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bombboy1252 wrote:
I also believe a lot of people on the internet just like to hop on band wagons. Without actually getting into a face to face conversation with someone that I know in real life, it's hard to tell who has read it and formed an opinion, and who just repeats what other people say on the web.
I wanted to believe this. I wanted to believe this badly for a long time. Then I looked through the Grey Knights Codex......
bombboy1252 wrote:
I also believe a lot of people on the internet just like to hop on band wagons. Without actually getting into a face to face conversation with someone that I know in real life, it's hard to tell who has read it and formed an opinion, and who just repeats what other people say on the web.
I wanted to believe this. I wanted to believe this badly for a long time. Then I looked through the Grey Knights Codex......
I actually like parts of the grey knights codex. Its 10x better than the Space Wolf codex. And the only problem I have with it is the bringing the 3,000 Grey Knights down to 1,000 Grey Knights.
Thats it.
Draigo is kinda ridiculous but its not as ridiculous as Lucius the Eternal and Abaddon the Disposable
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
bombboy1252 wrote:Okay, besides Draigo, what was so bad with the GK codex?
Well, excluding Draigo AND the Bloodtide thing....Because those 2 get the most flak...
Purifiers.
Seriously, codex is inconsistent as feth.
"GREY KNIGHTS ARE HUNDRED PERCENT INCORRUPTIBLE"
"PURIFIERS ARE EVEN MORE INCORRUPTIBLE THAN GREY KNIGHTS"
"CROWE MAKES ALL OTHER PURIFIERS LOOK LIKE SLAANESH-WORSHIPPING SERIAL RAPISTS IN TERMS OF INCORRUPTIBILITY"
Actually I am fine with that. More purer like the Jedi Masters call themselves purer than the pure. It just means they are incorruptable, and can't be easily killed.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
bombboy1252 wrote:Okay, besides Draigo, what was so bad with the GK codex?
a. Grey Knight killing everyone they have been helping them ( Guard, Mechanicus, SIsters and even Marines, of course because AStartes are their brothers after all they first try to erase their memory. If they reject or somehow erasing isn't successful - bolt shell in the head can work to ).
b. A Grey Knight get swallowed by Great Unclean One. The Gret Unclean one exploded 10 mnutes after that and that Grey Knight that gotten swallowed just came out from the pile of , clean his power armor and saying: "I am so badass".
c. A Grey Knight Terminator squad get cornered by Chaos and Tyranid foes, and what they do? They call a freaking orbital bombardment on themselves and blast both Chaos and Tyranids into bits in wide radius. Some time after that ( like minutes literally ),thet GET UP being under like 2 tons of rubble and jusr clean their armor stood there proud of their deed.
The fact they now use ghosts to aid them, have anti-plasma armor, use Daemonhost to their aid ( did I mentioned they hate Daemons more than North Korea hate US? ) and have walkers that can teleport into the battlefield ( seriously, DredKnight is so overpowered and + he looks like that cargo robot from "Aliens", just with guns and soem more high-tect stuff ) makes them more OP then usual armies.
On the other hand, I liked how they act at Malan'tai ( returning the Craftworld to Eldar, even Guard it from any intruders until Eldar arrived ) and saving the people at Beroghast ( by slaying entire Ork WARGHHH!!! on the planet ), but that's about it that I like in new codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/28 07:20:27
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
bombboy1252 wrote:Okay, besides Draigo, what was so bad with the GK codex?
a. Grey Knight killing everyone they have been helping them ( Guard, Mechanicus, SIsters and even Marines, of course because AStartes are their brothers after all they first try to erase their memory. If they reject or somehow erasing isn't successful - bolt shell in the head can work to ).
Not new, this is part of their background.
Brother Coa wrote:
b. A Grey Knight get swallowed by Great Unclean One. The Gret Unclean one exploded 10 mnutes after that and that Grey Knight that gotten swallowed just came out from the pile of , clean his power armor and saying: "I am so badass".
Terminator Armour. And just to put this into perspective, the GUO ate something that is anathema to daemons to the point that they recoil from them and died when said being used his anti-daemon powers to blast his way out.
Brother Coa wrote:
c. A Grey Knight Terminator squad get cornered by Chaos and Tyranid foes, and what they do? They call a freaking orbital bombardment on themselves and blast both Chaos and Tyranids into bits in wide radius. Some time after that ( like minutes literally ),thet GET UP being under like 2 tons of rubble and jusr clean their armor stood there proud of their deed.
And this is where in the Codex? Seriously, this isn't even in the book AFAIK. Even if it were, if both Grimaldus and Mephiston can crawl their way out of a building, why can't terminators?
Brother Coa wrote:
The fact they now use ghosts to aid them, have anti-plasma armor, use Daemonhost to their aid ( did I mentioned they hate Daemons more than North Korea hate US? ) and have walkers that can teleport into the battlefield ( seriously, DredKnight is so overpowered and + he looks like that cargo robot from "Aliens", just with guns and soem more high-tect stuff ) makes them more OP then usual armies.
The bolded parts are just silly. They don't have "anti-plasma armour", you bring an Inquisitor with rare archaeotech that destabilizes plasma. Dreadknights are hardly overpowered. Finally, if the Grey Knights are so overpowered, how come they're consistently placing around the other good Codices at major tournaments?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
I think Coa was going for Over Powered with his acronym. The broken arrow tactic is under 'The Pandemonium of Sondheim V'. Oddly, their Grand Master in this story seems to be named after the Kai Gun from the old Chaos Dex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/28 08:16:14
You guys are so cute when you go all off topic and derail the thread with your petty nerd rage.
Subject: Draigo
Seriously.
We left off with Draigo being a living over-powered Saint, or probably dead and replaced with a form of warp "Daemon."
I think he is still alive and walks the righteous path through the warp. All things being illusion and all things being possible, Draigo is master of his own fate. No daemon or false god has power over him. Also the Grey Knights have different geneseed then the other Astartes. I don't see a problem with him signing autographs for corrupted Primarchs. The dude in question is a puss filled chaos lackey. Who cares what you think he once was. That was 10,000 years ago. Draigo is the new champ now. Followers of Chaos can get in line for their own autograph. Draigo is handing them out.
Why would Draigo need to take a bath? That is the lamest arguement I have heard. The dude is like 10 feet tall, hundreds of years old, wacked out on Psychic Emporer Geneseed, and wearing Nuclear Powered TDA and he time travels. Someone that crazy doesn't need to take baths. I just don't think it is remotely high on his list of things to do this decade. Maybe he has a spell for it. But really I think his armor probably has a disinfecting button somewhere.
Common guys. Your petty little beefs with Ward and the Purifiers are so boring and like page 2. If you don't have anything else to say, its okay, you can stop. Were on like page 12 now, and we understand you don't like Draigo or anything else Mat(t) Ward has written. Nobody is asking you to change your mind.
Stay on topic. Draigo. Love him. Hate him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/28 08:53:14
You are right, Draigo it is ( I can't start explaining why my points are liek that when people won't read them ).
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
I just dont like how "Good" he is in-game. I mean seriously, he just runs around the field swinging his badasshammer and crushing foes to oblivion. What that you say? Orbital Bombard him? Oh wait, crap hes Eternal Warrior and just survived the FREAKIN' ORBITAL BOMBARDMENT!!!!!!! How you ask? But sticking his shield up.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:In the grim darkness of the far future, the guy with a rifle is the weakest man on the battlefield, left to quake in terror, hoping the two or three shots he gets do the job before somebody runs screaming across the battlefield to hit him with an energized stick.
Asherian Command wrote:Draigo is kinda ridiculous but its not as ridiculous as Lucius the Eternal and Abaddon the Disposable
Are you serious?
Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it.
JohnnoM wrote:I just dont like how "Good" he is in-game. I mean seriously, he just runs around the field swinging his badasshammer and crushing foes to oblivion. What that you say? Orbital Bombard him? Oh wait, crap hes Eternal Warrior and just survived the FREAKIN' ORBITAL BOMBARDMENT!!!!!!! How you ask? But sticking his shield up.
Just to be clear, your beef with a 275 point unit is the fact that he has eternal warrior and a storm shield?
I've seen crisis suits survive orbital bombardments, guess that makes the Tau-dex overpowered.
Brother Coa wrote:You are right, Draigo it is ( I can't start explaining why my points are liek that when people won't read them ).
Right, anyone who disagrees with you hasn't read your post. Got it.
Spoiler:
a. They weren't murder people in the old fluff, especially not Space Marines. I first heard about that in the new fluff.
b. That Purifier didn't have Terminator armor but ordinary power armor. And it doesn't matter if GK are incorruptible, he swallowed him and then GUO exploded for no reason. That was just show off.
c. That did happened, and the point is that they were directly hit by orbital bombardment. And while all around them die they survived, and they were not under the rubble at all. I read it again, they actually call bombardment on themselves and then left like nothing happened while everything around them in like 100 miles radios die..
As for plasma issue, they have plasma-resistant armors now witch means that Tau can't do squat to them since 90% of their weapons are plasma types. That also apply to Imperial Guard who have plasma infantry and tanks who are useless now against them.
That is what I don't liek in GK codex and why are they overpowered.
Now please don't get off topic.
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
The plasma siphon is a piece of wargear with a 12" radius that goes on a T3 HQ model that none of the power lists are fielding anyway. Please don't derail the thread.
bombboy1252 wrote:I think some people have read it, though it's not hard to believe others just jump on board because hating Draigo and Ward is the cool thing to do, and I do believe everyone has their own opinion, and I also believe a lot of people on the internet just like to hop on band wagons. Without actually getting into a face to face conversation with someone that I know in real life, it's hard to tell who has read it and formed an opinion, and who just repeats what other people say on the web.
Ah, that's all nice and everything, but the fact is, people arguing for the stupidity of Draigo are doing so from an informed position, considering we're all citing the written material in our arguments. Conversely, the pro-Draigo camp's argument comes from the realm of make believe and apologetics, such as "Oh Draigo is all about tragedy because he only repeatedly owns the most powerful beings in the setting, rather than just once and for all" or "Draigo is a Greater Daemon Prince Saint of the Grey Emperor Knights."
So the bandwagon accusation can work both ways. In this case, you are the bandwagon-jumper, hopping on the "Ward hate is the norm, so I'm going to be a special unique snowflake by staunchly defending him" wagon. Unfortunately, you made a mistake picking this as your crusade, because while I'm all for people forming their own opinion, when it comes to Draigo, you are simply
And frankly, admitting it would garner you far more respect than digging in your heels and going ad hominem.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/28 12:53:39
a. They weren't murder people in the old fluff, especially not Space Marines. I first heard about that in the new fluff.
b. That Purifier didn't have Terminator armor but ordinary power armor. And it doesn't matter if GK are incorruptible, he swallowed him and then GUO exploded for no reason. That was just show off.
c. That did happened, and the point is that they were directly hit by orbital bombardment. And while all around them die they survived, and they were not under the rubble at all. I read it again, they actually call bombardment on themselves and then left like nothing happened while everything around them in like 100 miles radios die..
As for plasma issue, they have plasma-resistant armors now witch means that Tau can't do squat to them since 90% of their weapons are plasma types. That also apply to Imperial Guard who have plasma infantry and tanks who are useless now against them.
That is what I don't liek in GK codex and why are they overpowered.
Now please don't get off topic.
It most certainly was in the old fluff, going all the way back to their first appearances in the RoC era books.
The 2nd point is no more implausible than any of the other myriad of times heroes are swallowed and kill their foe from the inside out, it's a staple of the heroic genre. And, of course, this act is carried out by a "named" special character.
I think you're totally misrepresenting the orbital bombardment as well, which is no real surprise. For starters they're in the lower areas of the Temple when they bombardment starts, which is of course covered in spore chimneys. Furthermore it states that the Gk "weather the storm of barrage bombs" and then the survivors leave before they are overwhelmed.
Which is a far cry from the way you've just described the situation.
I've no idea really where you're getting or going with the plasma resistant armour thing, we'll put that down to linguistic misunderstandings methinks.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
a. They weren't murder people in the old fluff, especially not Space Marines. I first heard about that in the new fluff.
But they did. Just look at the First War for Armageddon. Whether or not you've heard about it before the 5th ed Codex matters little.
Brother Coa wrote:
b. That Purifier didn't have Terminator armor but ordinary power armor. And it doesn't matter if GK are incorruptible, he swallowed him and then GUO exploded for no reason. That was just show off.
The Purifier in question is Anval Thawn, the justicar upgrade character that you can buy for Terminators. You know, the guy who can't die. Presumably him being a purifier is a typo though, otherwise I imagine he'd have access to Cleansing Flame, which he doesn't. It also doesn't take 10 minutes for Ku'gath to be chopped from the inside, it takes more like 10 seconds. And, again, he doesn't explode for no reason, Thawn carves his way out with his Nemesis Halberd.
Brother Coa wrote:
c. That did happened, and the point is that they were directly hit by orbital bombardment. And while all around them die they survived, and they were not under the rubble at all. I read it again, they actually call bombardment on themselves and then left like nothing happened while everything around them in like 100 miles radios die..
Reading through the Codex, I can admit that it happened, but not in the way you describe it: They were inside a ruin beneath a Tyranid spore chimney. Furthermore, the Orbital Bombardement was almost certainly an anti-personell barrage, which is represented in-game as Barrage Bomb, being AP 4. You're also greatly exaggerating the damage it did to the Tyranids and the Daemons; all it did was clear the immediate area so the Terminators could evacuate.
Brother Coa wrote:
As for plasma issue, they have plasma-resistant armors now witch means that Tau can't do squat to them since 90% of their weapons are plasma types. That also apply to Imperial Guard who have plasma infantry and tanks who are useless now against them.
Now who's not reading the other person's posts? The Ulumeathi Plasma Siphon is a xeno piece of technology that some Ordo Xenos Inquisitors have aquired. It's a crystal array that messes with plasma weapons making it almost impossible to aim with them. A crystal array does not a suit of armour make though. You're right though, they DO have Plasma-resistant armour, it's called Terminator Armour...
Brother Coa wrote:
Now please don't get off topic.
The entire point of a discussion is that both sides get to speak. Trying to dodge a discussion by complaining about going off-topic is counter-productive, especially as we're discussing something related to Draigo; the reason why people dislike him and the Grey Knights in general.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Omegus wrote:The plasma siphon is a piece of wargear with a 12" radius that goes on a T3 HQ model that none of the power lists are fielding anyway. Please don't derail the thread.
bombboy1252 wrote:I think some people have read it, though it's not hard to believe others just jump on board because hating Draigo and Ward is the cool thing to do, and I do believe everyone has their own opinion, and I also believe a lot of people on the internet just like to hop on band wagons. Without actually getting into a face to face conversation with someone that I know in real life, it's hard to tell who has read it and formed an opinion, and who just repeats what other people say on the web.
Ah, that's all nice and everything, but the fact is, people arguing for the stupidity of Draigo are doing so from an informed position, considering we're all citing the written material in our arguments. Conversely, the pro-Draigo camp's argument comes from the realm of make believe and apologetics, such as "Oh Draigo is all about tragedy because he only repeatedly owns the most powerful beings in the setting, rather than just once and for all" or "Draigo is a Greater Daemon Prince Saint of the Grey Emperor Knights."
So the bandwagon accusation can work both ways. In this case, you are the bandwagon-jumper, hopping on the "Ward hate is the norm, so I'm going to be a special unique snowflake by staunchly defending him" wagon. Unfortunately, you made a mistake picking this as your crusade, because while I'm all for people forming their own opinion, when it comes to Draigo, you are simply wrong
And frankly, admitting it would garner you far more respect than digging in your heels and going ad hominem.
So you're saying that if I don't agree with what you have to say, that makes my opinion wrong?
You make me laugh Omegus......
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/28 13:20:32
Well yes, if you don't agree with him that makes you wrong. Like I said before, 'opinion' isn't a word you can just throw around to make yourself invulnerable to criticism.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/28 13:30:25
Omegus wrote:No, you're wrong because your opinion is not based on facts and your argument rests entirely on insulting your opposition.
My opinion is that Draigo is a Sisyphean character that exemplifies the fact that the Grey Knights never truly win. You believe that he's an OTT Mary Sue that just rampages through the Warp. Your opinion is valid because you use examples from the fluff. My opinion is valid because I use examples from the fluff. Insulting other posters because you perceive them to insult you isn't very constructive. You believing that something isn't the case doesn't mean it can't be so.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
I cant figure why Brother Coa would dislike the GK dex. All his thread posts from memory points to him being all for the IoM being super awesome.
On subject:
K, So options for Draigo, either theory is valid, I am at this point seeking to collect the evidence for each side, within the setting. Please refrain from criticizing the grasp some people may or may not have on the written English language, as this brings us no closer to solving the enigma of Draigo. If the 3rd grade english teacher inside you must judge someones prose, make it mine, at least I will hear your critical opinion (followed, most likely, by prompt disregard for said critical opinion, but at least I hear you complain)
1.Super psychic powered warp reflection of powerful anti daemon psykers.
-Continued Existence in the Warp.
-Limited existence within the material realm
-Lack of knowledge concerning Grey Knight battle Brothers (Then I suppose the warp does warp time, but are you gonna tell me Draigo does not have a perfect memory in theory 2?)
2. The ultimo bad ass. Supreme Grand Leader Man of the most bad ass space marines, who are bad ass as a group to begin with.
-Space marines are Bad Ass, Grey Knights even more so
-Super anti Daemon training
-As Radiation put forth, "gives out autographs".
Omegus wrote:No, you're wrong because your opinion is not based on facts and your argument rests entirely on insulting your opposition.
My opinion is that Draigo is a Sisyphean character that exemplifies the fact that the Grey Knights never truly win. You believe that he's an OTT Mary Sue that just rampages through the Warp. Your opinion is valid because you use examples from the fluff. My opinion is valid because I use examples from the fluff. Insulting other posters because you perceive them to insult you isn't very constructive. You believing that something isn't the case doesn't mean it can't be so.
Read his fluff again. It's two pages of talking about how awesome he is, and examples of him accomplishing things no one else in the setting has ever accomplished, including the Emperor. Then there's a brief sentence about how the damage he does is inevitably repaired. Then it launches back into how awesome he is. The two viewpoints are not mutually exclusive. Sure, he's a Sisyphean character (1%), but he is also very much an OTT Mary Sue that just rampages through the Warp (99%). As per usual for Ward, he has an interesting idea that is horrendously executed because he is a very poor writer. That is what I've been arguing.
I have yet to insult anyone in this thread, I responded to an accusation that people who think Draigo is a Mary Sue are just uninformed bandwagon jumpers who are parroting what they read on the internet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/28 14:07:35
Wait a sec. Isn't just about every SM book have fluff about how awesome they are? GK specialize in killing all things daemon. So perhaps their most accomplished GM would be kicking butt and taking names in the warp. Then made to represent that on the table top.
It's not like he choked out an Avatar right? Oh wait.....wrong book.
$pider wrote:Wait a sec. Isn't just about every SM book have fluff about how awesome they are? GK specialize in killing all things daemon. So perhaps their most accomplished GM would be kicking butt and taking names in the warp. Then made to represent that on the table top.
It's not like he choked out an Avatar right? Oh wait.....wrong book.
It this serious? I'm having a hard time working it out.
Omegus wrote:No, you're wrong because your opinion is not based on facts and your argument rests entirely on insulting your opposition.
My opinion is that Draigo is a Sisyphean character that exemplifies the fact that the Grey Knights never truly win. You believe that he's an OTT Mary Sue that just rampages through the Warp. Your opinion is valid because you use examples from the fluff. My opinion is valid because I use examples from the fluff. Insulting other posters because you perceive them to insult you isn't very constructive. You believing that something isn't the case doesn't mean it can't be so.
In some ways he is, but that view only really holds for when he's in the Warp. The fact that he's able to leave the warp and boot head in the materium, and thus have a tangible impact on the universe weakens the tragic elements of being stuck in the warp and destroying things that are automagically recreated the second your back is turned. If Draigo were just background fluff, and was just a Grand Master who spent all his time running around the Warp, or the crunch was changed so that units he kills don't count as kill points or something, then the Sisyphean element would be stronger.
750 points
1000 Points
, clean his power armor and saying: "I am so badass".
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! 
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" 
in your name it shall be done" 
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
