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junk wrote:Well, how do Orks survive warp travel without a gellar field? And what is a gellar field made of?
Can a gellar field be generated psychically?

The First Heretic seems to imply that the gellar field mechanism has something to do with blood. Bloodrocution is a very real hazard when servicing gellar field equipment.

Greyish wrote:

junk wrote:Re: Draigo vs. the Warp - In order to accept what Ward has written, what explanation can we invent that will allow Draigo to be acceptable? E.g. There seems to be less resistance to the idea that the entire planet of Titan could be hidden in the warp for an eon, maybe the GK developed their aegis during this time to withstand the warp?

All Grey Knights have the potential to traverse the warp without a Gellar Field. This is already alluded to in C:GK on page 28, under the Interceptors entry.

They should expand on this. Perhaps it is standard operating procedure that every time one of them makes a warp jump they actually enter the Realm of Chaos for a few decades (time is fickle in the Warp afterall), kill a few thousand daemons and burn down Nurgle's garden (those pesky Grey Knights just won't stay off Papa's lawn!). I think that this would be some pretty compelling fluff and really add to the rich characterisation of the Grey Knights and their tragic struggle against Chaos. Matt Ward should get on it straight away!

Draigo feeds off your hate and disbelief.

nectarprime wrote:Draigo feeds off your hate and disbelief.

So do Ward and Goto. Soon their unholy alliance will be unstoppable.

As I read the piece in the GK codex - the personel teleporters seem to operate in the same way as those used by the Eldar Warp Spider Aspect Warriors?

It might even be "recovered" and reverse engineered technology by the Deathwatch.

It also implies it is a risky thing to undertake.

I thought Goto was just Ward's pseudonym? Multilazorz!

Mr Morden wrote:It also implies it is a risky thing to undertake.

Why would it be risky? Grey Knights don't die when they get sucked into the Warp - they get angry. The Interceptor would probably just look up Draigo and join his party to do Garden of Nurgle runs for extra XP. Hell, if enough of them got together they might even be able to carve out their own domain in Realm of Chaos and have a sweet clubhouse and everything!

Void__Dragon wrote:[

Also, Gellar Fields work by projecting a field that keeps daemons out of the ship, yes? Huh, what do you know, sounds an awful lot like the wards in Aegis armour to me. Is it that far-fetched that the wards of the Supreme Grand Master's suit of relic terminator armour would be able to defend him?

Aegis Armour doesn't make you completely immune to the power of the Warp. Nor is it necessarily the equivelant of a Gellar Field. That's an assumption, a big one at that.

Yes, it's an assumption and I never claimed it to be something else. I outlined a possible scenario, I never claimed it to be the One Truth or anything. I even ended the statement with a question!

Void__Dragon wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And Enslavers. And the Eldar Gods. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Enslavers are not prone to being mutated and having their very existence compromised by the Warp. And the Eldar gods are... You know, gods.

I responded to a quote that said only Daemons of Chaos could live in the Warp, proving the quote wrong.

Now that I'm through with that, on to other stuff:

First off, I stand corrected. The Warp is, indeed, a place that is dangerous to simply be in. Mea culpa.


Secondly, daemons in the warp supposedly form their surroundings by sheer willpower. Why couldn't Draigo, who is a powerful psyker, be able to do the same? Just consider the sheer willpower every Grey Knights posesses.

See, "daemon" is just a term. A label that was applied to the beings of the warp. The Eldar Gods, if I'm not mistaken on this (Someone please fact check this) are "daemons", as in, beings created in the warp because of a belief or emotion.

So, as the Eldar (and whatever other Creatures the War in Heaven had) are primarily responsible for the creation of "Chaos": collective disturbances in the Immatterium, because of their psychic nature.

So, if the Eldar's (and later man's) unbridled psychic nature can create gods, would it not follow that: The Grey Knights, a collection of the purest and most powerful psykers in the galaxy, would not create a "daemon" imbued with the characteristics of its creators? (Namely immunity to the an extreme advantage to the "Chaos" denizens of the warp?

Draigo as a Warp Reflection of his own chapter makes the most logical sense given his accomplishments after his Ascension.

Draigo is a "Daemon".

Edit for spellings.

Because Draigo is a material creature. After a while of being assaulted continuously, he would tire and die.

Durza wrote:Because Draigo is a material creature. After a while of being assaulted continuously, he would tire and die.

No he isnt. He was a material creature. Now he is a Daemon (He can only exist on the material plane for so long, etc).

CpatTom wrote:

Durza wrote:Because Draigo is a material creature. After a while of being assaulted continuously, he would tire and die.

No he isnt. He was a material creature. Now he is a Daemon (He can only exist on the material plane for so long, etc).

This is not how Daemons are created in the Warp. Daemons... not Daemon Princes or Daemon Primarchs or Matt Daemons... are entirely, 100% completely and entirely warp-stuff given a shape and sentience (shape optional). Draigo could not have been "once-material" and "now a daemon". It's simply not how it works.

Psienesis wrote:This is not how Daemons are created in the Warp. Daemons... not Daemon Princes or Daemon Primarchs or Matt Daemons... are entirely, 100% completely and entirely warp-stuff given a shape and sentience (shape optional). Draigo could not have been "once-material" and "now a daemon". It's simply not how it works.

You can have an Idea of a thing, and the removal of said thing from real space, and creation in warp space could coincide. They are not the continuation of One Sentient being , but two that share the same shape. They are two separate Entities. Which could explain Draigo's non-recognition of his Grey Knight Brethren on return from the warp? His apparent not need to eat, or sleep, or reload, or all those other things people complain about.

Matthew Ward wrote:Matt Ward says: Lord Kaldor Draigo is a combat monster - there's no other way to describe him. He's lethal against non-daemonic foes, with plenty of Strength 5 force weapon attacks to lay a beat down. When faced with hated Daemons, his Titansword becomes Strength 10, ensuring a pretty one-sided fight in his favour. Even if his enemy survives, Draigo's storm shield is sure to keep him fighting. And on top of all of this, Draigo is a Grand Master, able to bestow extra abilities on his allies. Want your Dreadknight to capture objectives? Draigo can make that happen. Want a Scouting screen of Dreadnoughts? Draigo can make it happen. He's the best possible way to keep your opponent on his toes.

Draigo can make it happen.

BrainDeleted wrote:

Matthew Ward wrote:Matt Ward says: Lord Kaldor Draigo is a combat monster - there's no other way to describe him. He's lethal against non-daemonic foes, with plenty of Strength 5 force weapon attacks to lay a beat down. When faced with hated Daemons, his Titansword becomes Strength 10, ensuring a pretty one-sided fight in his favour. Even if his enemy survives, Draigo's storm shield is sure to keep him fighting. And on top of all of this, Draigo is a Grand Master, able to bestow extra abilities on his allies. Want your Dreadknight to capture objectives? Draigo can make that happen. Want a Scouting screen of Dreadnoughts? Draigo can make it happen. He's the best possible way to keep your opponent on his toes.

Draigo can make it happen.

You know, when people suggest characters like that in the Proposed Rules, they're called something... what was it? Oh yeah. Ridiculous.

CpatTom wrote:

Durza wrote:Because Draigo is a material creature. After a while of being assaulted continuously, he would tire and die.

No he isnt. He was a material creature. Now he is a Daemon (He can only exist on the material plane for so long, etc).

Nothing in the actual written fluff supports or even hints at this. All fluff points to Draigo being able to do what he does because he is just that awesome The End.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

CpatTom wrote:

Durza wrote:Because Draigo is a material creature. After a while of being assaulted continuously, he would tire and die.

No he isnt. He was a material creature. Now he is a Daemon (He can only exist on the material plane for so long, etc).

Nothing in the actual written fluff supports or even hints at this. All fluff points to Draigo being able to do what he does because he is just that awesome The End.

It makes more sense than: He's that awesome. Things that have the greatest amount of support for them (or lack of contradtictions), are the most likely to be true. Draigo is kewl is not an argument, its an opinion, and cannot be refuted. You are allowed to have your opinions. But, given they cannot be refuted, they provide no basis for discussion, and thus should be relegate to sig's; however, thats just my opinion.

Surly the best thing would be for instead of Draigo constantly fighting in the Warp, it got changed to him being constantly flung through time and space. Makes a helluva lot more sense to me than him surviving in the Warp or spontaneously daemonifying.

Sounds like a great idea for a Quantum Leap reboot.

Omegus wrote:Sounds like a great idea for a Quantum Leap reboot.

Oh boy.

It's because he's that awesome: The End. Sure, Malcador, Eldrad and The Emperor himself couldn't trapse around the warp like that but that is because they are not as awesome as Draigo.

Reading through this thread makes me happy that I read Imperial Guard fluff and stories. They die in droves and still get stuff done.


But isn't almost all Space Marine fluff epitomized to be over the top? Wouldn't it make sense to make Draigo, the head honcho of the most elite Space Marine Chapter then supposed go even further to put the old over-the-top Space Marine Fluff to shame?

While Matt Ward is partially responsible for writing like a dreaming teenager, someone had to see it coming. Out of all the Space Marine fluff that has splurged out into 'canon' space (Feth you Graham McNeil), it was building up to a tipping point, and this tipping point of over-the-top Space Marine Milarky came in the form of Kaldor Draigo.

That's all I got.

Lol, canon. I laugh at the term. This is GW youngling, there is no such thing as canon.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Yes, it's an assumption and I never claimed it to be something else. I outlined a possible scenario, I never claimed it to be the One Truth or anything. I even ended the statement with a question!

I dunno man, I feel like something like that could be mentioned.

I responded to a quote that said only Daemons of Chaos could live in the Warp, proving the quote wrong.

Now that I'm through with that, on to other stuff:

First off, I stand corrected. The Warp is, indeed, a place that is dangerous to simply be in. Mea culpa.

Secondly, daemons in the warp supposedly form their surroundings by sheer willpower. Why couldn't Draigo, who is a powerful psyker, be able to do the same? Just consider the sheer willpower every Grey Knights posesses.

I can think of only two psykers who were capable of traversing the Immaterium without effort and without being in serious danger. The Emperor and Magnus the Red, who often did so together as weird father/son bonding trips I guess. Notice that both of these individuals are the most powerful psykers ever.

Also, they did so while themselves being Immaterial, projecting their massive Warp presences. Draigo is material, and as such his body as well as his spirit would be vulnerable to the Warpstuff. Noticeable, even Ahriman, one of the most powerful psykers to ever live and the most powerful psyker in the Thousand Sons under Magnus, was still endangered and had a close call once in A Thousand Sons while traversing the Imperium.

It's not that Draigo has merely survived some time in the Warp, he has survived and is seemingly unstoppable.


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CpatTom wrote:See, "daemon" is just a term. A label that was applied to the beings of the warp. The Eldar Gods, if I'm not mistaken on this (Someone please fact check this) are "daemons", as in, beings created in the warp because of a belief or emotion.

They are not really Daemons. Such a term is insulting, to be honest, when applied to them. They are massive Warp entities created by emotion, specifically by the emotions of the Eldar race, and guided them. Like Gork and Mork are.

So, as the Eldar (and whatever other Creatures the War in Heaven had) are primarily responsible for the creation of "Chaos": collective disturbances in the Immatterium, because of their psychic nature.

So, if the Eldar's (and later man's) unbridled psychic nature can create gods, would it not follow that: The Grey Knights, a collection of the purest and most powerful psykers in the galaxy, would not create a "daemon" imbued with the characteristics of its creators? (Namely immunity to the an extreme advantage to the "Chaos" denizens of the warp?

Uh...

There are a thousand Grey Knights.

As in, not really a lot. The notion that their Warp presence would be capable of creating the equivelant of entire civilizations is blegh.

Draigo as a Warp Reflection of his own chapter makes the most logical sense given his accomplishments after his Ascension.

Draigo is a "Daemon".

Edit for spellings.

Chaos Gods were never material, nor were Eldar Gods, or Ork Gods. All were shaped according to emotion. But Draigo already existed. What you are basically doing is implying that the Grey Knights through psychic might have created a Daemon Prince. Which is insane, IMHO.

He can do this because he's just that awesome. Nowhere is Draigo becoming some kind of Grey Knight Daemon Prince implied.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Chaos Gods were never material, nor were Eldar Gods, or Ork Gods. All were shaped according to emotion. But Draigo already existed. What you are basically doing is implying that the Grey Knights through psychic might have created a Daemon Prince. Which is insane, IMHO.

Well, it's been inked, printed, and distributed, you can't put Draigo back in the pen. It may be another 12 years before the GK get a new codex. We have to find something about Draigo to accept, and if there's anything more awesome than this, I'd like to hear it. The grey knights concentrated psychic might has turned their leader into a daemon-esque warp-based superhero. Anyone got anything better? Otherwise this is getting tattooed on my brain.

junk wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Chaos Gods were never material, nor were Eldar Gods, or Ork Gods. All were shaped according to emotion. But Draigo already existed. What you are basically doing is implying that the Grey Knights through psychic might have created a Daemon Prince. Which is insane, IMHO.

Well, it's been inked, printed, and distributed, you can't put Draigo back in the pen. It may be another 12 years before the GK get a new codex. We have to find something about Draigo to accept, and if there's anything more awesome than this, I'd like to hear it. The grey knights concentrated psychic might has turned their leader into a daemon-esque warp-based superhero. Anyone got anything better? Otherwise this is getting tattooed on my brain.

You know, I think that this would have been a far representation of Draigo.

junk wrote:Well, it's been inked, printed, and distributed, you can't put Draigo back in the pen. It may be another 12 years before the GK get a new codex. We have to find something about Draigo to accept, and if there's anything more awesome than this, I'd like to hear it. The grey knights concentrated psychic might has turned their leader into a daemon-esque warp-based superhero. Anyone got anything better? Otherwise this is getting tattooed on my brain.

He's the product of bad writing?

Void__Dragon wrote:He's the product of bad writing?

Is he ever! No explanations at all in the writing. Draigo wrought x. Draigo performed y. Draigo endured z. The extent of the writing is basically, 'It's just there. I wrote this in a codex because I can. Accept it.'

Draigo (IMHO) is identical to the Ork in the Warp. Tzeentch controls ALL things.

Tzeentch probably thought it would be the height of comedy to bring the "greatest" of the Emperors warriors into his realm and use him for useless nonsense.
Things like "burning down the garden of Nurgle" are just dumb. Fire destroys... that makes Nurgle happy. "Destroying the Tzeentch city" just brought CHANGE to the realm of the lord of CHANGE!

Draigo is a chump. Nothing more than a pawn of chaos for all time. Let us mourn the loss of this great hero.

DeffDred wrote:Draigo (IMHO) is identical to the Ork in the Warp. Tzeentch controls ALL things.

AFAIK, Tzeentch only controls his daemons...he doesn't control anything...he plans everything, if everything was controlled by him, he would be very unhappy because he wouldn't have to plan for anything...


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Void__Dragon wrote:He's the product of bad writing?

No


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iproxtaco wrote:Lol, canon. I laugh at the term. This is GW youngling, there is no such thing as canon.

Hahaha

This is the truest statement I have heard all day. which doesn't mean much because I just woke up

Yes. It's true. It's not the only example of Matthew's bad writing either, just arguably the most blatant one. Ridiculous fanboy hyperbole is what that guy does. You're the only one who refuses to accept that. I'm not sure whether I should be worried, saddened or amused by that.