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junk wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Chaos Gods were never material, nor were Eldar Gods, or Ork Gods. All were shaped according to emotion. But Draigo already existed. What you are basically doing is implying that the Grey Knights through psychic might have created a Daemon Prince. Which is insane, IMHO.

Well, it's been inked, printed, and distributed, you can't put Draigo back in the pen. It may be another 12 years before the GK get a new codex. We have to find something about Draigo to accept, and if there's anything more awesome than this, I'd like to hear it. The grey knights concentrated psychic might has turned their leader into a daemon-esque warp-based superhero. Anyone got anything better? Otherwise this is getting tattooed on my brain.

Eh, it's as good as any attempt to come up with an in-universe reason for why Draigo is so over the top. Still doesn't work though. Turning Draigo into some sort of Daemon Prince type critter would probably take a fair chunk more power than even the Grey Knights can put out, and its not even like they were trying to do so either. Wasn't he pulled into the warp and assumed to be lost?

Then there's the minor point that he doesn't have the Daemon special rule.

There is some discussion of whether the Saints (Adepta Sororitas) are actually incarantions of the Emperors will etc and they don't have the Daemon trait either - perhaps they should have the "holy" trait which functions exactly the same except holy promethium etc heals wounds

Of course there is also the argument that has anyone (non Chaos) in universe actually seen Draigo do any of the things he has claimed - is it all just his warp adled imagination running wild

- or maybe he is a Daemon that thinks he is Draigo?

I only seek to rectify Draigo within the fluff as it exists now, without falling back on the bad writing excuse (which, it is. I hold no illusions about this; however, as it is in my purview of "Canon", I should like it to fit in universe better than HE'S Awesome.)

My rebut of the idea lots of Eldar make the Eldar Gods (who are Daemons as I understand it, just a label, not "Evil"), is that the Eldar gods are capable of more than Draigo, as well as the unified purpose of all of the Grey Knights as well as the extreme psychic abilities could be enough to warrant a Draigo "Daemon".

All three, Omegus. I can at least tolerate the stuff, although I came to the sudden realization that Draigo is a horrible, horrible character, and Mat Ward is a shockingly bad writer. He redeems himself through coming up with some decent ideas. Best to think of him like an over-excited school child with too many ideas, some good, some bad, but without the capability to write them properly.

iproxtaco wrote:Best to think of him like an over-excited school child with too many ideas, some good, some bad, but without the capability to write them properly.

This is what I see him as.

A sort of dim overexcited kid who loves what he's doing and thinks that the things he writes are SUPAR AWESOME.

That's the kind of guy he comes across as in his interviews, the two I have seen which have shaped my opinion of him.

Dim is the proper term.

Although perhaps incongruously, the thing I dislike most about Matthew Ward is not his writing, but the shortening of his first name to "Mat". I mean, wtf, what, you're too cool for that extra letter? Your name is Matthew, the diminutive of which is Matt, deal with it.

Omegus wrote:The thing I hate most about Matthew Ward is the shortening of his first name to "Mat". I mean, wtf, what, you're too cool for that extra letter? Your name is Matthew, the diminutive of which is Matt, deal with it.

Does he himself shorten it to Mat? Really?

I've only ever heard other people refer to himself as Mat Ward.

CpatTom wrote:My rebut of the idea lots of Eldar make the Eldar Gods (who are Daemons as I understand it, just a label, not "Evil"), is that the Eldar gods are capable of more than Draigo

The Eldar gods couldn't burn down Nurgle's garden. In fact, one of them managed to get herself imprisoned by Nurgle. Draigo is more powerful than the Eldar gods. Because he is that awesome The End.


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Void__Dragon wrote:A sort of dim overexcited kid who loves what he's doing and thinks that the things he writes are SUPAR AWESOME.

The Pan Fo revile Mat Ward.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Best to think of him like an over-excited school child with too many ideas, some good, some bad, but without the capability to write them properly.

This is what I see him as.

A sort of dim overexcited kid who loves what he's doing and thinks that the things he writes are SUPAR AWESOME.

That's the kind of guy he comes across as in his interviews, the two I have seen which have shaped my opinion of him.

I've read two, and to be perfectly honest they didn't give the same impression that the quality of writing does. He seemed to know what he was talking about, his reasons were clear, but that could just be his own conviction, and the fact they were Q/A's, he obviously had time to work out his answers a bit more.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Eldar gods couldn't burn down Nurgle's garden. In fact, one of them managed to get herself imprisoned by Nurgle. Draigo is more powerful than the Eldar gods. Because he is that awesome The End.

That's ignoring a lot of context.

The Eldar gods were all weakened, starved from the Eldar ignoring them so they could have blood orgies, when Slaanesh was born.

Despite this, when Khaine fought a Slaanesh that had already gorged on the souls of billions of Eldar and was boosted by the powah of the oter Eldar gods, Slaanesh could not destroy Khaine completely.

Draigo isn't more powerful than the gods.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Eldar gods couldn't burn down Nurgle's garden. In fact, one of them managed to get herself imprisoned by Nurgle. Draigo is more powerful than the Eldar gods. Because he is that awesome The End.

That's ignoring a lot of context.

The Eldar gods were all weakened, starved from the Eldar ignoring them so they could have blood orgies, when Slaanesh was born.

Despite this, when Khaine fought a Slaanesh that had already gorged on the souls of billions of Eldar and was boosted by the powah of the oter Eldar gods, Slaanesh could not destroy Khaine completely.

Draigo isn't more powerful than the gods.

Regardless, in the current timeline Draigo is more powerful than Isha. And Isha is a goddess.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Eldar gods couldn't burn down Nurgle's garden. In fact, one of them managed to get herself imprisoned by Nurgle. Draigo is more powerful than the Eldar gods. Because he is that awesome The End.

That's ignoring a lot of context.

The Eldar gods were all weakened, starved from the Eldar ignoring them so they could have blood orgies, when Slaanesh was born.

Despite this, when Khaine fought a Slaanesh that had already gorged on the souls of billions of Eldar and was boosted by the powah of the oter Eldar gods, Slaanesh could not destroy Khaine completely.

Draigo isn't more powerful than the gods.

Regardless, in the current timeline Draigo is more powerful than Isha. And Isha is a goddess.

Still ignoring context. Nurgle literally tests his diseases by giving them to Isha, I think that would cause a little bit of harm. Then she cures them, she can any disease. Draigo can't cure himself of being a stupid mary-sue.

Void__Dragon wrote:
The Eldar gods were all weakened, starved from the Eldar ignoring them so they could have blood orgies, when Slaanesh was born.s.

To be fair, who doesn't like blood orgies?

Omegus wrote:To be fair, who doesn't like blood orgies?

A valid point, and one I will consider in the future.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Eldar gods couldn't burn down Nurgle's garden. In fact, one of them managed to get herself imprisoned by Nurgle. Draigo is more powerful than the Eldar gods. Because he is that awesome The End.

That's ignoring a lot of context.

The Eldar gods were all weakened, starved from the Eldar ignoring them so they could have blood orgies, when Slaanesh was born.

Despite this, when Khaine fought a Slaanesh that had already gorged on the souls of billions of Eldar and was boosted by the powah of the oter Eldar gods, Slaanesh could not destroy Khaine completely.

Draigo isn't more powerful than the gods.

I think the reason that Slaanesh couldn't destroy and absorbe Khaine was due to Khorne's intervention. Khaine was both an aspect of Khorne and a Eldar god, so both Dark Powers felt that they had dibs, they ended up fighting over the shattered bits of Khaine that were left after Slaanesh crumped him, which gave the shard the out they needed to settle in on the Craftworlds.

daveNYC wrote:I think the reason that Slaanesh couldn't destroy and absorbe Khaine was due to Khorne's intervention. Khaine was both an aspect of Khorne and a Eldar god, so both Dark Powers felt that they had dibs, they ended up fighting over the shattered bits of Khaine that were left after Slaanesh crumped him, which gave the shard the out they needed to settle in on the Craftworlds.

"Exhausted from the struggle (Referring specifically to the struggle with Khaine), the Great Enemy was not powerful enough to destroy the Eldar God completely. Instead Kaela Mensha Khaine was rent into many fragments and driven out of the Warp forever."

- Eldar 4e codex, page 6

Do note that Slaanesh was specifically noted to be stronger than Khaine because he/she had glutted on the power of the entire Eldar pantheon sans Cegorach and Khaine himself.

Also, I think the Khorne intervening might be outdated fluff, Khorne isn't even mentioned in the most recent retelling of the fight.

I can't be bothered to look it up at the moment, but there is also a quote about Khorne being all miffed about Slaanesh usurping "one of his own" when it came to KMK.

iproxtaco wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Eldar gods couldn't burn down Nurgle's garden. In fact, one of them managed to get herself imprisoned by Nurgle. Draigo is more powerful than the Eldar gods. Because he is that awesome The End.

That's ignoring a lot of context.

The Eldar gods were all weakened, starved from the Eldar ignoring them so they could have blood orgies, when Slaanesh was born.

Despite this, when Khaine fought a Slaanesh that had already gorged on the souls of billions of Eldar and was boosted by the powah of the oter Eldar gods, Slaanesh could not destroy Khaine completely.

Draigo isn't more powerful than the gods.

Regardless, in the current timeline Draigo is more powerful than Isha. And Isha is a goddess.

Still ignoring context. Nurgle literally tests his diseases by giving them to Isha, I think that would cause a little bit of harm. Then she cures them, she can any disease. Draigo can't cure himself of being a stupid mary-sue.

Still not getting my point. Nurgle has the power to imprison other gods and give them diseases. Nurgle cannot do this to Draigo. Draigo however can burn down Nurgle's domain. That is godlike power.

But much (all) of his godrage power does absolutely nothing. Rending him not as good as a god at all.

BrainDeleted wrote:But much (all) of his godrage power does absolutely nothing. Rending him not as good as a god at all.

So he is a god like being that gets little done in actuality. Just like the rest of the gods; seeing as they get little done in the Imperium. I mean for all the power the Chaos gods have they get very little done permanently. Sure they can destroy scores of Imperial citizens, soldiers, and Astarte's but none of their victories last.

People are reading into his fluff all wrong if you ask me.

It's not that Draigo can't get a lasting victory against Chaos, and the Gods simply watch his futile exploits with amusement.

It's that Draigo is torturing the Chaos Gods, destroying their works again and again, to let them know that their power is nothing in the face of his pure awesomeness.

Wow 11 pages, didn't know that Draigo is so popular these days...

BrainDeleted wrote:But much (all) of his godrage power does absolutely nothing. Rending him not as good as a god at all.

Nurgle gives Isha diseases which do absolutely nothing.

Omegus wrote:Yes. It's true. It's not the only example of Matthew's bad writing either, just arguably the most blatant one. Ridiculous fanboy hyperbole is what that guy does. You're the only one who refuses to accept that. I'm not sure whether I should be worried, saddened or amused by that.

I don't refuse to accept anything, I do however choose to have my own view point on Dragio and Ward, and not just jump on the hate-wagon...


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Brother Coa wrote:Wow 11 pages, didn't know that Draigo is so popular these days...

Because people like to hate him, and I like to defend him

If the Chaos Gods really cared about Draigo and his actions, I'm sure that Tzeentch could persuade M'kar to release his curse on Draigo. Since he hasn't, I'm forced to conclude that Draigo isn't doing much damage at all.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:But much (all) of his godrage power does absolutely nothing. Rending him not as good as a god at all.

Nurgle gives Isha diseases which do absolutely nothing.

Nope, he judges his diseases by how long they take her to cure and how much they make her suffer. He knows that his diseases won't kill the goddess of healing. If he wanted to kill her he'd presumably eat her or give her to Slaanesh to be raped/eaten to death.

bombboy1252 wrote:

Omegus wrote:Yes. It's true. It's not the only example of Matthew's bad writing either, just arguably the most blatant one. Ridiculous fanboy hyperbole is what that guy does. You're the only one who refuses to accept that. I'm not sure whether I should be worried, saddened or amused by that.

I don't refuse to accept anything, I do however choose to have my own view point on Dragio and Ward, and not just jump on the hate-wagon...

See, claiming it's a hate wagon implies that people have joined it simply because it's there. The reality is that a multitude of people have read his fluff and agreed that it's bad. More power to you for holding onto your own opinion, but you can't claim that everyone has the right to an opinion then dismiss the opinions of others as a hate wagon.

Durza wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Omegus wrote:Yes. It's true. It's not the only example of Matthew's bad writing either, just arguably the most blatant one. Ridiculous fanboy hyperbole is what that guy does. You're the only one who refuses to accept that. I'm not sure whether I should be worried, saddened or amused by that.

I don't refuse to accept anything, I do however choose to have my own view point on Dragio and Ward, and not just jump on the hate-wagon...

See, claiming it's a hate wagon implies that people have joined it simply because it's there. The reality is that a multitude of people have read his fluff and agreed that it's bad. More power to you for holding onto your own opinion, but you can't claim that everyone has the right to an opinion then dismiss the opinions of others as a hate wagon.

I think some people have read it, though it's not hard to believe others just jump on board because hating Draigo and Ward is the cool thing to do, and I do believe everyone has their own opinion, and I also believe a lot of people on the internet just like to hop on band wagons. Without actually getting into a face to face conversation with someone that I know in real life, it's hard to tell who has read it and formed an opinion, and who just repeats what other people say on the web.

And some people really have read it and really dislike it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:And some people really have read it and really dislike it.

I believe I mentioned that.....