ones, until I started using my CCB and solitary Wraith unit as backfield support. (Current list has 2xSpyder 1xAB, 2xScarab 1xWraith HS/FA slot allocation.)

Destroyers are underrated. A shooty Solar Pulse list has a lot of advantages. Solar Pules are a flat-out must in anything but an Imotekh list, and they're really the most flexible night-fight equipment b/c YOU can still fire at full range. If you're going to take Zandrekh you need a good shooting AT unit for him to buff early game, Destroyers are probably the best choice.

I think the important thing to realize with our codex is that our army is hard to play. It's very timing-dependent. Moreso than most, we have to get everything there at the same time, ie, J2Y's MTO theory. This is true with either an offensive or defensive list. "getting there" means applying combat force, ie, having our 36" stuffs and 24" stuffs in firing position at the same time our CC stuffs comes into assault range - hopefully while we've still got some night cover. If they engage piecemeal they'll die piecemeal - especially the CC dudes.

Totally agree with you there.

I'd add to that the correct application of Crypteks too.

There is a Cryptek for every squad type that can take them and a good list should take full advantage of this.

But as I've said before about Destroyers, they are a Glass Cannon. High firepower, but they suffer greatly from being one wound 40 point targets. 60 if Heavy.

Puscifer wrote:But as I've said before about Destroyers, they are a Glass Cannon. High firepower, but they suffer greatly from being one wound 40 point targets. 60 if Heavy.

The reason Destroyers are still a valid choice is that they have enough range to avoid return fire at night. Both they and our Lanceteks (basically shorter ranged ML substitutes) are overpriced for the same effect other armies get. However, we have Solar Pulse night fight. Our ranged AT is more effective because if they have enough range to stay out of night sight distance (ie, searchlight distance), they can count on getting at least one, possibly two turns of firing where the enemy can't reply. So, they're more powerful than their statline.

Maybe I haven't read that right, but does the Pulse = a one way Night Fight?

If so, then yeah Heavy Destroyers are worth it.

Randall, are you suggesting that for 60 pts, HD are worth it?

They can be, obviously they're overpriced (and/or underprotected) by themselves - but the way Praxiss used them in his BA TFG battle, w/Tank Hunter and perhaps a bit more standoff (have to eyeball 30-36") they're basically invulnerable. I'm thinking of switching to a "kawabungaaa!" list myself, it's basically a MTO theory after that - by the time the Solar Pulses run out he'll be staring down the barrell of CCB's, Wraiths and/or Scarabs etc, might be too busy to plonk them then.

1st two turns, snipe
Thereafter, support CC units who should be soaking up return fire
Profit! (maybe?)

disclaimer: this is totally unproven theoryhammer and could get your ass shot up like a colander. Void where prohibited.

Well the glaring weakness of the Necron list is dedicated anti tank and HD seem the way forward. I'm just not convinced.

Anybody tried a Cronzilla list?

I'm facing one tonight with Draigowing.

Puscifer wrote:Well the glaring weakness of the Necron list is dedicated anti tank and HD seem the way forward. I'm just not convinced.

Anybody tried a Cronzilla list?

I'm facing one tonight with Draigowing.

They're non dedicated AT isn't half bad though, a good 66% of your army is gonna have the Gauss special rule, not as amazing as it was back in 4th but if the 6th rumors are true about hull points and being and to glace vehicles to death again then that'd explain our shaky dedicated AT

Tye_Informer wrote:

PraxissI wrote: can see him working well with Wraiths as well (Furious Charge/hit and Run anyone?)

The problem is, Hit and Run requires an initiative roll, you can't rely on making a roll below your init value, when your init is 2!

Ah, was not aware of the Initiative test part (have never actually used Hit and Run).

Puscifer wrote:Maybe I haven't read that right, but does the Pulse = a one way Night Fight?

If so, then yeah Heavy Destroyers are worth it.

Randall, are you suggesting that for 60 pts, HD are worth it?

As i understand it the Solar Pulse works for one Player Turn. So, lets assume you get first turn....

Necron turn - move shoot - yay.
Enemy Turn (you pop your solar pulse) - night fighting = less shooty damage
Necron Turn - (night fighting ends) - normal shooting for you!
Enemy Turn (pop seond solar pulse) - even less shooty damage

All the while you are moving up your short ranged shooty units and CC units under cover of darkness. OR leaving your Heavy Destroyers at max range to make then nigh-impossible to hit (2D6x3 means a max range of 36" so they woudl have to roll double 6's to hit a max ranged Heavy-D)

This is the list I faced last night in our local gaming campaign:

Imotekh 225 - Goes in the Immortal Squad.

Ctan 245
Gaze of Death and Lord of Fire
Ctan 225
Pyreshards, Moulder of Worlds

15 Warriors 195
15 Warriors 195

10 Immortals 170
Gauss Blasters

6 Scarabs 90
6 Scarabs 90

3 Wraiths
Whip Coils

3 Canoptek Spyders 215
2 TL Particle Beamer, Gloom Prison.
3 Canoptek Spyders 215
2 TL Particle Beamer, Gloom Prison.

It's a horrible game to play as Draigowing. First of all it has tons of troops to deal with and they are backed up by EIGHT MC. Top that off with Imotekh causing havoc with the storm and I was in big trouble from turn one.
I lost my Dreadknight on Turn 2 to Lord of Fire when I used the Incinerator on one of the Scarab units.

All in all this is an army that has multiple targets that have to be prioritised, otherwise you just lose horribly. Yes, I lost horribly.

It didn't realise until after the game that this Necron army was top of the leader board for most territory gained. Undefeated in 12 games.

What an odd list, Puscifer!

The army seems to have basically swapped out Wraiths for C'Tans as assault elements. This frees up FA slots which he can fill with Scarabs, and he takes combat powers, but C'Tan aren't usually viewed as "combat" MC's due to their lack of defense. (Basically 4+/4++ iirc)

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't play with assault C'Tans or against Dreadknights, but one on one a baseline Dreadknight will defeat a baseline C'Tan most of the time, for fewer points. But this army also has a deluge of support CC elements. (Some sort of mediocre, sure Spyders are MC's but they're mostly bulk when compared to things like Dreadknights or C'Tan.)

Imotekh also doesn't have the normal Chronometron, heck the army doesn't have a Cryptek in it, that's gotta piss off the local Cryptek union. I suppose it might not matter if everything's stuck in CC by turn 2 anyway.

You say this army is undefeated? I'd think it would be vulnerable to a good midrange shooty army, ie, non-Draigo GK lists.

Praxiss wrote:

As i understand it the Solar Pulse works for one Player Turn. So, lets assume you get first turn....

Necron turn - move shoot - yay.
Enemy Turn (you pop your solar pulse) - night fighting = less shooty damage
Necron Turn - (night fighting ends) - normal shooting for you!
Enemy Turn (pop seond solar pulse) - even less shooty damage

This. The necrons dont have a huge amount of long range firepower but what they do have is made much stronger with solar pulses.

When considering if I can outshoot an oponent at range it often goes like this;

Turn 1: I have a Lance/crono court, an extra Lance-tek somewhere and 3 Heavy Ds, opponent has...nothing.
Turn 2: I have a Lance/crono court, an extra Lance-tek somewhere and 3 Heavy Ds, opponent has...nothing.

Night-fight multiplies CC effectiveness too. (Captain Obvious time.) Especially against shooty lists with the initiative. (alpha strike == very difficult.)

This is one of the reasons when J2Y and Stelek are going at it, I tend to discount Stelek's objections about Wraiths as "yeah, but..." He doesn't take into account army wide synergy multipliers or, for that matter, weight movement enough.

Randall Turner wrote:What an odd list, Puscifer!

The army seems to have basically swapped out Wraiths for C'Tans as assault elements. This frees up FA slots which he can fill with Scarabs, and he takes combat powers, but C'Tan aren't usually viewed as "combat" MC's due to their lack of defense. (Basically 4+/4++ iirc)

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't play with assault C'Tans or against Dreadknights, but one on one a baseline Dreadknight will defeat a baseline C'Tan most of the time, for fewer points. But this army also has a deluge of support CC elements. (Some sort of mediocre, sure Spyders are MC's but they're mostly bulk when compared to things like Dreadknights or C'Tan.)

Imotekh also doesn't have the normal Chronometron, heck the army doesn't have a Cryptek in it, that's gotta piss off the local Cryptek union. I suppose it might not matter if everything's stuck in CC by turn 2 anyway.

You say this army is undefeated? I'd think it would be vulnerable to a good midrange shooty army, ie, non-Draigo GK lists.

This guy has destroyed every list he's come across. Ork swarm, Nid swarm, Draigowing, SW Missile Spam. SW and IG gave him a couple of issues, but on one turn against both armies, he rolled like a God for the lightning and destroyed an insane amount of stuff which basically won him the game. I'd say he got lucky on those two occasions, but otherwise his army it pretty solid.

Puscifer wrote:Imotekh 225 - Goes in the Immortal Squad.

Ctan 245
Gaze of Death and Lord of Fire
Ctan 225
Pyreshards, Moulder of Worlds

15 Warriors 195
15 Warriors 195

10 Immortals 170
Gauss Blasters

6 Scarabs 90
6 Scarabs 90

3 Wraiths
Whip Coils

3 Canoptek Spyders 215
2 TL Particle Beamer, Gloom Prison.
3 Canoptek Spyders 215
2 TL Particle Beamer, Gloom Prison.

I gotta agree, this is a really weird list.
Just by looking at it, there are some things that really don't make as much tactical sense... but if it's really doing that well, I guess there's something there that we must be missing?

Puscifer wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:You say this army is undefeated? I'd think it would be vulnerable to a good midrange shooty army, ie, non-Draigo GK lists.

This guy has destroyed every list he's come across. Ork swarm, Nid swarm, Draigowing, SW Missile Spam. SW and IG gave him a couple of issues, but on one turn against both armies, he rolled like a God for the lightning and destroyed an insane amount of stuff which basically won him the game. I'd say he got lucky on those two occasions, but otherwise his army it pretty solid.

Imotekh can win any one game for you. Especially against IG, they tend to have a lot of targets, and especially at 2K points, which it looks like you're playing. (It's just impossible to know when he'll show up! ) A typical GK list with it's "good" long range shooting and "good" 24" shooting is usually the Kryptonite for Necrons. I generally tell GK players "if you're careful, you'll win". A foot list against MC's though, not sure.

skoffs wrote:

Puscifer wrote:Imotekh 225 - Goes in the Immortal Squad.

Ctan 245
Gaze of Death and Lord of Fire
Ctan 225
Pyreshards, Moulder of Worlds

15 Warriors 195
15 Warriors 195

10 Immortals 170
Gauss Blasters

6 Scarabs 90
6 Scarabs 90

3 Wraiths
Whip Coils

3 Canoptek Spyders 215
2 TL Particle Beamer, Gloom Prison.
3 Canoptek Spyders 215
2 TL Particle Beamer, Gloom Prison.

I gotta agree, this is a really weird list.
Just by looking at it, there are some things that really don't make as much tactical sense... but if it's really doing that well, I guess there's something there that we must be missing?

Maybe the list works because of the flexibility to switch tactics? Its got a packet load of shooting from the warrior and immortal blobs, AT from the scarabs and CC from the MC (presumably to take advantage of the no armour saves? So, with Imo, you move up the warrior blobs centre board, each side and control the 24" circle from there (anvil) then circle the MC around the outside and hammer the opp into the anvil. With such large units, DS would be a bit tricky for an Opp because he can spread way out?

How does he normally play the list? In particular, how does he manage to keep CC units away from the warriors? With no orb and no arks, got to think they would be running off the board every game.

Randall Turner wrote:What an odd list, Puscifer!

The army seems to have basically swapped out Wraiths for C'Tans as assault elements. This frees up FA slots which he can fill with Scarabs, and he takes combat powers, but C'Tan aren't usually viewed as "combat" MC's due to their lack of defense. (Basically 4+/4++ iirc)

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't play with assault C'Tans or against Dreadknights, but one on one a baseline Dreadknight will defeat a baseline C'Tan most of the time, for fewer points. But this army also has a deluge of support CC elements. (Some sort of mediocre, sure Spyders are MC's but they're mostly bulk when compared to things like Dreadknights or C'Tan.)

Imotekh also doesn't have the normal Chronometron, heck the army doesn't have a Cryptek in it, that's gotta piss off the local Cryptek union. I suppose it might not matter if everything's stuck in CC by turn 2 anyway.

You say this army is undefeated? I'd think it would be vulnerable to a good midrange shooty army, ie, non-Draigo GK lists.

Ok, you're wrong

Seriously though, base for base C'tan are about the strongest CC MC in the game, at least against other MCs (outside of Apocc etc), largly due to the fact they have an Invlun where most MCs don't, higher Strength and higher Toughness, and that's just taking their base stat line. Add in Gaze of Death and (insert cool toy here) and they become absolute Monstorrrrish Creatures. The problems that plague the C'tan are getting into CC, they perform quite admirably once they get there.



To the OP, other posters have touched on this rather well but don't make the mistake of thinking your just buying Imothek for night fighting and lightning pewpew. His defensive capabilities and Phaeron make him a huge squad multiplier for a unit of Warriors, the key here is using them. He should always eat the first bullet of every volley until getting to one wound, and even still once NF and lightning expiring. 2+/3++ with a chrono is frikken nails. Honestly Imo, 15 to 20 Warriors, and a Chrono were such a staple for my lists I had to force myself to stop taking them awhile to give the other HQs some love.

I've researched the hell out of this, to what works and what doesn't and what suits my play style. I'm posting this here as no one is commenting on my post in Army Lists - Sorry... I expect to be repremanded for my sins.

Orikan = 165

Overlord = 225
CCB, Warscythe, Sempiternal Weave, Phylactery, Mindshackle Scarabs.

C'tan = 260
Writhing Worldscape, Grand Illusion.

Triarch Stalker = 150
Heat Ray
Triarch Stalker = 150
Heat Ray

12 Warriors + Harbinger of Transmogrification = 186
12 Warriors + Harbinger of Transmogrification = 186

10 Immortals + Harbinger of Transmogrification = 200
Tesla Carbines

4 Scarabs = 60
4 Scarabs = 60

Doomsday Ark = 175
Annihilation Barge = 90
Annihilation Barge = 90

1997/2000

I think it's got plenty of Firepower and will keep my opponents away, but I think that I'm low on troops. I've split the Scarab units up as I believe it will be more difficult to remove 2 units, rather than 1 big one, but I'm not convinced of their effectiveness in this list.

I think it has quite a lot of AV13, which can always help against some armies.

This is what I can make out of the models that I have and I won't be able to get anymore for quite sometime thanks to the hike. Debating wether to work a Destructiontek with an Orb in there.

So... How well will this do taking on all comers?