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Arctik_Firangi wrote:We get to see it on Saturday. It doesn't come out on Saturday.

And zoom, the point just went over your head.

Take a look at any company that markets entertainment products successfully, and they do it by releasing previews of their product ahead of time to build hype. This is because these kinds of luxury products are expensive. If you want people to put down that kind of money you have to build consumer momentum. That Metatron game probably costs a little more than half what this new GW game costs, and I was seeing shots of gameplay months before it came out.

It's like being a spoilt kid who can't unwrap his presents before Christmas, except that you don't actually have to take the present if you don't want it - and just buy something else instead.

Knock off the ad hominems already, will you?

GW is not my dad, and they aren't giving me a present. If they are giving the game to me, they can keep it secret all they want. If they expect me to pony up $115US for it, they better damn well give me the chance to see the product and evaluate it. "We're going to release something really cool but you can't know what it is but it's going to be a limited release so you better buy it right away as soon as we show it to you because if you stop to think we might be sold out!" is not going to get me to open my wallet. Actually, I tend to go the other way and clamp down my money, because that kind of secrecy makes me suspect the product is going to be a stinker. If it was a good product after all, surely letting us see it and make the decision for ourselves without the pressure of it being a limited release would be enough to sell it.

so when they announce something early people logically get really aggressive and begin to spew vitriol...

Speaking of aggression and spewing vitriol....

notprop wrote:The business arrangement you describe is pretty much how all shops operate isn't it?

No, it's not. Most companies will approach a stockist with samples of a product that they wish them to sell in their store or at least some pretty pictures of what the product looks like. Imagine a book publisher asking a book store to sell books without even giving the title of the book, its genre or any information at all....there are trade books for a reason. I think that so many of use are used to the cloak and dagger mentality of GW that we just assume that it's the same for the rest of the business world but I assure it, it most definitely is not.

To me, it's been more of a 10 page critique of GW's marketing strategies.

Relatively little has been said about the game itself

Flashman wrote:Relatively little has been said about the game itself

Not to be a pithy little bastard, but wouldn't that actually require us knowing something about the game beyond "It's a ship game!"?

Honestly, I think we've said everything possible about the game based on what little we know.

I'd love to discuss the rules, models, etc., but we don't HAVE that.

notprop wrote:Hmmm, 10 pages on an unseen board game suggests that there might be just a little bit of hype going on 12thronin.

The business arrangement you describe is pretty much how all shops operate isn't it?

Spulks release was not dissimilar to dreadfleet though, the main difference being that the SPulk
rumour mill was started allot earlier (by GW IMHO).

Nope. This is a "Order this product blind with no information about it. Go ahead and tie up several hundred dollars of stock and it'll sell. Trust me." delivered like Indiana Jones trying to talk Marion out of the Eye of Ra. Unlike Space Hulk where you could order it blind because it's Space Hulk and know you won't be sitting on it. There's no hype about the product because nobody knows what it is, what is in it, or anything out side of boats that's not MoW.

Most niche business would never order a product blind. They don't have the capital to blow in most cases without having an idea of what the market is. Ship games are still a relatively small segment of a small business segment.

I'd love for there to be some discussion - we don't need hard anything to imagine and discuss what it might be.

There are so many irreverent posters criticising GW's marketing that News and Rumours is barely navigable, and this thread has been almost nothing but. They actually try to defend their discussion-killing behaviour by implying that their ideas are over my head. It's pretty funny that this faceless guy is preaching at me, gleefully off-topic, because a video game company is doing it differently. At least do it in a pirate accent, you dork.

Would people prefer a possibly smaller scale game, or something larger-scale and boarding-action based that might tie into Warhammer? Anything similar?

We find out tomorrow in Australia anyway. It's all good.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I'd love for there to be some discussion - we don't need hard anything to imagine and discuss what it might be.

There are so many irreverent posters criticising GW's marketing that News and Rumours is barely navigable, and this thread has been almost nothing but. They actually try to defend their discussion-killing behaviour by implying that their ideas are over my head. It's pretty funny that this faceless guy is preaching at me, gleefully off-topic, because a video game company is doing it differently. At least do it in a pirate accent, you dork.

What is even funnier is you not bothering to discuss or rebut the point and rather continue to throw ad hominem attacks about the place. Out of the two of us, I'd consider that to be more off-topic than me asking why GW haven't offered a preview like said video game company.

They are offering a preview. Saturday.

I can appreciate what you're saying but respectfully I don't mind to care. I don't want to discuss video game company marketing methods - my posts were dragged onto that topic via someone elses quote and I've never failed to reference the actual product when posting in this thread. Thanks for the mod report, though. Great fun that I can't quick reply now that someone took offense to my positive attitude toward this.

This is sort of why I stopped posting on Dakka... it's like it's impossible to be positive about something you'd normally be excited about simply because of a few critical people. The painting and even YMDC sections are great resources but enjoying discussion in News is futile unless insistently posting opinions as facts is one of your hobbies. I am sort of enjoying this because I get to throw in corny pirate references, though.

Is there, or will there be a seperate thread for actually discussing this? Or will people wanting to read current news be forced to walk the plank?

I fear that starting a new thread on Saturday to discuss this in a aim to avoid having to trail thru 10 pages of people complaining will be worthless. As the new thread will carry on in the same way, this is dakka after all. Same beef different thread.

Guess you'll have to wait until there is actual news to find out.

I think the reason that people here are so critical is because they are expressing what they think. Lots of people dont agree with what i think, but is still post here and read here. I know that when i post on an internet forum someone may rebut what i say. They could be a ten year old trolling or a bored 50 year old trolling. Either way i am learning to not take it seriously. If someone posts something i dont agree with then i TRY to rationally respond and if I dont like the responce i get, then i dont bother myself with it more.

I think the critique of the lack of marketing in this instance is entirely justified. We dont know what they are offering but to the best of our knowledge it is a alll in one boat game that costs a lot of money. It would be nice to know a little something about it. This form of advertising does not make me feel more excited about it. It does actually annoy me some. I think that what they might actually achieve by this end are lots of implulse buys where GW loyalists will shell out cash madly because they havent had any time to consider their purchase. Im not sure that it will be an effective strategy and i do feel they have other motivations as well.

Either way. You can express a negative or positive opinion without calling names and getting upset. ITs ok.

The only thing i like about it is that it is going to be another GW game with no support!!!Gotta love the way specialist gets the shaft.At least they are telling you up front.It may be a homebrew gamers dream.I can not wait to see how many people mod the game.

This is like a bad Dakka hair day, and I don't even know how to involve pirates.

It's fine when people don't agree, but to take my fairly neutral statements, declare that I'm somehow too blind to see the meaning behind their structured reasoning (which is completely unrelated to what I've discussed - but I can happily concede that the topic has been warped and I should just post elsewhere), and then report me for playfully defending myself is just insulting. I completely understand what people are saying about GW's marketing and although I find it funny, as I've said, I reserve the right to try to avoid discussing it. When you deal with real-world marketing at least five days a week, the last thing you want is to be attacked for not working.

If I've upset someone I'm barely able to comprehend it. Give me a break. If you don't have anything better to do than pick apart my posts and attack me then please don't post.

sennacherib wrote:I think the critique of the lack of marketing in this instance is entirely justified. We dont know what they are offering but to the best of our knowledge it is a alll in one boat game that costs a lot of money. It would be nice to know a little something about it. This form of advertising does not make me feel more excited about it. It does actually annoy me some. I think that what they might actually achieve by this end are lots of implulse buys where GW loyalists will shell out cash madly because they havent had any time to consider their purchase. Im not sure that it will be an effective strategy and i do feel they have other motivations as well.

GW seem to think they can sell something on the basis it carries the GW logo. If they don't tell anyone what it is, then suddenly release it and say "quick, grab it before it's gone, they're selling out right now!!" then they think people will be foaming at the mouth to buy it qithout thinking.

Maybe that works, I don't know. With Space Hulk, people had a pretty good idea what they were getting and I've no doubt people were planning to buy even before they had seen the box contents. I would have thought that to get pre-orders on a new game they will need to show people how the game plays, what the rules are like, things like that. No doubt their preview will be scant so most people other than the GW loyalists will natually want to 'wait and see' and GW will be wondering why their genius strategy isn't working. I'm pretty sure they exaggerated the limited availability of Space Hulk, copies were available for months, there might be a couple around still, but people were being told there were hardly any left on the shelves almost straight away.

agnosto wrote:

notprop wrote:The business arrangement you describe is pretty much how all shops operate isn't it?

No, it's not. Most companies will approach a stockist with samples of a product that they wish them to sell in their store or at least some pretty pictures of what the product looks like. Imagine a book publisher asking a book store to sell books without even giving the title of the book, its genre or any information at all....there are trade books for a reason. I think that so many of use are used to the cloak and dagger mentality of GW that we just assume that it's the same for the rest of the business world but I assure it, it most definitely is not.

In fact, smart companies bring prototypes to trade shows to see if they can get enough buyers. If they hit critical mass they produce the product. If not they scrap it and try something else.

GW stopped attending NY Toy Fair a while back, and I don't think they do Origins either.

I think that some photos may leak before Saturday. Those Red Shirts can't keep a secret.

They don't know about it. I know one person who does know about it but he's remaining tight lipped, the beggar! There are very few - they've kept this one really well covered!

The people primarily at fault are those who deal in rumours and leaked pictures. They've completely failed us, which is of course apparently GW's fault.

RatBot wrote:I might've been interested enough to try this, and if I liked it enough, maybe even break my ban on GW products, because it's just a one-off stand-alone game with no expansions (basically it sounds like a board game without a board)... but only if there was a Skaven Fleet. It's too bad, there aren't a whole lot of Fantasy Naval games out there. Uncharted Seas is the only one I know of.

You cant get a Skaven fleet, the Rats would desert it

Its funny how GW fails so hard to reach its customers I mean its so ridiculous that even some people here defend that not showing, not saying, not previewing etc etc is actually a clever thing in this so competitive industry I tell you what when they decide what and when to release whatever they want I have actually already spend the money months before... because in hard economy times its clever to preview things ahead so that your customers can start planing. 75 euros is not a impulse buy and its something that should be planned ahead.

GW haven't changed their policy about not letting the public see images or have information about this product. Previous products have had their imagery or information about them stolen. Images/information you've seen/read haven't been released by them. For example, the guy that took a photo of the space wolves was sacked. This one is harder to do because it was packed up somewhere else. Not being righteous, or defending GW, just saying they haven't changed anything. If it was possible all releases would be the same (imagery and information controlled by the company that produces it)


I might be wrong here. But aren't you getting the information on the game on the 17th sept, and then you'll be able to buy it on the 1st oct?
.....So that's 15 days before. Not loads of time. Trying to think of a comparison with films. How long are trailers out before the film? few weeks? a month? (i know some films have a teaser a year ahead, but they often have just a logo).... the conan trailers seemed to be out about 2 weeks before the film.

Just been off the phone with one of GW's Ad Execs.
She sent me a couple of pics of the Pirate Ships in the game.
All else will be revealed on the 17th.

I'm really struggling with some veiws on this. First, previews will be available on Saturday the 17th, it will not be released till October giving at least 2 weeks for people to get hyped about it, and second, as an example, Apple, that great phone, MP3, computer manufacture shows people nothing, not a thing before they release anything, yet people dropped to there knees and handed over hundreds of pounds when the iphone 4 was released, with bug's and all. Three days people stood outside O2 in York to get there hands on something they hadn't seen prior.

Moon on a stick anyone?, they are going fast.

spaceelf wrote:

agnosto wrote:

notprop wrote:The business arrangement you describe is pretty much how all shops operate isn't it?

No, it's not. Most companies will approach a stockist with samples of a product that they wish them to sell in their store or at least some pretty pictures of what the product looks like. Imagine a book publisher asking a book store to sell books without even giving the title of the book, its genre or any information at all....there are trade books for a reason. I think that so many of use are used to the cloak and dagger mentality of GW that we just assume that it's the same for the rest of the business world but I assure it, it most definitely is not.

In fact, smart companies bring prototypes to trade shows to see if they can get enough buyers. If they hit critical mass they produce the product. If not they scrap it and try something else.

GW stopped attending NY Toy Fair a while back, and I don't think they do Origins either.

I think that some photos may leak before Saturday. Those Red Shirts can't keep a secret.

Indeed, does Kickstart not also offer this sort of thing for the modern small business?

"Buying off plan" is a similar sort of deal in the construction industry.

As I've said before, some people need to wake up and smell the poly cement. I never thought I'd defend them, but you can't blame GW for being all hush hush when you consider the leaks they've had in the past.

Glad to see people aren't getting misty eyed about Man'o'war - it was bloody awful!

NAVARRO wrote:Its funny how GW fails so hard to reach its customers I mean its so ridiculous that even some people here defend that not showing, not saying, not previewing etc etc is actually a clever thing in this so competitive industry I tell you what when they decide what and when to release whatever they want I have actually already spend the money months before... because in hard economy times its clever to preview things ahead so that your customers can start planing. 75 euros is not a impulse buy and its something that should be planned ahead.

+1

I will never understand them, they will waste money and resources on something no one asked for but ignore the droves of people who have been screaming for well playtested core rules and army books/codexs.

Edit: removed as it's been done to death....apple reference.

deejaybainbridge wrote:I'm really struggling with some veiws on this. First, previews will be available on Saturday the 17th, it will not be released till October giving at least 2 weeks for people to get hyped about it, and second, as an example, Apple, that great phone, MP3, computer manufacture shows people nothing, not a thing before they release anything, yet people dropped to there knees and handed over hundreds of pounds when the iphone 4 was released, with bug's and all. Three days people stood outside O2 in York to get there hands on something they hadn't seen prior.

It's funny you post that--as earlier today I almost made a 'GW thinks it's Apple' post.

Apple's marketing strategy is based partly on a patent driven market, where 'First out the door' is highly desirable. Apple does allow developers access to their products as well (To the point of chaining units in windowless rooms with monitored access). Again, this is less marketing and more piracy/innovation protection. It is not factual to state their marketing strategy affects sales more so than limits competition at launch. In this particular case, GW is entering an establish market with top level competitors--and by stifling news on a launch--players that might have held on to their cash to buy an IP/brand driven game--perhaps have already spent their gaming funds on Dystopian Wars, Uncharted Seas or other offerings.

Regardless, Games Workshop is not Apple--and it's pretty difficult to compare marketing strategies across markets. iDevices have a significant personal investment--between carrier subscriptions, contracts, applications customized/purchased, etc--so jumping to 'another device' is not easy or desirable for sake of variety. They might believe they have an Apple quality cult following that will hold on to funds or use credit cards to fuel purchases they were unaware of---but I would disagree. There are simply too many good games and miniatures available now.

/Owns an iPhone and iPad--so I wasn't being insulting when I said Apple Cult (Mostly)

NM, lost my train of thought

Arctik_Firangi wrote:We find out tomorrow in Australia anyway. It's all good.

I would love it if you could find anything out and post up info / pics... I'm dying of rumor-starvation here!

RiTides wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:We find out tomorrow in Australia anyway. It's all good.

I would love it if you could find anything out and post up info / pics... I'm dying of rumor-starvation here!

Hooah!!!!!