Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The biggest thing for me would be letting us take Big Gunz grot teams as troops instead of heavies. It would be a great way to hold objectives in the deployment zone and add some much needed fire power to Ork armies.

Also, Zzap guns. How about adding Blast and making them S D6 (roll for each gun) and armorbane? It would tone down the effects of blasts on troops, but allow them to hit quite a bit more often.

headset313 wrote:
So me and my friends have noticed that orks have been getting stomped, at least at the places we play. So we have been playing them with the iron hands chapter tactic, also we let the weird boy use pyromancy. It seems to give the old codex a boost, well enough of one where they arnt getting tabled as much. Now does any agree this is a good idea? Or do you think we are messing with something that doesn't need it?

I think Orks need help (the wish list following your post proves it.) A lot of changes occurred in 6th edition (making it more "shooty"-which doesnt favor orks) and the close combat changes don't favor orks either: Over watch and attacks being based on Initiative.

But we orks iz sneaky gits! We learned to charge garbage first to make the target overwatch that and not shoot up your lads charging in second (at same unit).

We have some gems though in our codex I'd hate to lose: fearless 30 man squad of boyz, lootas, big gunz, battle wagons, biker nobs. We're close. I just want a little tweek. Maybe cheapen stuff. And give orks a better bail out when trukks blow up. Its FUN for orks. They love it! Its like going on a roller coaster. Give them a 2+ bail out save-They're used to it because their trukks stink and they know it so are ready to bail!

Hears another idea. Space Marine Terminator squads use TH/SS to soak up hits. What if Orks could attach a mek to a squad that had similar armor saves. He just goes in front with some heavily armored grots to catch bullets.

My core wishlist-
1. Bring back mobbing up. If the designer can't see that this is core orc mentality. They need to get a new army to write about.
2. Put the burners back in standard orc mobs. We don't need burner units UNLESS they're gonna be SPECIALIZED assault troops. Make burnas power weapons again?
3. Put back stikk Bombas as a unit and make them SPECIALIZED assault units. Everyone attacks simultaneously.

Orks fight close combat. We need a good scary assault. Remember when choppas made everything 4+ save? Scary. Orks are pretty pathetic right now. Orks need better close combat abilities cause they like it. Gunz is for making noise not killing stuff. You get in and start hitting anything not green (and a few green ones too). Its the Orky way and I hope the designers see that when orks get redone.

 Phydox wrote:
Hears another idea. Space Marine Terminator squads use TH/SS to soak up hits. What if Orks could attach a mek to a squad that had similar armor saves. He just goes in front with some heavily armored grots to catch bullets.

Yeah that would be pretty cool. Maybe something like 2+/5++ with a few wounds (to soak up plenty of hits) and T 5 (so he's immune to most Instant Death weapons). Make him an Independent Character, so that he can use Look Out Sir to avoid anything he can't survive. You could make it so that he's also a really brutal close combat character too, with a S 10 AP 2 attack or something. Oh, and he could make Lootas able to fire on the move. That would be awesome. You could call him a 'battle-boss' or something like that...

Maybe a small stat change between Shoota Boys (followin' Mork) and Slugga Boys (followin' Mork), maybe?

Say,

Shoota Boys are WS 3, BS 3, Str 3, T 4, I 2, W 1, LD 6, SV 6+

Slugga Boys are WS 2, BS 2, Str 4, T 4, I 2, W 1, LD 7, SV 6+

(I know that the Slugga Boys getting WS 2 will rub people the wrong way, but it reflects the wilder, offense-oriented, not defense-oriented style of Ork combat.)

Obviously, you get FNP on a 6, because that's Super Orky.

The once per game WAAAGH! would allow units to run and shoot, or run and assault (but not both), and improves the FNP save to a 5+ until your next turn.

Choppas don't need a special rule if you give Slugga Boys a Str 4, since the big problem was always against Marines... Wound 4+ and save 3+ (Str 4 with no special rules) is as reliable as the old wound on a 5+ save on a 4+ that was a uniquely weird way of modifying armor. It's also a little stronger against Imperial Guard, Eldar, and other forces that were oddly immune to Choppas before because of their weak armor.

You certainly have to figure out a good way to make big mobs of boys on foot alluring again, however, as opposed to all the usual trukk mobs which, while cool, should be a playstyle, not the ONLY playstyle.

Fixing Ork assault is tough. Going against the Orks you have MANY factors.

- Wound removal from the front
- Overwatch
- Challenges
- Bad initiative value (compounded with no Initiative bonus for Furious Charge).

All of these combined make it such that even if Orks are able to make it into combat, they'll still get cut down by all armies (the only armies they go at the same time as is Necrons and Tau).

You can't fix Wound Removal. You can do a few things to possibly fix it:
- Make Orks faster so they get into combat sooner (Fleet, Run and Assault ability)
- Make Orks tougher so they can weather casualties (KFF invuln save, FNP ability)

Overwatch is somewhat similar to Wound Removal. You can't really fix it, unless you give the Orks a super-ability that makes them take less casualties from Overwatch (Orks have a 4+ invuln save from Overwatch wounds, can re-roll saves from Overwatch wounds, or something similar)

Challenges you could fix by either changing the stats of Ork wargear to allow them to survive a challenge, or giving them a special rule to either a) refuse a challenge and still fight and/or b) have challenge wounds be able to apply to other squad members

Bad Initiative you could fix by either giving Orks a new rule or a Waaagh! modification giving them a D3 Initiative boost when they charge into combat (with all of nerfs to close combat, Orks deserve to go FIRST in combat at least some of the time. Initiative 5 Orks on the charge would be pretty fearsome!)

Take a look at more of the moderate books like the Marine Books, and make any assumptions off of that. Tau/Eldar have gotten some pretty fearsome buffs; however, Tau and Eldar had worse codices than the Orks have now.

I can see:

KFFs giving Shrouded instead of 5+ Cover. Sure, Eldar and Tau ignore cover, but two armies doesn't mean they are going to get start giving everyone Invulnerable saves.

Making Weirdboyz more useful to the army. Probably generate powers at the start of the game, like normal psykers, and have an Ork power list like the Tyranids do. Perhaps have a power that allows them to cast an additional Waagh?

Kanz/Dreadz getting a slight point reduction, to bring them into line with Space Marine Dreadnoughts. However, being in line with crap still makes you crap. Edition of the MC, 6th is.

All boyz get a 6+ FNP instead of the armor save. I've seen it save a lot of Iron Hands back at the store, so, I'm willing to bet it'll save a lot of boyz.

I can see them giving Choppas an AP of 5, but nothing else. However, they also didn't give Chainswords an AP or Shred, and both make sense from a fluff point of view. (Of course, Fluff =/ Rules, but...)

Ork mobility is a touchy issue; if you run a green tide, most TAC lists aren't going to have enough bullets to put down over a hundred Orks at 1500. If you make those hundred Orks faster on foot, it gives the shooting army an even smaller chance. At the moment, the trade off for mobility is numbers.

I'd suggest giving Trukks a built in Cover Save (or even Invulnerable) due to their Ramshackle nature, rather than the table they have now. An extra, non essential doodad that the Mek added on took the shot instead of the Engine or the Red Paint. (A 5+ Invuln?) Not Wagons, however, as they have a higher armor as it is.

Of course, I imagine any 'competitive' list would still be Bikers. I imagine they'd get a price drop to fall into line, and perhaps let a Warboss on a bike take Warbikers as troops in addition to his Nob squad he gets to take. (If they keep the squad of nobz that move to troops.)

I really feel like it is going to be hard to 'fix' orks for 6th, and I'm really afraid that any 'fixes' will screw up the fluff, or boost heavily used units (lootas, shoota boys) just as much as the struggling ones.

I'm not sure how GW didn't see something this basic, but:

disallowing consolidating into a second combat
disallowing first turn assaults
disallowing most (with the exception of Zagstrukk) deep strike assaults
disallowing disembarking and assaulting (with assault vehicle exceptions)

combined with random charge ranges, AND free Overwatch (snap shooting)really served to totally bone assault based armies. I can totally understand either random charge ranges, or Overwatch fire, but BOTH?

Mechanically, Overwatch is there to mitigate against the IGO-UGO nature of 40K, so that units don't get assaulted without any opportunity to fire short ranged weapons. That's totally a valid concept, but there's no downside to Overwatch (sure, you hit less, but they are extra free shots). There's no other option for units which don't shoot, have poor shooting, or which would prefer to do something other than shoot. If you had an actual set of charge responses, say:

Overwatch: as listed
Stand your ground: no overwatch, but enemy does not get bonus attacks for charging
Flee! Subtract d6 from enemy charge range (to represent the difficulty of engaging an enemy which withdraws)
Counter-charge: add d6 to enemy charge range, but both units count as charging (giving melee-oriented troops a boost)

Then, overwatch might be better, since it would be a choice, not an automatic benefit for shooters.

On top of the overwatch, they added random charge ranges, which ALSO mechanically serve to mitigate an IGO-UGO system (you don't need BOTH). A failed charge is just a way for the game to represent "you didn't get to fight these guys before they got to do something". But now, troops being charged get to shoot at you, and THEN, you might fail the charge and get shot at again!

On top of that, they preserved (or expanded) prohibitions against many types of rapid assaults (out of transports, from board edges, from another combat, from Deep Strike), all of which would be adequately represented by the random charge range mechanic too (or a variation thereof). Maybe charging from the board edge would be 2d6, take the highest (or lowest)?
Instead, all of these assaults are banned, and then, on top of that ban, the random charge range, and the Overwatch rules, mean that, for instance, troops emerging from a board edge might take four 'rounds' of shooting before being able to assault people RIGHT NEAR THEM:

Kommandos appear on board, and cannot assault.
Enemy shoots at them on his turn.
Kommandos declare a charge.
Enemy shoots Overwatch at them.
Kommandos roll poorly on charge range.
Enemy shoots at them on his turn.
Kommandos declare second charge attempt.
Enemy shoots overwatch at them.

Even with minimal charge distances and good rolls, the Kommandos have to weather two 'rounds' of shooting, no matter what.

I just think the mechanics of 6th edition fundamentally nerf assaults in favor of shooting. I can see how scads of special rules might help mitigate that, but they are covering up an underlying problem, in that GW saw a real problem (assault hopping) and haphazardly applied multiple fixes to a single problem.

Having said all that ( ), I hate, hate, hate army-wide FNP for the orks. There's just nothing in the background to suggest that the average ork shrugs off autocannon rounds occasionally.

I'd like to see:

Dying Blow: In melee, engaged ork models make their full attacks, even if killed in a previous initiative step (though they cannot make a consolidation move on their initiative step).
This would represent orks fighting on even after they were dead, and it would also serve to boost Slugga boys vs. Shoota boys. It would also make PK Nobs a bit scarier to challenge (as they might kill you no matter what).

Choppa: AP6 (the most common ork weapon goes through the most common Ork armor. Hmmm...)
Big Choppa AP4 (which gives this weapon more reason to be taken)
Power Klaw: given the mass of ork Nobs and Warbosses (even if their S4 is the same as a marine S4), Power Klaws DO NOT go at initiative 1. Maybe -1 intiative, but there's no reason that the massive Power Klaw of an ork has to work exactly like a power fist. This would differentiate Ork Nobs from Marine Sergeants and the like, and make challenging a dedicated ork fighter a slightly worse idea. Maybe Power Klaws go at Initiative 2?

Eliminate the current rules for the Waaagh.It doesn't seem to work particularly welll, nor does it represent any part of the Ork background very well. I don't have a good rule replacement, but it should:

represent orkish eagerness to engage in combat
occur relatively early in the battle (don't most ork fights START with a Waaagh?)
Push the orks forward towards the enemy a meaningful amount
Allow an assault (what's the point otherwise?)
have the drawback of pulling ork units out of position (not grot units), so that a Waaagh might be detrimental to your lootas, for example

Perhaps you could replace a single Waaagh with unit specific Waaagh checks. Every turn, each ork unit could make a mob size check (if desired) and, if successful, could run and assault that turn. This would allow shooty orks to hold a desired position, and it would also serve to boost shoota boys, as well as differentiate Dreads (who are orks, and can Waagh) from Killa Kans (who are grots and cannot). You would have to come up with some way to make Dreads able to check (but that should be easy).

Reintroduce Mobbing Up. I think this was one of the easiest ways to represent the resilience of orkish morale, and it was easy to do on the tabletop too. The unit that is
'absorbed' is considered destroyed for all rule purposes (Kill Points, Victory Points, First Blood, whatever).

Strength in Numbers. Allow the number of orks to OVERRIDE the leadership value, not replace it. Anything which modifies leadership does NOT modify the number of orks for this purpose.

Kommandos have Tankbusta bombs. Given that they had them in the last rulebook, and the current models STILL HAVE THEM, this was a dumb change.

Ork Walkers are poorly armored, but ramshackle and highly redundant in operation. Give Kans 3 Hull Points, and Dreads 4 Hull Points. It might be easy to shoot stuff off of them, but they take a beating. Boost the Mega Dreads as well. This is already a factor in the Stompa (which has many more hull points than other Super-Heavies, even though its armor is fairly light). I would also boost Buggies if they get a new model which isn't tiny.

Orks used to have a higher Strategy rating just for the purpose of determining who went first (otherwise they had a fairly low strategy rating for determining who choose the scenario, etc). Allow orks to reroll (or force a reroll) on Seizing the initiative, because their inherent battlelust often takes opponents off guard.

One of the previous Ork wishlist threads had a cool concept for the WAAAGH - essentially when you do it, roll 2d6 and add the number of charging/stuck in ork mobs to determine the bonus you get.

I'd be keen on pretty much universal, built in invulns for Ork vehicles as per the Grot tank rules, and *something* that stops Sluggas from trudging all the way across the map and then getting killed in an INT step before they swing

I'd like to say it once again. Orkses DO work in 6. But only with battlewagon spam and nob bikers. The problem lies not entirely within our codex (which showed to be truly robust to edition changes and new 'better and cheaper' stuff in new codexes) but within the poor writing of core rules of the 6'th edition book. Just take a look from such perspective:

What strong components are we supposed to have in the first place?
-Fairly resilient numerous footslogging horde that's quite potent in mellee and has some shooting potential (slugaboyz, shootaboyz)
-Spammable hardy assault transports (battlewagonz)
-Fast and cheap but paper-thin spammable assault transports (trucks)
-Spammable cheap walkers with medium durability and good cc potential (kanz, deffdreadz)
-Expensive but hard-hiting mellee-oriented elite fighters (nobz of all sorts)

That was meant to be the core of our armies in the first place with other stuff acting as support we might need (lootas, tankbustas, burnas, big gunz, grots to give cover and protect from counter-charge or sit on points, commandoes for some nasty flank-harrasement etc.)
And to tell the truth, it all worked in 4-th and even in 5-th. But what happened with 6 ed. And don't look only at our codex. Look at all of them!

-Footslogging hordes don't work in almost ANY codex cause of a general shooting buff and cover debuff. Besides, death of the closest models slows them down and further nerfs the mellee-oriented combat. The only footslogging horde that might work vs non-top lists are guard blobs with allies - but note that they can hold only due to considerable buffing that general hordes can't recieve.
-Fast and cheap assault transports don't work either. Just because they can't survive past turn 1 no matter how many you bring. That's cause of how shooty-oriented meta has become. And that people now pack s6-7 weapons in dozens. And even if a few trucks makes it there - they don't bring enough bodies.
-Walkers with previously medium durability are garbage now. I bet you know why. Especially mellee-oriented. Only the extra-shooty or sturdy walkers still remain. We were not designed for such walkers in the first place.

So...We're basically left with spammable assault transports (battlewagons) and Expensive elitist's mellee fighters (biker nobz, nobz/meganobz in wagonz). See what i mean? Stuff that no longer works for us don't work for everyone else. While stuff that works extra good like mc spam, super-shooty long-ranged stuff, mass cover-ignoring guns and abilities - this all is just not avaliable for us. Yep, lootas are quite shooty and boast awesome damage output and meta-appropriate. But that's until the moment they meet something with ignore cover.

I do feel that we need a slight buff like armywide pointdrop and/or fnp, waaagh improvement and so on. Simple little non-gamebreaking buffs. But i'd not expect a mass walker return or chopaboy'z greentide to see the board until we get rethinking and rewriting of BRB.

I really like one of Da Butcha's basic comments here: The Waaagh!

I started playing Orks in 4th Edition, and from what I can tell, until their 4th Edition codex, they never had the Waaagh! rule. The 4th Edition codex introduced the concept of "Running" to the game, which was unique to Orks, and then gave the Orks a one-time run-Assault ability. Granted giving the Orks a "Run" ability was pretty much a precursor to giving it to EVERYBODY in 5th Edition.

In every wishlist thread, you see everybody (myself included) coming up with ways to "fix" the Waaagh!. But I think Da Butcha has it better. Forget about the Waaagh! It's broken, and the reason for introducing it in the first place is old news. The 6th Edition Ork codex doesn't NEED a Waaagh! rule. We should fix our army without it.

Capt-Crapulence wrote:
Given the Semi-fungal nature of the Ork physique, a 6+ FnP makes perfect sense. Certainly from a fluff point of view at least.

I can't find the page or passage, but I remember reading a section of the Ork Codex that said Orks are innately Psychic.
So from a Fluff perspective, I think all Orks getting +1 to Deny the Witch Rolls makes sense.
whether it's due to their low-level psychic nature, or their simplicity of mind lol ... after all, how can you Mind-F*ck a mind that is already f*cked

I love this, both because of the fluff explanation and because it gives Orks the exact equivalent of Adepta Sororitas "Shield of Faith." Which is hilarious. And makes me think of an Ork in drag, covered in fleur-de-lis, standing next to a Sister of Battle who's looking him up and down with an expression of profound skepticism. "I can't put my finger on it, but there's something about her that seems off..."

Murrdox wrote:
I really like one of Da Butcha's basic comments here: The Waaagh!

I started playing Orks in 4th Edition, and from what I can tell, until their 4th Edition codex, they never had the Waaagh! rule. The 4th Edition codex introduced the concept of "Running" to the game, which was unique to Orks, and then gave the Orks a one-time run-Assault ability. Granted giving the Orks a "Run" ability was pretty much a precursor to giving it to EVERYBODY in 5th Edition.

In every wishlist thread, you see everybody (myself included) coming up with ways to "fix" the Waaagh!. But I think Da Butcha has it better. Forget about the Waaagh! It's broken, and the reason for introducing it in the first place is old news. The 6th Edition Ork codex doesn't NEED a Waaagh! rule. We should fix our army without it.

Y'know, I'm willing to accept this.

Here's a question, however: The Ork Clans. Do you want them to return, kinda like Eldar Craftworlds or Marine chapters, with rules and restrictions, or should they be like Tyranid Hivefleets and give you a narrative but nothing on the actual tabletop? Are the Orks better off having put Snakebites/Goffs/etc behind them? Should there be a default 'Goffik Style' Ork mode, then allow the other Clans after that?

What say the lads?

Wakshaani wrote:


Here's a question, however: The Ork Clans. Do you want them to return, kinda like Eldar Craftworlds or Marine chapters, with rules and restrictions, or should they be like Tyranid Hivefleets and give you a narrative but nothing on the actual tabletop? Are the Orks better off having put Snakebites/Goffs/etc behind them? Should there be a default 'Goffik Style' Ork mode, then allow the other Clans after that?

What say the lads?

Sure thing! We need clanz for moar customization and to ally orkses with orkses.

If you turn overwatch into suppressive fire, against leadership.
mob rule gives fearless. so orks wouldn't be suppressed till numbers fell below 11.
buffs korne berserkers aswell.