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Hey everyone.

So...Primarchs. It seems everyone else has tinkered with them in their pre-heresy forms, so here's my attempt. I'll go through the 18 Space Marine Legions in order (I have a thing about the Legions at the moment, don't I ?) and try and update once every day. So, yeah, letsa go!:

Special Rule-PrimarchThe Primarch special rule provides the following abilities:
All Primarchs have the following special rules

All Primarchs have the Eternal warrior, Acute senses, and Fearless special rules. In addition, they confer fearless onto any squad they join.

All Primarchs have a special 3+ save against perils of the warp and other psychic attacks (this does NOT stack with any other similar benefits).

Primarchs may only be used in Apocalypse games.

An army led by a Primarch must be chosen from Codex: Space Marines, unless otherwise stated.

I. Lion'El Johnson, Primarch of the Dark Angels legion.
The Lion, the Angel of Caliban, The Grand Master.

WS: 8
BS: 6
S: 5
T: 5
W: 4
I: 6
A: 4
LD: 10
SV: 2+/ 4+
PTS: 600
Wargear: The Lion sword, master crafted bolt pistol, The mantle of the Order, The Lion helm, Frag and Krak grenades.
The Lion Sword: The Lion sword is a master crafted power sword which always inflicts instant death, regardless of the targets toughness.
Mnatle of the Order: The mantle of the Order is a suit of Artificier armour. In addition, Lion'El Johnson may re-roll all failed invunerable saves.
The Lion Helm: The Lion helm provides a 4+ invunerable save to Johnson and any unit he accompanies.

Special Rules: Primarch, Independant charector, Taciturn, Master of the art of war, Legion tactics.
Tactiturn: Only models from the Dark Angels army may use Johnsons leadership.
Master of the arts of war: An army containing the Lion has the careful planning strategic asset for free.
Legion tactics: An army containing Lion'El Johnson loses the combat tactics rule. Instead, all models have the stubborn special rules. If you have numerous models with the Legion tactics special rule, you must choose wihich one will apply.

Sheild of Caliban: The mantle of the Order is a suit of Artificier armour. In addition, Lion'El Johnson may re-roll all failed invunerable saves.

Ok, What does the "Sheild" of Caliban do?

Nightwatch wrote:

Sheild of Caliban: The mantle of the Order is a suit of Artificier armour. In addition, Lion'El Johnson may re-roll all failed invunerable saves.

Ok, What does the "Sheild" of Caliban do?

Derp derp I'm silly.

Primarchs are superhumans, not gods.

I'd lower those stats, but unfortunately you have the ridiculous Mephiston, who they should be better than, but who has simply stupid stats. If it weren't for Mephiston, whose statline I would nerf anyway and make him cheaper, if I had a choice, despite being a BA player, I'd say;

WS: 8 (Disagreed. 8 would be in line with the Sanguinor, which seems right to me. This is far better than any Chapter Master, and even better than Phoenix Lords, which seems a slight stretch, but just about acceptable.)
BS: 6 (Agreed. As it should be, this would be better than the very best humans/marines out there, ie Chapter Masters and the like. Only Sergeant Telion measures up, and he is worse in every other regard, so that seems right.)
S: 5 (Disagree. Again, S5 is in line with the Sanguinor, and more than anyone else)
T: 5 (Disagree. T5 would be the toughest there is, except for Ortan Cassius, who is mostly mechanical)
W: 5 (Disagree. Wounds 5 would still be better than the very best humans/marines, and far more than Phoenix Lords)
I: 6 (Disagree. Yours seems a tad high. I would say I6, which puts them just below Phoenix Lords. I gave Primarchs the edge over Phoenix Lords with WS, I don't think they should have higher Initiative too. Of course, this puts them only level with Autarchs, etc, which I think is reasonable, bu you may not. I7 would be just abou feasible, level with Phoenix Lords, but they should NOT be faster then Phoenix Lords, so I7 max. On the other hand, Phoenix Lords should be I8 in my opinion, but there you go...)
A: 5 (Disagree. A5 is still more than Marneus Calgar, Eldar Avatars and Phoenix Lords. I thought about A4, but A5 is just about reasonable.)
LD: 10 (Agreed. No brainer. Maybe even 11!!!)
SV: 2+/ 4+ (Agreed)

As for points cost, I have no opinion.

WS 9 is too high IMO. Yes, the best of the Primarchs could kill more or less anything one-on-one, but WS9 means hitting MEQs on 3s, which is a bit silly. I would say 8 ought to be the best personal fighters among the Primarchs; Angron, Fulgrim, Russ, Sanguinius. If Johnson was part of that cadre (don't know much about him) then 8 is good, otherwise 7.

T6 is right in my opinion; possibly even T7. No weapon is strong enough to ID a Primarch, and not all heavy weapons ought to get a 2+ to wound against them. In Fulgrim, Ferrus Mannus took a blastmaster shot to the face and wasn't even mussed.

Wounds ought to be 5 or 4. Save 6 for the legendarily tough Primarchs, like Mortarion.

Initiative; once again, I'd say 8 is a value that should be saved for those Primarchs which were famous for that characteristic. Fulgrim, for instance, might have I8. Mortarion certainly wouldn't, nor would Perturabo, nor Dorn. For Johnson I don't know, was he particularly fast? If not, I'd say 6 or 7.


Just out of curiosity, how do you picture the Primarchs?

The revised Johnson looks about right.
Maybe lower the points by 50.

But i agree that WS should be 8 or possibly 7
10 is bloodthrister/Avatar/God level.
9 is pretty close to that but only the cc oriented primarches should have WS 9

BeRzErKeR wrote:WS 9 is too high IMO. Yes, the best of the Primarchs could kill more or less anything one-on-one, but WS9 means hitting MEQs on 3s, which is a bit silly. I would say 8 ought to be the best personal fighters among the Primarchs; Angron, Fulgrim, Russ, Sanguinius. If Johnson was part of that cadre (don't know much about him) then 8 is good, otherwise 7.

Just to nickpick, but you do realize that WS5 means hitting MEQ's on 3's right? The only difference is what the defender needs to hit back with. I think WS8 needs 4's while a WS9 needs 5's to hit.

jbunny wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:WS 9 is too high IMO. Yes, the best of the Primarchs could kill more or less anything one-on-one, but WS9 means hitting MEQs on 3s, which is a bit silly. I would say 8 ought to be the best personal fighters among the Primarchs; Angron, Fulgrim, Russ, Sanguinius. If Johnson was part of that cadre (don't know much about him) then 8 is good, otherwise 7.

Just to nickpick, but you do realize that WS5 means hitting MEQ's on 3's right? The only difference is what the defender needs to hit back with. I think WS8 needs 4's while a WS9 needs 5's to hit.

Yes, you're right. I knew there was a difference, I just forgot which difference it was. Still, being hit on 5s as opposed to 4s is a pretty big difference. . .

The stats are too high. Look at Mephiston’s stat line (with psychic powers taken into account) and that pretty much is a primarch stat line. Take all the over exaggerated primarch fluff with a grain of salt. Generally most of the primarch stuff is written from biased perspective (such as an Ultramarine talking about Guillman)

Thats exactly the kind of feedback I need-thanks everyone! The revisions have been made.

III. Fulgrim, Primarch of the Emperors Children Legion
The Phoenician, the Eagle, the Perfect warrior.


WS: 9
BS: 6
S: 5
T: 5
W: 4
I: 8
A: 5
LD: 10
SV: 2+/ 4+
PTS: 625
Wargear: Fireblade, Phoenix armour, Master crafted bolt pistol, Iron halo, Frag and Krak grenades.
Fireblade: Fireblade is a master crafted power sword that will never wound any target on worse than a 3+-even if the targets touhgness is equal to or higher than Fulgrims strength, he will still wound on a 3+.
Phoenix armour: Phoenix armour is a suit of Artificier armour. If Fulgrim fails an armour save, he may re-roll it, but will instead only pass it on a 5+ instead of a 2+.

Special rules: Primarch, Independant charector, Quest for perfection, Legion tactics.
Quest for Perfection: In assault, Fulgrim re-rolls all misses. In addition, if facing an opponent with base toughness of five or higher he may reroll all failed wounds.
Legion tactics: An army containing Fulgrim loses the combat tactics rule. Instead, all models have the Preffered enemy special rule when fighting a model with WS5 or higher. If you have numerous models with the Legion tactics special rule, you must choose wihich one will apply

I might have missed something on the first one, but Dark Angels don't have combat tactics to replace with Stubborn.

jbunny wrote:I might have missed something on the first one, but Dark Angels don't have combat tactics to replace with Stubborn.

The 'Primarch' special rule meanst that the army the Primarch is selected for always uses the Regular Space Marine codex unless otherwise stated (for instance, Sanguinius legion tactic will be to use the Blood Angels codex).

He said all units use the standard marine codex.

I agree with the statline as they are now, mostly. I think S5 and T5 are perfect for a base primarch as it is one level above marines (its only a broodlord S and T really, so no need to worry that its OP). I also think I5 is good for a base primarch. Since Fulgrim and the Lion were known as excellent swordsmen it makes sense that their WS and I are higher.

I8 is kind of high though. And 5 wounds seems really high too, almost a Trygon!

What do you think about the bases? 40mm?

Don't forget to leave room at the top of the stats for the Emperor! (Pre-heresy of course.)

Edit: Broodlord, not genestealer

40mm is Termie size, amiright? If so, yeah, thats probably about right.

Wounds...hmm, it pains me to give Primarchs less than 5 wounds, but if thats what the people want I suppose I'll give it to 'em.

Well primarchs are quite big, they could be big enough that when you model them thy have a drednought base? At least for the bigger primarchs.

EagleArk wrote:Well primarchs are quite big, they could be big enough that when you model them thy have a drednought base? At least for the bigger primarchs.

Hmmm, Angron, Pert, Dorn or Horus mebbe. Not sure about the others.

Ok, that makes sense to me. Like I said I must of missed something

ONly problem I have with the possibility of fielding a Primarch is:

The entire weight of the opponent's army will be directed against him in the first turns of the game. I don't care how good your artificer armour is, it's not going to hold forever!

Close combat WS 9???? ouch. And with fancy weapons to boot that cause instant death and/or wound on 3+

Too much in my opinion.

Make them a slightly more powerful Marneus Calgar, not gods.


As for the Emperor.....

10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 2+ (2++)

Why such a low BS on Fulgrim? He seems like a gung-ho kind of guy, with lots of flashy weaponry.

Also, Fulgrim has a deamon weapon. Isn't that +d6 attacks?

This is pre-heresy then.

When you take a little peek into few codexes you can see that WS10 has been given to CC gods. Primarchs are not CC gods neither is Emperor (Horus saved his life because an ork warlord was choking him). Primarch can be pretty much equalled to the phoenix lords.
Im not giving any pecific stats but you have to lower them.

I'll throw my 2p in

I reckon primarchs should have a statline fairly above Mephiston, considering these lads have been kicking alien ass across the galaxy for 200 years!

Maybe wounds 6 for the less tough ones and for the likes of Mortarion W7-8!!!!!

As a base line I'd say BS5 WS7 S6 T5 I6 W5 and work up from there. If they are to be used they should be truly epic

Im not sure why everyone here wants the primarchs nerfed so bad. If these are only to be used in Apoc games i see no reason why they should not have 5 wounds. For 600 points 4 wounds doesnt cut it when i can have 5 wounds at 250...

I think the revised lion 'el johnson rules are near perfect. Fits him very well. The wargear isnt over done and the statline isnt crazy. Keep him the same points and add a wound and then i think hes balanced.

Fulgrim is looking pretty good. In the fluff he actually kills an avatar so i dont think WS9 and I8 are by any means too much.

The only thing i dont like about Fulgrim is his "Quest for perfection rule" Essentially is an enhanced USR "Rage" which really lowers his effectiveness. And in all reality, should a primarch commanding an army just run off to go fight someone? I think this rule could be changed to give him re-rolls to wound against anything T5 or higher. To show his ever growing skills at defeating opponents as tough or tougher than he is. But if the current rule is to stay in place, lower his cost by at least 75 points.

mrwittwer wrote:The only thing i dont like about Fulgrim is his "Quest for perfection rule" Essentially is an enhanced USR "Rage" which really lowers his effectiveness. And in all reality, should a primarch commanding an army just run off to go fight someone? I think this rule could be changed to give him re-rolls to wound against anything T5 or higher. To show his ever growing skills at defeating opponents as tough or tougher than he is. But if the current rule is to stay in place, lower his cost by at least 75 points.

Done. I just want people to know that this project isn't dead, but I've been insanely busy lately and so it's been 'on hold' so to speak. I will be doing some updates over the next few days, so heres everyone favourite boring old man:

IV. Perturabo, Primarch of the Iron warriors legion.
The Iron Primarch, The Master of Olympia, Seigebreaker.


WS: 7
BS: 6
S: 5
T: 5
W: 5
I: 5
A: 4
LD: 10
SV: 2+/3+
PTS: 625
Wargear: Hammer of Olympia, Castellans Mantle, Master crafted Combi-Melta, Frag and Krak Grenades.
Hammer of Olympia: The Hammer of Olympia is a master crafted Thunder hammer that rolls 2d6+str when rolling to penertrate vehicles, and 3d6+str when rolling to penertrate buildings.
Castellans Mantle: The Castellans Mantle is a suit of Terminator armour that is so reinforced that it grants Perturabo a 3+ Invunerable save, rather than the regular 5+.
Special rules: Primarch, Independant charector, Tactically brilliant, Cold, Rivalry, Legion tactics.
Tactically Brilliant: An army containing Perturabo may take the Precision strike OR Strategic redeployment strategic asset for free.
Cold: Only models from the Iron warriors army may use Perturabo's Leadership.
Rivalry: All Imperial fists (freindly and enemy) within 12" of Perturabo suffer -1 to their Leadership (If Rogal Dorn leads their army, this rule does not take effect).
Legion Tactics: An army containing Perturabo loses the Combat tactics rule. Instead, all models may reroll any results on the damage chart when rolling against vehicles or buildings. If you have multiple models with the Legion tactics special rule, you must choose which one will apply.

I am loving Perturabo. The only thing i am a little unsure of is his WS. I would say WS7 due to his main power being his tactical ability and long range warfare. Otherwise he looks great.

Fair enough.

Many of the Primarchs that turned against the Emperor are now Daemon Princes and they considered that an upgrade.

These guys are when all the Primarchs were fighting for the Emperor-think of it as "pre sixty-three-nineteen" versions of them.

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:These guys are when all the Primarchs were fighting for the Emperor-think of it as "pre sixty-three-nineteen" versions of them.

If this was in response about the Daemon Princes, my intentions were to suggest that he use their statline as a gauge since the Chaos turned Primarchs are now Daemon princes and Daemon Princes were considered an upgrade. Obviously if the Primarchs had 6 Strength and 6 Toughness, being turned into a Daemon Prince would have probably sucked.