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Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Simply a turn of phrase.

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Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

As you asked me to look at it... at first glance I like it.

I especially like the vehicle additions-- I only wish there was less of a focus on superheavies.

Other than that, I think it's a good clip-on addition to the current codex. More marine-like tech than I'd use, but it's a personal preference.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/23 02:40:53


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Thanks. I love superheavies, so that's an easy rabbit hole for me to plunge down.....

Meanwhile, back at the lowly 3-ppm level, I'm pondering people's suggestions on how to change Exterminators. Some options for consideration -- note that One Use Only and Gets Hot apply to all.

1) Current way: hand flamers (S:3 AP:6). Upside: fiery! Downside: holy feth that's a lot of templates, a potential issue for both balance and ease of play -- unless you put limits on how many the unit may take, which turns them into another special weapon and doesn't reflect the original fluff.

2) Old way: the original Zealots rules have them as one-shot weapons that fire a single S:4 AP:5 shot the first time the unit charges. (They also have crazy to-hit rules we'll ignore). We could implement these as an extra melee attack -- perhaps at a higher Initiative.
Upside: simpler and less overpowered than templates, but still useful for a bunch of lousy S:3 models.
Downside: less colorful.

3) Old way, modified: Same stats as the old rules, but make them a short-range Assault 1 weapon, say 6" or 8" (possibly with the restriction you must then charge what you shot at).
Upside: useful, reflects fluff, doesn't require special rules about going at higher Initiative.
Downside: too shooty?

4) Pretre's way: a unit equipped with Exterminators has Hammer of Wrath. That means an extra melee attack (as per 2) at I:10 at S:3 AP:-.
Upside: Simplest of all. Still useful because a lot of opponents (Marines, Eldar) will kill Frateris before the Initiative 3 step rolls around.
Downside: S:4 AP:-.

Thoughts?

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Don't forget wall of death for my way.

Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
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Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






I like the idea of making the Exterminator usable in overwatch, but outright Wall of Death is pretty powerful -- making it arguably more powerful on the defense than Hammer of Wrath is on the offense. Is there a way to do a dialed-down Wall of Death? (Strange sentence to write, I know).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/23 03:52:08


BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Give them hammer of wrath when they charge or are charged.

Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench






I was just about to suggest the same thing (+edit+ i.e. his initial suggestion of wall of death when charged, hammer of wrath when charging) as pretre. It's a fitting, quick, and gives a unique flavour to a unit.

While wall of death might seem very powerful on the face of it, it's something the opponent has to activate. It basically helps the Frateris militia with their role, and encourages the SoB player to use them defensively rather than aggressively, which stops the unit becoming a 'zerg-rush'.

In this way, the character of them as dangerous fired-up civilians rather than a decent military unit is played-up. From a gameplay point of view, it also streamlines the unit in terms of dicerolling. This – again – helps the focus to be on the sisters, rather than the auxiliary militia.

On average, a full unit of thirty with this upgrade cause 60 S4 Ap- hits when being assaulted. This sounds scary – it'd wipe out a charging unit of marines easily – but in practise, the unit is likely to have taken a large number of casualties. Even if charged by the theoretical ten-man unit of marines, they'll have lost the best part of ten militia to a volley of bolt pistol fire supported by a frag grenade. Against a mob of thirty orks etc., even more will be lost.

It's more likely that the effect will be to scare the marine player into not charging, in which case he'll rapid fire into the unit and probably cause the best part of fifteen casualties on your militia.

If you're still concerned about the power of it, tweaks might be to make it one-use only – simple to keep track of if the whole unit is forced to do it at once – and/or remove a frateris militiaman (with no inflicted hits) on any WoD roll of 1. With the latter tweak, you cause an average of 55 S4 Ap- hits and cause 5 casualties on yourself.

However, I'd encourage you to keep it just as WoD is in the rules. It sounds scary on paper, but I think it'd be more use psychologically than in reality.

+++
As a general note, I've flicked through your playtesting notes for a while now, and this is a great work you've produced. I don't agree with every decision you've made, but you should be very proud of what you've already achieved. Great job!

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/12/23 12:27:44


+Death of a Rubricist+
My miniature painting blog.
 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Thanks for the compliment! As for Wall of Death, that seems like it's twice as good as Hammer of Wrath, on average -- two hits per model instead of one -- which means the Frateris Militia become better on the defensive than on the offense. That seems odd for a bunch of crazed but brittle fanatics.

I'm more tempted by Hammer of Wrath when charging OR being charged, which balances it out. Then of course the Frateris also have Rage, which favors the offensive.

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator






The Midlands

Sooo much cool in this it's hard to know where to start! But my main point of criticism is this...

Exorcist Missile Pod: 15 points
The Exorcist Missile Launcher is a venerable and beloved weapon, but there are never enough to go around. So the Sisterhood has found ways to jury-rig its sacred and temperamental missiles to be fired individually from launch rails or even from the armored shoulder of a particularly brave Battle Sister.
An Exorcist Missile Pod counts as a choice from the Heavy Weapons List for Adepta Sororitas units. It is also available on some vehicles.
Each unit that has Exorcist Missile Pods must choose one of the following profiles for all its pods:
Fiery Hammer: 48" S:8 AP:1 Heavy 1, One Use Only
Flaming Halo: 36" S:6 AP:4 Small Blast, Ignores Cover, Heavy 1, One Use Only
Falling Angel: 60" S:7 AP:3 Skyfire, Interceptor, Heavy 1, One Use Only
Infinite Mercy: 72" S:6 AP:3 Heavy 1, One Use Only


You're going to give dozens of units on the board the opportunity to Intercept flyers!??

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/23 18:35:20


 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Yes, potentially every Battle Sister Squad could take a one-shot Skyfire missile as its Heavy Weapon choice; a Retributor Squad or Sororitas Command Squad could take four. It's a bit like giving all your Tac Marines and Devastators missile launchers with the Flak upgrade -- only the Sisters only get one shot. I think (I may be wrong) that limitation keeps it balanced, along with the opportunity cost of giving up a multi-melta or heavy flamer.

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Gimlet-Eyed Inquisitorial Acolyte




Calixis Sector

Missile Launchers don't have a 60" range or Interceptor. The problem is you can load up all your Troops with an Exorcist Missile Launcher and completely nullify a Drop Pod or Valkyire in the same phase it arrives on the table. It has enough range that even having your troops on different edges of the board won't matter much, and interceptor means it fires in your opponent's movement phase not your shooting phase. You don't even lose much by taking it as a heavy weapon on Battle Sisters because you want Dominions for Tank Hunting and you can throw a Flamer or Combi-weapon on the squad for most other situations.

Zealots should be scary they're a Mob of unruly Gentlemen. If you throw in Uriah Jacobus you can have a mob of 30 Fearless Zealots that Feel No Pain with 120 attacks on the charge that re-roll failed to hits. They most definitely can be used offensively. If you really want to sink some points in to your Ecclesiarchy Death Star you can upgrade them all to Redemptionists for 150 attacks on the charge and the addition of Shred and Furious Charge.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/23 20:00:52


   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

Ah, but flakk missiles don't have Interceptor.

As for the Exterminators, there is in fact a defensive equivalent to Hammer of Wrath - Counter-Attack. So, whhy not make them a S4AP5 Hammer of Wrath attack, and grant Counter-Attack. Not as effective on the defence, but they're not designed for that kind of usage anyway.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Why do man-portable missile pods have longer range than an exorcist? Or is that longer on the first page as well?

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Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Yeah, i'm also curious as ot that. I don't see a section for the exorcist's base mode to be modified.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Good thoughts on Frateris. As for Exorcists, there is indeed an option for multiple ammo types on the vehicle-mounted version as well (it's under both Vehicle Wargear and the individual entries for anything that has the Exorcist Missile Launcher):

Alternative Exorcist Ammunition: free
While the principal role of the Exorcist remains that of tank-killer and monster-hunter, the adaptable Adepta Sororitas -- with lavish Ecclesiarchal funding -- have sponsored the rediscovery of alternative missiles that let the Sisterhood's sole artillery weapon play multiple roles. Most common among them are the "Flaming Halo," a heavy fuel-air-explosive warhead for purging medium infantry; "Falling Angel," which trades a smaller warhead for more fuel and better targeting; and "Infinite Mercy," which trades weight of explosive for fuel to extend the range.
Any Sororitas unit armed with an Exorcist Missile Launcher may replace its standard ammunition with one of the alternatives below. This substitution costs no points, but it changes the weapon's profile completely: The launcher's complex system of tubes doesn't allow for switching ammo types mid-battle!
You must make clear before deployment whether any Exorcist Missile Launcher is using alternative ammunition. If you fail to do so, you must use the standard profile.
Flaming Halo: 36" S:6 AP:4 Small Blast, Ignores Cover, Heavy D6
Falling Angel: 60" S:7 AP:3 Skyfire, Interceptor, Heavy D6
Infinite Mercy: 72" S:6 AP:3 Heavy D6


Now, Interceptor on the anti-aircraft version may well be too much.

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

I don't think I'd ever trade for those ammunition types in a TAC list. They are neat, but just don't hold a candle to S8 AP1 D6.

Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
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Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Arguably -- but you could also argue that the Sisters have plenty of other places to get S:8 AP:1. What they're desperately short of is long-ranged firepower of any kind (i.e. ranges greater than 36"). You could write a list where you relying on Fast Attack with melta to kill tanks -- Dominions or my homebrew Thrones (bikers) and Victoria (Sororitas Vendetta) -- and used the Exorcists for crowd-control (the Blast & Ignores Cover rounds) or long-range sniping (the 72" version). I'd agree Skyfire is pretty specialized, but in a large game or a flyer-heavy meta you might want a devoted anti-air Exorcist.

Which brings me back to the question of Interceptor: Is it OP? Remember the statline currently is
Falling Angel: 60" S:7 AP:3 Skyfire, Interceptor, (Heavy 1 One Use Only)/(Heavy 1D6) (depending on whether it's a one-shot missile pod or a full scale Exorcist Missile Launcher)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/24 00:34:17


BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Strictly better than a combi weapon but I probably wouldn't take them over meltas.

Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Interceptor: looking at other Imperial units (see below), it seems this SR applies only to specialized fortification-mounted weapons, so the anti-air Exorcist variant probably shouldn't have it.

Imperium-wide:
Missile launcher w/ flakk missiles: no Interceptor
Icarus Lascannon (Single, Twin, Quad): YES Interceptor
Quad Gun: YES

Guard:
Hydra w/ Hydra Autocannon: no

Marines:
Stalker w/ Icarus storm cannon array: no
Hunter w/ Skyspear missile launcher: no

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker





While I love my old Sister's Army Especially as allies for Fluff. I think This is a little to over the top. We need our Land Raider Back with more capacity due to Sister's being Smaller for our Assault Vehicle. Maybe a Flier and a few rules bumps maybe if the heavy weapons squad (Ret's) does not move they gain Sky fire that is about it. Maybe gain a Missile Launcher for the Ret's in the new plastic kit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/27 10:23:40


Some Must Be Told. Others Must Be Shown.
Blood Angels- 15000
Dark Angels-7800
Sisters of Battle- 5000
Space Wolves- 5000 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Over the top is admittedly my favorite place to be (ahem 3,000-point Churchtank ahem), and 30 units is in fact more than the total number in the current codex (22, I think?). But I think the Sisters deserve the same diversity of options as the Astartes and the Imperial Guard.

If folks could point to specific units they think are over the top, I'm absolutely willing to discuss toning things down. (E.g. I'm going to cut Interceptor from the anti-aircraft version of the Exorcist). Fire at will!

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I'm still skeptical about the bike, personally; first off +1 to Jink saves is really the important part of Skilled Rider, if you wanted them to be good but not that good I'd give them the terrain benefits but not the Jink bonus. Secondly SM characters are paying 35pts for a bike because they're getting T5 out of it, your Canoness is still getting doubled out by scatter lasers. I'd prefer the +1 T stay with the bike (note also that's a common characteristic of every bike everywhere, I get that you want it to be lighter and less sturdy but when Eldar jetbikes give +1 T that logic doesn't work so well) and/or it get a price drop. (Also your compilation of special rules would make a Sororitas bikers unit T3 Black Knights with worse guns, I don't think that makes it particularly distinct).

I like the buff bubble approach to the Relics, but I'm less sure about a relic section where the cheapest item is sixty points and goes on a T3 character, consider sticking cheaper items/durability in?

I might suggest poking through the 30k Consuls rules for Palatines; I like the versatile roles you've given the Canoness, and I like the Palatine as an aide instead of a character alone, but right now it doesn't look like the Palatine does much but tank challenges for the Canoness. The Centurion in 30k is conceptually similar, but then you can give him an upgrade not unlike how you've arranged the Canoness' Records of Service that changes his loadout and gives him special rules to serve a different role on the field.

Have just skimmed it at this point but I'm sure I will have more to say later.

Postscript: Also I have a model suggestion for anyone who wants to field a character in a Chariot of Fire: http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Servath+Reznik,+Wrath+of+Ages

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

Also, after staring contemplatively at my flock of Valkyries, I have trouble seeing how a side-mounted weapon world work on the model. I mean, wouldn't you hit the wing? I'm working on a 'Vanguard' aerial missile platform for the Guard, which fires forward, made possible actually having techpriests to re-build the chassis around the missle launcher.


There are real-world gunships with side-mounted weapons (notably chainguns). They work by simply banking over the target area, wing tilted down towards the target, raining hot death at 6000 rpm onto some poor bastard. Though in most cases, the wings don't sit below the weapons. You could avoid this problem on the Vendetta and the Valkyrie by having them mounted inside the hull forward of the wings, though it would probably be easier, from a logistics standpoint, to pod mount them where the lascannons are currently found on the wings.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/27 20:39:30


It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






A side-mounted chaingun you could get away with on a Valkyrie. A side-mounted multiple rocket launcher, I'm sad to say, would blow your wing off most of the time.

Now, to Anomander Rake's excellent comments:


 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm still skeptical about the bike, personally; first off +1 to Jink saves is really the important part of Skilled Rider, if you wanted them to be good but not that good I'd give them the terrain benefits but not the Jink bonus. Secondly SM characters are paying 35pts for a bike because they're getting T5 out of it, your Canoness is still getting doubled out by scatter lasers. I'd prefer the +1 T stay with the bike (note also that's a common characteristic of every bike everywhere, I get that you want it to be lighter and less sturdy but when Eldar jetbikes give +1 T that logic doesn't work so well) and/or it get a price drop. (Also your compilation of special rules would make a Sororitas bikers unit T3 Black Knights with worse guns, I don't think that makes it particularly distinct).


One correction: Sororitas Bikes do get the +1 T, just by virtue of having the Bike unit type, and the entry for Thrones does give them T:4. (I did go back and forth on this a lot before folks convinced me to stick with the standard rules.) That's still not a Marine Biker's T:5, but at least Scatter Lasers and other S:6 weapons are not inflicting Instant Death on Sisters on bikes.
Interesting point about which part of Skilled Rider matters most; taking away the Jink save bonus and keeping the "automatically passes Dangerous Terrain tests" would probably be in keeping with the cross-country scouting mission of Thrones. I might just make that change, thanks.
I'm not too worried about excessive similarity with the Dark Angel's Black Knights: They strike me (pun not intended) as brutally capable in melee, which Sororitas bikers are not. Conversely, Sororitas Bikers have an Act of Faith that lets them pretend to be basically Eldar Jetbikes for a turn, which BKs can't.


 AnomanderRake wrote:
I like the buff bubble approach to the Relics, but I'm less sure about a relic section where the cheapest item is sixty points and goes on a T3 character, consider sticking cheaper items/durability in?


Yes, I suppose putting an Order Relic on a character who doesn't also have the Mantle of Ophelia is probably asking for trouble. (Probably I should add a line making absolutely clear that a model can take an Order Relic in addition to a "normal" Relic). Now, two of the six are shooting weapons, but the other four do require the bearer to get into close combat to get the most out of the Relic.
The reason the Relics cost so much is that they're a backdoor way of getting "Order Traits": Instead of saying "hey, my whole army gets this buff for free because Space Marines do," you pay a hefty price for basically a bubble of Chapter Tactics. But they may make the bearer too huge a target.
I'll have to ponder..... What do others think?


 AnomanderRake wrote:
I might suggest poking through the 30k Consuls rules for Palatines; I like the versatile roles you've given the Canoness, and I like the Palatine as an aide instead of a character alone, but right now it doesn't look like the Palatine does much but tank challenges for the Canoness. The Centurion in 30k is conceptually similar, but then you can give him an upgrade not unlike how you've arranged the Canoness' Records of Service that changes his loadout and gives him special rules to serve a different role on the field.


An interesting idea. The Palatine is the only unit beside the Canoness that can carry a Book of Acts, but otherwise she is a bit barebones. I don't own the 30K books, so I'd love if someone could link me to a review or summary that tells me more about how Centurions and Consuls work -- just enough to get inspired, not to copy the rules wholesale.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/28 02:05:45


BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 SisterSydney wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
I might suggest poking through the 30k Consuls rules for Palatines; I like the versatile roles you've given the Canoness, and I like the Palatine as an aide instead of a character alone, but right now it doesn't look like the Palatine does much but tank challenges for the Canoness. The Centurion in 30k is conceptually similar, but then you can give him an upgrade not unlike how you've arranged the Canoness' Records of Service that changes his loadout and gives him special rules to serve a different role on the field.


An interesting idea. The Palatine is the only unit beside the Canoness that can carry a Book of Acts, but otherwise she is a bit barebones. I don't own the 30K books, so I'd love if someone could link me to a review or summary that tells me more about how Centurions and Consuls work -- just enough to get inspired, not to copy the rules wholesale.


I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to post complete rules here but the bones follow:

Legion Centurion. Statline roughly equal to what Chaplains and Librarians have in the current C:SM, plenty of wargear options. A Centurion may purchase one (and only one) Consul upgrade from the following list:
Chaplain. Crozius, Zealot.
Master of Signal. More limited wargear, but he can call off-map artillery.
Champion. +WS, master-crafted weapon, improved challenges.
Vigilator. Swaps gear for Scout-oriented equipment, he gets a special-ammo bolter and the Sniper rule, he does a pre-game attack on a single enemy unit (older folks in the audience will remember this from the old Callidus and Codex: Craftworlds)
Librarian. ML and force weapon.
Forge Lord. Techmarine repair rules, Artificer armour, and the servo-arm/harness
Primus Medicae. Narthecium and you can reclaim VPs from destroyed units in kill point missions.
Siege Breaker. Tank Hunters to himself and any unit he joins plus access to phosphex weapons for the army.
Moritat. Two pistols, Scout, and whenever he hits with a shooting attack he makes an extra shooting attack.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
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Lots of interesting upgrade options there, thanks. I did a little googling on Consuls as well.

The trick will be keeping Palatine upgrades useful but cheap: they shouldn't outshine the Canoness or pile too many points on a T:3 W:2 model. But they shouldn't all just be toned-down versions of Canoness "Records of Service."

I really want a Palatine who's an "Imperial Guard Liaison" and can call in artillery support from offboard IG (or PDF) batteries, since the Sisters don't have their own Barrage weapons. 15 points as an upgrade to an existing model, based on the cost for buying an IG Master of Ordnance?

Perhaps also a Fleet Liaison Palatine to grant Reserve roll manipulation?

A Palatine Hospitaller who grants her squad Feel No Pain for an extra 15 points (or even an enhanced version of FNP, though that'd get pricey) would also be pretty cool, allowing you to bring FNP to units that aren't Command Squads or Repentia.

Since these are all supporting roles, it also makes sense they wouldn't be upgrades available for a Canoness.

Then "junior" versions of the Records of Service would be maybe Furious Charge (Celestian), Twin-linked shooting (Vigil - infiltrate seems too powerful), Scout & Access to Special Weapons (Dominion), Shred on shooting attacks & access to dual pistols (Seraphim), Skilled Rider (Throne), Relentless & access to Heavy Weapons (Retributor).

But I'd love more suggestions.

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
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Not sure how much else I can get out of the lore. Diving back into Inquisition content would be pointless since you could just take an Inquisitor, there isn't much in the Dark Heresy content that isn't already here. Possibly a Palatine Dialogus that plays up the loremistress angle and gives her squad Preferred Enemy against one army book?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
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Calixis Sector

Your Canoness and Palatine are too complicated as is. Records of Service and Order Relics give them too many options. Both of them are unnecessary, but if you must keep records of service, I'd split the Canoness into different HQ choices.

Horus Heresy isn't a good baseline to use for the complexity of the Sisters standard HQ choice.

The problem is compounded by the Palatine being a slotless buff HQ along with the Canoness.

Sisters of Battle also don't need backdoor Chapter Tactics. They're Acts of Faith are enough rules already. It would be like throwing multiple Chapter Tactic choices onto Grey Knights on top of them all being Psykers.

Everything Dark Heresy has to say about Palatines is right here:
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/dark-heresy/pdf/support/heresy-begets-retribution-hi-res.pdf
They're field commanders tasked with leading an army in the absence or in addition to the leader of the Order.

In my codex I kept everything simple. The Canoness costs 55 points generates 3 Faith Points, can take multiple relics, a Mantle of Ophelia, and a Jump Pack. The Palatine has access to everything the Canoness does, except the Jump Pack. She's also limited to 2 wounds, only has Weapon Skill 4, and generates 2 Faith Points instead of 3. They also have different Act of Faith boosts the Canoness getting Hatred while using The Passion (+2 to Initiative) and the Palatine adds +1 to Combat results while using Righteous Frenzy (Rage).

My Palatine is meant to be a cost effective Canoness, she's the most point effective model for Faith Points and the cheapest way to get a Sororitas Command Squad. However the Palatine's in a tight niche, you wouldn't want to take any upgrades because otherwise you'd want to take a Canoness for 25 points more. She also makes a good co-squad captain along with a Canoness in a Sororitas Command Squad with her Act of Faith.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/29 07:53:36


   
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Somewhere...

 SisterSydney wrote:

xalvissx wrote:Is there any way to make the Penitent Brute and Ironhide not just cheaper and worse version of Ogryn ? I think there should be some special features to make them stand out from Ogryn other than point cost. For example, Ironhide has a 4+ armour save, while Brute gets Rampage. And I think it will be fun to allow the Abhumans to have an option to take a shield (made from concrete) that provide an Invulnerable save (6+ maybe ?) or combat drug system (additional attacks or FnP ?) with some penalties to it ?


Some very neat ideas here. I like 'em and will ponder. What do other folks think?


Well, I suggested this, so let me begin it

The stats and wargears for Ironhide, Brute and Abhuman change as follow:

Penitent Abhuman: WS:3 BS:3 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:3 A:3 Ld:5 Sv:6+ (25 ppm)
Special rules: Bulky, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Stubborn.
Wargear: replace Crude Maul with Flail (Melee, S+1, Two-handed)

Penitent Brutes: Stats unchanged (Upgrade costs 30 ppm)
Special rules: Add Rampage.
Wargear: Crude Maul; improvised armor

Penitent Ironhides: WS:3 BS:3 S:4 T:5 W:3 I:2 A:3 Ld:5 Sv:4+ (Upgrade costs 30 ppm)
Special rules: unchanged.
Wargear: Crude Maul; improvised armor.

Additional Options:
The entire mob may take any of the following:
- Ferrocrete shield: 5 points/model (+1 Sv, re-roll failed save of 1, -1A, Slow and Purposeful)
- Frenzon: 10 points/model (Choose if the unit use Frenzon at the beginning of the Assault Phase; if yes, the entire unit must use Frenzon. Each model gains D3+1 additional attacks, roll once for entire unit. If a 1 is rolled, the unit take one Wound with no save of any kind allowed.)
- Kalma: 10 points/model (Choose if the unit use Kalma at the beginning of the Assault Phase; if yes, the entire unit must use Kalma. Grants FnP 4+, -1 A and -1 I for one turn).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/29 16:08:05


   
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More good feedback than I could keep up with over the holiday. Let's start with

1. Abhumans
Some neat ideas for Abbies here. Whatever we figure out, I think we ought to make a Chaos version too....
I love the idea of having the various breeds all be unique, rather than different flavors of inferior Ogryn, but I'd try to keep the upgrades from costing quite so much, so my spin on Xalvissx's ideas is as follows:

Spoiler:

[Baseline] Penitent Abhuman: WS:3 BS:3 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:2 A:3 Ld:5 Sv:6+
Wargear: Crude Maul (Melee, S+2, Two-handed, Unwieldly); improvised armor
Special Rules: Furious Charge; Hammer of Wrath; Rage; Stubborn; Very Bulky

The entire Mob may be upgraded to a specific breed of Abhuman:
- Brutes (+1 Strength, Rampage*): +20 points per model
- Ironhides (+1 Toughness, Save 4+*): +20 pts per model
- Longshanks (Crusader and Fleet): +20 pts per model
- Ogryns (+1 Strength, +1 Toughness, +1 Wound): +30 pts per model

* Per Ovion (including some PMs), Rampage is a 10-point SR, and each +1 to armour save is worth +5.


I'm a little nervous about adding combat drugs and other wargear options on top of all the different breeds, since even I occasionally worry about ...


2. Complexity
I see J3f's point that I don't want to make Canonesses or Palatines (or Abhumans) a bewildering maze of overlapping options. But there is a question of design philosophy here: I'm not particularly fond of special characters, I prefer the ability to customize generic characters and then make up my OWN fluff.
I think the key for options is that they all have flavor and some tactical role. I think upgrades for the Palatine need to make her a useful adjunct to a Canoness, without making her cost as much or hit as hard.
I've given a few of my ideas for this above -- more suggestions?


3. Exterminators
I think Hammer of Wrath on offense and "makes a Hammer of Wrath attack as if it were the unit charging" on defense is the way to go.
Costing that out, Ovion-style:
Hammer of Wrath: +10
Defensive HoW: +10
Gets Hot on single-shot weapon: -5
Subtotal: +15
Divide by 5 for ordinary troops (remember Ovion's costs are per squad/IC): +3 points

Sound good?

4. Interceptor
I'm going to take it off the anti-aircraft Exorcist missile.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/29 20:12:45


BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
 
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