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Yeah battle brothers with the SoB and BT would actually be fluffy now that codex is saying that Templars worship the emperor as a god. Especially with their history during the apostate war, that would be a ripe source of fluff between the 2 factions.

Personally I dont like how the codex has us BTs turning out to be "religious" god worshippers. But the way GW has written our fluff and our "real world influence" i guess it just seems more logical for us to be the "god worshippers".

*spoilers* from legion of the damned BL
There was this line from the Legion of the Damned book spoken by the future Excoriator Chapter master after he kills off a few ecclesiarchy personnel about how the Emperor was not a god but the ideal every man should be. And since the Excoriators are also a IF successor chapter, to me this is how all the space mariness felt about the emperor (except some outliers).

djz05 wrote:
Yeah battle brothers with the SoB and BT would actually be fluffy now that codex is saying that Templars worship the emperor as a god. Especially with their history during the apostate war, that would be a ripe source of fluff between the 2 factions.

Personally I dont like how the codex has us BTs turning out to be "religious" god worshippers. But the way GW has written our fluff and our "real world influence" i guess it just seems more logical for us to be the "god worshippers".

*spoilers* from legion of the damned BL
There was this line from the Legion of the Damned book spoken by the future Excoriator Chapter master after he kills off a few ecclesiarchy personnel about how the Emperor was not a god but the ideal every man should be. And since the Excoriators are also a IF successor chapter, to me this is how all the space mariness felt about the emperor (except some outliers).

I disagree - the Black Templars have always been about Faith - its something the previousd codex talks an anwful alot about - much more so than the other SM Chapters - as noted before recent GW and BL fluff has been pointing to the BT being full blown worshipers of the God-Emperor. Helsreach, which for me brought the bT to life is very clear on this matter.

re the Excoriator /Imperial Fists- both the new Codex and hints in the HH series show that the "converted" Fists went to the Black Templars and the others stayed as Imperial Fists or their successor Chapters. Again the Codex confirms your view about most (but not all) Astartes belief.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Well it says there should be a maximum of 10 Crusades at any one time - and that Crusades have between 5 and 3-400 Marines.

No, according to the very quotes you used, it says they are made up of "ad-hoc formations that bear almost no resemblance" to the hundred-strong codex company and that there is "no fixed number of Crusades", each of which may contain a few battle brothers (not likely), or hundreds (that's more like it).

Therefore, I'm struggling to find how it's implied that their previously estimated numbers are "significantly less". On the contrary, it seems there is now the possibility for many more of them to be spread across the galaxy.

Happy to be wrong

It does also say that on occassions there have been upto 12 Crusades at one time although also that each Crusade should have one of the ten sacred Black Swords.

I'll go with your intrperetation as it fits with view of them!

Overall the new SM fluff was either extremely boring or terrible. Doesn't make sense that the Templars only hate alien or "rogue" psykers.

It's all a shame as the Farsight Enclaves/Black Legion releases both had unusually good fluff.

Index Astartes: Black Templars

All Space Marines are renowned for their fervent dedication, but the extremity of the Black Templars` faith is often described as fanatical even rabid! They lust to crush the enemies of mankind; they have absolutely no tolerance of heretics, mutants, psykers, aliens or any other abomination against the Еmperor. For ten thousand years they have crusaded to prove their loyalty, and this creed has become so embedded in their doctrines that they are utterly ruthless towards anyone or anything perceived as a threat to the Emperor. They will mercilessly wipe out the populations of worlds to expunge the sin of heresy, while the mere presence of a witch on a battlefield drives them into a rage of hate and vengeful bloodletting.

I haven't read the Codex entry myself but from what I am reading here it doesn't appear to be that different.

Just an FYI

I'll have to check the page when I get home but BT still cannot have a Librarian in their detachment.

Now I don't remember where in the new codex where it says this. But I remember it saying BT can't ally with any army that has psykers in it.

Drakka77 wrote:
Now I don't remember where in the new codex where it says this. But I remember it saying BT can't ally with any army that has psykers in it.

That's the old one, there's no such rule in the new one.

Drakka77 wrote:
Now I don't remember where in the new codex where it says this. But I remember it saying BT can't ally with any army that has psykers in it.

I can find no mention of this.

No we can ally with dirty psykers now. And with the big fluff changes I want battle brothers with SoB. The new codex actually mentions BTs fighting beside SoB more often than it does mention them with any other SM chapter.

 Isean wrote:
The new codex actually mentions BTs fighting beside SoB

Oooh. Does it mention specific battes? If so, what happens?

Kindly provided by Mr Morden:

"Though they are under no obligation to offer any aid, the Black Templars often find common purpose with the Ecclesiarchy. Many times in their glorious history, the Black Templars have gone to war alongside the devout Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas, and a complex web of mutual obligation and honour has evolved."
- p. 51

822.M41 The Battle of Fire and Blood
The Black Templars join the Order of the Bloody Rose in purging the Pelegorn Cluster.
- p.53

Not relevant to the Black Templars, but still interesting for general Astartes-Ecclesiarchy relationships:

980.M41 The Promethium War
The Salamanders fight beside the Adepta Sororitas of the Order of the Ebon Chalice against the Black Legion in a brutal urban war on the world of Heletine. The enemy is put to the torch as dozens of Land Raider Redeemers and Immolators burn through the streets of Heletine's vast city-complexes.
- p.59

The Ultramar Fief contains the Cardinal world Espandor.
- p.23

Cool, thanks.

That's definetely a Battle Brothers-tier relationship. I doubt they'll make a special exception for the Templars, though, which is a shame.

I'd allow it. Makes sense,

But I'm not a TO, so...

 Troike wrote:

 Isean wrote:
The new codex actually mentions BTs fighting beside SoB

Oooh. Does it mention specific battes? If so, what happens?

Also Page 51

"Many times in its glorious history, the Black Templars have gone to war alongside the devout Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas, and a complex web of mutual obligation and honour has evolved."

I always got the impression that the SoB have an inherent distrust of the astartes legions due to the horus heresy defection of so many of them and the fact that the SoB and inquisition are always trying to tell people what to do...the astartes obviously never let either group dictate to them. Therefore their relationship is rocky at best and both groups try to reveal as little as possible.

The "rogue" psykers BTW could be anything from Chaos influenced to doesn't say his prayers enough. I like to think that any psyker has a good chance to be "invited" to join a squad and then gets a stray bullet when the battle winds down.

ansacs wrote:I always got the impression that the SoB have an inherent distrust of the astartes legions due to the horus heresy defection of so many of them [...]

Not necessarily. At least in GW's fluff, the potential has been there since decades ago:

"Occasionally, the Battle Sisters will even have common cause with the fierce Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes. Although the relationship between these two organisations is only civil at best, the Space Marines and Battle Sisters both respect each other's prowess and skill in arms. Many times the foes of the Imperium have been eradicated by a combined attack from these two elite forces."
- WD #211 (published shortly before their 2E Codex)

Throughout the history of the writings published by the core studio, this has been utilised in various joint operations. Both the current editions of Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Sisters of Battle added new records of individual joint missions, but they are far from the first, even if one were to limit their search on Codex fluff. The last Codex: Black Templars, for example, already featured a team-up during the Vinculus Crusade, at whose climax Templars Marshal Ludoldus, Champion Ulricus and a Canoness Jasmine fought side by side against a daemon of Khorne that had possessed the body of an Inquisitor.

The exact relationship depends on the specific Chapter, however, for just as the Codex establishes a clearly benign connection between the Sororitas and the Black Templars, this after-action report from Canoness Carmina of the Argent Shroud, following another joint op with the Fleshtearers Chapter, hints at a rather negative opinion regarding the various successor chapters of the Blood Angels, undoubtedly due to the effects of the geneseed defect. And we probably don't even need to guess what they would think of the Space Wolves after the murder of a priestly delegation and the Ecclesiarchy's subsequent punitive expedition to Fenris.

The Ecclesiarchy is in an interesting dilemma as far as the Space Marines are concerned. On one hand they are basically abhumans, and many Chapters engage in heretical beliefs and traditions, up to and including cannibalism. On the other hand, they are (officially) the Emperor's Sons, and thus directly related to the god the people are worshiping. This has created an interesting dynamic both in relationships between the Ecclesiarchy as a whole and the Space Marines, as well as different religious movements within the Imperial Cult. The 2E SoB Codex goes into a bit of detail regarding this predicament, but obviously the exact behaviour of a Chapter would weigh heavily in swaying public opinion to one side or another. So in essence, loyal and cooperative Chapters engender a positive relationship, whilst heretical Space Marines confirm the latent bias and thus become extra heretical.

ansacs wrote:and the fact that the SoB and inquisition are always trying to tell people what to do...the astartes obviously never let either group dictate to them

This, too, depends on the Chapter. Some are obviously defiant of any such interference, whilst others cooperate if both sides play by the unwritten rules that came into existence throughout the millennia. Yet other Chapters are firmly in the Inquisition's pocket - so much so that some were founded by Inquisitorial decree (Flame Falcons, Black Dragons, ...).

Ok, that's it, time for action! I posted in the Rules forum saying Templars & Sisters should be Brothers. (Err, not gender-wise, obviously. Rules-wise). Everyone who agrees should go over there and post "yes, this is as it should be" before the inevitable flock of haters descends.

 SisterSydney wrote:
As a Sisters fan, reading that passage in the new C:SM blew me away. (So much so that I'm unlurking here after a long time to make my first post). It makes it sound like Sisters & Templars should be, not just Allies of Convenience, but Battle Brothers -- which, yes, I know, I know, no interpretation of the (much debated) current rules would allow. Maybe that's something worth discussing in the proposed rules forum?
Battle Brothers or not, it'd be nice to have some S4 T4, religiously fanatical men around the house to take out the trash in melee while the Sisters burn heretics to death from a distance....

Wow, I always thought it was the opposite:
The sisters get in close and roast everything,
The marines look at each other and say "If it is on fire and it moves: shoot it",
If any of them get the sisters they will flame us next for "not doing the emperor's work good enough".

In fluff, both armies probably have a strong tendency to go in close based on their choice of weaponry (close range boltgun fire and/or flamethrowers) as well as the lust for battle ... and a good portion of confidence in their abilities, or simply disregard for their personal safety.
In the tabletop, the Sisters unfortunately do not fare very well in close combat, and veteran players are still very used to keeping a bit of distance to prevent their troops from getting entangled in a melee. The tricky thing is that close range is also the "sweet spot" for the Sisters where they would gun down anything that moves with cheap bolters, so you'd constantly walk a thin line between being too far away to do sufficient damage, and being too close and at risk getting assaulted.

One of my worst games ever saw me lose to IG because my Sisters got assaulted and beaten in close combat by Guardsmen. Guardsmen!
Granted, that was when IG still had doctrines (guess which ones the player had picked), and in 6E there is now Overwatch which surely helps the Sisters somewhat... but I could understand if a lot of SoB players are still somewhat "burned" from prior experiences.

Both of you get bonus points for the entertaining descriptions, though.

 Talizvar wrote:
Wow, I always thought it was the opposite:
The sisters get in close and roast everything,
The marines look at each other and say "If it is on fire and it moves: shoot it",
If any of them get the sisters they will flame us next for "not doing the emperor's work good enough".

Well, for the shootier Astartes chapters, that might work -- though the Marines still do way better in close combat than the Sisters. In the Black Templars, though, who the heck wants to get stuck in the back shooting? Meanwhile the Sisters are just 6" in back of the Crusader squads saying, "hey, darlin', I know you wanna charge, but first move a little to the left so I can torch those guys, m'kay?"

BT use the Space Marine rules for allies now

So they are Allies of Convenience I think...

Not good enough. Battle brothers I demand it...because I want to put sweet challenge monkey ICs in sister squads. Yup Grimaldus loves pimpin those holy sisters.

Agrees (except, um, for the pimping part), and we have a thread & poll over in Proposed Rules about making them Battle Bros (err, but not Hoes).]