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So I'm going to be getting into CSM soon, I have a bunch of models that will need putting together and all, but I was wondering about the fast attack choices.
I know chaos spawn are instantly out, but I was wondering about bikers and raptors. I never see them in tourney lists, but does that mean they're bad? What are some good uses for the two units and what are some good ways to run them? What are soem reasons not to use them?

People seem to generally not like them cause they ether cost to much or are not as good as they once were or some other reason.

I use raptors pretty often and I always do well with them. Give them 2 meltas and they can hunt tanks as well as take on just about anything with in reason just fine.

This is a message I sent in a PM asking about Raptors:


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"I can tell you that at 1750+, I generally run:

7-9 Raptors (depending on how many points I have left over)
Champion w/ Power Fist
Icon of Chaos Glory
x2 Meltas

In order to run raptors you have to play to their strengths, otherwise why not just take another squad of CSM troops? I C&P'd this from a post I made:

"You have to ask yourself, if Im going to take a squad of raptors, what do they do that CSM dont?

1. They have the largest melta range in the entire army. At 18", only Oblits w/ multimelta that roll 6 to move (luck), dreads with MM (not a viable loadout), and bikes (expensive) tie the range. And even then Raptors almost completely ignore cover, meaning a building in the way is not an issue (they have 18" in a straight line).

2. They can hop over cover, completely hidden from enemy fire until they reach combat. IG obviously has some barrage, but keeping the raptors behind rhinos for the most part will keep them completely safe. Yes, you may be losing out on the run, and moving the same speed as the troops...but here is the next point...

3. They can move 12" and assault 6". They can do this by hopping over a rhino/cover, meaning they get into combat a round earlier than your rhinos. This also means your rhinos are more likely to survive since now youre tying up 1 or 2 units with your raptors. They can also be kept in reserve and protect 18" of your side, especially in the table corners deployment.

4. They can deepstrike...which is actually not a bad idea, albeit risky. If youre playing something like a gunline (IG), and you have LOS blocking terrain, you can DS them in and hop over it the next turn, assaulting the line. Its better than getting barrage'd to death."


The strategy I used was to keep them behind rhinos until they were in range of a charge or they could trail off and hide behind a piece of terrain that would completely block line of sight. I used them to guarantee charge on orks, pick off lone tanks (and getting right into another fight the next turn thanks to the jump packs), and overall controlling opponent's movements. They are completely underrated. They are not overpriced (you are essentially trading the rhino for jump packs points wise).

One thing that was great about them was having them arrive from my table edge in the spearhead deployment. It means that anything that is brave enough to be within 18" of your board edge is getting charged (including any deepstrikers).
"

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As for Bikers...I would run 3 with 2 meltas. Keep them hidden behind buildings and pop some tanks turn two.

I have had good success in my area with bikers as nobody really runs any biker type. I typically run them with two meltas and Asp. Champ. with fist around 9 strong or use them like termicides at three strong and with two meltas. Termicides are more cost effective but for the points bikers can move 24" and have a 3+ cover save.
Raptors can work well for you if you have places to hide them, and usually you do, Havent run these guys so dont know the best loadout for them.

Would using raptors as a drop point for termicide also be an ok tactic? I mean not just for that use, but they're a much more mobile drop point for termis aren't they?

Keeping in mind that you can't teleport the Termicide Squad without scatter on the same turn that the raptors deep strike. Therefore, it is a somewhat risky and time-consuming process, so I wouldnt advise it. A biker squad with an Icon can turbo boost 24" and get a 3+ cover save.
Its your choice, I'd suggest some games with a friend where you can 'counts as' to see how everything works with the rest of your list.

Raptors can be highly effective in the right circumstances. Night Lords has got that one covered.

Given the name, we probably all should've seen that one coming.

The chief obstacle I think to the bike squad is the prohibitive points cost. At 33 points/model and no possibility of being fielded as troops, they have to make their points back by killing. If they stay out of assault range, though, they're limited to one twin-linked bolter shot per model, which is next to useless as a tactic, and if you get within rapid fire range you're going to need to be absolutely sure that NOBODY can assault them. In assault they'll lose to even second-tier assault units simply because you're spending so many points on them. All in all, they might be worth a small unit to mess up enemy heavy-shooting infantry, but generally I don't recommend them.

The only successful use of bikers I've ever seen was a tiny, three-model unit with two meltaguns and an icon of chaos glory. The guy turbo-boosted every round, finally dropping a big gang of terminators and a trio of obliterators right behind the lines, which proceeded to shred my entire left flank. If you've got a lot of teleporters, it might be worth the 129 points. Otherwise, might want to let them sit it out until someone prints new rules for the Doomrider.

My tournament Nurgle build ( 22-1-1 ) uses bikers to good effect.
6 bikers with 2 x melta and a naked champ with MoN led by a sorcerer on a bike with MoN and warp time. This is a beautiful greater daemon delivery system that rarely lets me down.

Bikers are generally considered sub par and greater daemons are supposedly worse. I strongly disagree.

BloodyHandedGod

I would not advise you to take any chaos fast attack choices. they are overpriced and underpowered.

about raptors in particular, since someone was saying they had alot of good points....
raptors are too expensive for what they are. at 25 points a man these guys arent any harder to kill than your normal 15 point space marines, and the benefits of having a jump pack as opposed to a rhino are questionable. for one your troops inside a rhino are pretty safe unit that rhino gets blown away, so the rhino is taking the 1st shot for them. raptors have no such protection so they tend to die quicker. yes they can deep strike their meltaguns but its a pretty expensive unit to risk deep striking it that close to the bad guys. 3 terminators with combi-meltas can do the same job for fewer points and with a greater likelyhood of killing the target. so if all you want out of these guys is to deliver melta attacks raptors are emphatically *not* the way to do it.
in short raptors are expensive, vulnerable, not very good shooters, and not very good in close combat. the only thing they really bring to the table is an 18" charge and the ability to go up buildings. whoopy. take the extra turn and get there with a *good* unit.

besides that raptors are expensive and the models refuse to stand up strait.

as a chaos player your strengths are your hq and troop sections. take as many of these as possible. obliterators and terminators are good too. the rest of the codex you can more or less forget about.
AF

They are 20 points a peice, not 25... I stopped reading the paragraph after that.

I've had some success using Raptors with Meltas, they're good at zapping things quickly

Only problem I have with them is when their poor weight distribution causes them to fall and break during the movement phase

DarkHound wrote:They are 20 points a peice, not 25... I stopped reading the paragraph after that.

Rofl, I noticed that as well but kept reading anyway. I'm probably going to proxy then for a game or five to see how they play and if I like them. I was once told that a good general can win a game with almost any unit, even if the unit is used as a screen or something (though I don't ever see that happening with chaos spawn, lol)

Plus I don't intend to you the actual raptor model, I'm just going to conver them from possessed or vanilla marines. I need to practice with GS and I figure making little winds from wire and GS is a decent way to. Plus I really, really do not like the raptor model or it's metallicness.

I do like the idea of the small bike squad tearing up the field as an icon bearer though.

I run a small Biker squad. 4 men with 2 Meltaguns and an Icon of Slaanesh. They're my cleaning crew: roll up and dump 4 TL-Bolter shots into them, then assault at I5. Its enough to finish off crippled squads without them taking damage in return. On top of that, my army is very Deepstrike heavy so their mobility is another tool for me.

I like Raptors, but not for me. Listen to Night Lords, he's smart with his army.

I run 2x 5 man raptor squads with 2x melta and no champ (though I am thinking of changing that at some point to give them a bit more punch in CC).

I use them to draw the enemy out of position, pick off vehicles (which they are pretty damn good at) and strike at small units of troops which are not worth attacking with any of my other units, or other targets of opportunity.

I tend to play on terrain heavy boards though, so they have lots of places to hide out of LOS.

W/E ficus on a points cost mistake if you want. Raptors are garbage. AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes a good general can win with bad troops. A good general does not choose bad troops when good ones are available. Which you would think would go without saying...

Well, I would call them different...and not garbage.
Remember that with point of view your opinions may not be entirely correct.

Raptors bring different things to an army that some like and some don't.

I don't like them, but it's foolish to completely discount them ( much like spawn, possessed, Dreads ).

Raptors bring:
-Earlier to lock the enemy in combat than RHino squads.
-2 Special weapons in under 10 models.
-Deepstriking special weapons if need be.
-They can do combat if need be.
-Expendable where as troop choices may not be.
-Able to operate on a flank or in an area devoid of an objective (as troops tend to gravitate toward objectives).
-Winged IC's or Deamon Prince bodyguard/support respectively

Basically, if you have usage for these things, then Raptors are a functional choice.
Otherwise, they are not one's cup of tea... hardly garbage though.

I've had mixed results with bikers acting as a screaming beacon for the oblits/terminators deepstriking and much success running just one unit of 5 man raptors with 2 meltas to simply drop fly around and melta some tanks, as the rest of the army is causing the necessary distraction to not warrant shots at the raptors. Sometimes even exposing a potential target helps them survive to get another much needed kill, said squad is still alive and the raptors have earned you another notch on the kill tally.

I'm less permissive in army selection.. IMO it's not about individual preferences determining choices between a list of more or less equivalent options.

Each unit has a specific points cost a specific set of capabilities and a specific mission to perform. Given that information there is one and only one unit in each codex that provides the best capability for the fewest points. That is the correct selection the other choices should be ignored. Raptors fall into that category for the Purposes of the missions we were talking about ... Delivering melta weapons and fighting in close combat

AF

Raptors are amazing. I don't know why people poo-poo on them. At 20 points each, they cost less than plague marines, can take the same amount of meltas and move 12 inches. Why not? I'm making an effort to tech in at least 10 Raptors in my lists. They're a prime target, but whatever, so are most of my other units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I'm less permissive in army selection.. IMO it's not about individual preferences determining choices between a list of more or less equivalent options.

Each unit has a specific points cost a specific set of capabilities and a specific mission to perform. Given that information there is one and only one unit in each codex that provides the best capability for the fewest points. That is the correct selection the other choices should be ignored. Raptors fall into that category for the Purposes of the missions we were talking about ... Delivering melta weapons and fighting in close combat

AF

Okay bro. I think we heard you the first three times. You're obviously wrong in your own preference. Throwing a label on an unpopular unit is what leads to monotony and cookie-cutter lists. What do you run? Plague marines and obliterators?

I use a 6 man Raptor squad with IoS, Melta, Flamer, and Dual Claws Champ. Not the most cost effective unit but they fill a utility role in my army that no other unit can cover as outlined by Night Lords earlier in the thread.

I have also started using a 5 man Biker squad with 2 Meltas, IoCG and a Fist Champ. Again, not the most cost effective but they create a unit that must be killed or they will make a mess of things with deep strikers, daemons, and transport popping.

It should be noted that I don't use either unit in my tournament armies, but they are wicked fun and occasionally effective in friendly games.

Raptors are fine in a 5-man, 2-melta, deepstrike suicide tankhunter unit. 120 points. If they take out a landraider, Vindicator, Leman Russ, whatever, they can make up their points, as well as providing something that draws enemy fire during the following turn. Run a couple of those units and you increase your chance of getting them from reserve and have double the surprise fun.

The problem with chaos fast attack is that chaos doesn't need fast attack in our armies. The fact that our jump infantry costs an extra 5 points a model compared to 2 for codex marines and that our bikes cost 8 more points than a codex marine bike could be overlooked if they filled a vital role that we could not live without, but that is just not the case. Choas lords, sorcerers, and deamon princes can all move as jump infintry, and we have the best rhonos out of any codex even BA. Fast on a rhino does nothing but allow all the troops inside the ability to die with no saves if the rhino splodes while moving flat out, and it let's the rhino shoot a storm bolter while moving 12", and the discounted price is a perk attached to assault squads, not the rhino. With the ability to buy our rhinos havoc launchers, combimeltas, or combi plasmas we have great rhinos so all of our troops can move 12" in a good transport. If our troops and hq are both rock solid, and fast. Enough that we don't need fast attack.

Summoned greater deamons work great without bikes. If anything a bike champ with no upgrades makes the sgd predictable. Plague marine champs with a fist only cost 15 points more than a bare bones bike champ, and a vanilla champ with a fist costs 7 points more. If any army has 4 near equal champs your opponent won't know where the sgd is going to pop up.

Anyone else notice those that are against fast attack do not know basic point values and rules?

Nurgle Bikers are NAASTAAY, toughness 6 bikes my friend with FNP!

schadenfreude wrote:Summoned greater deamons work great without bikes. If anything a bike champ with no upgrades makes the sgd predictable. Plague marine champs with a fist only cost 15 points more than a bare bones bike champ, and a vanilla champ with a fist costs 7 points more. If any army has 4 near equal champs your opponent won't know where the sgd is going to pop up.

Or you can have all 4 Champions in addition to the Biker's Champion. Isn't that more difficult for your opponent? Put them all where a Greater Daemon would hurt his army and watch him squirm. That's what I do.

Brother Heinrich wrote:Nurgle Bikers are NAASTAAY, toughness 6 bikes my friend with FNP!

How do you get FNP? Using the old book still? T6 is nice but it quickly makes the unit way too pricey for single wound models, regardless of their toughness.

Agree with schadenfreude.

Samus. Yes lash princes plague marines obliterators terminators. These are good chaos units. I don't play that book anymore though bc the army is limited. Blue marines and red marines are better.

As long as I'm winning consistently I'm going to assume I'm doing something right. It's not a game of preferences like do you prefer vanilla or chocolate. There are right and wrong answers.

Bloody asked for opinions and he got some. If y'all want to start a raptors fan club god bless... but try not to blow a screw when someone disagrees k?

AF

BladeWalker wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:Nurgle Bikers are NAASTAAY, toughness 6 bikes my friend with FNP!

How do you get FNP? Using the old book still? T6 is nice but it quickly makes the unit way too pricey for single wound models, regardless of their toughness.

Not really. I'd pay 41 points for a fast moving T6 twin-linked bolter guy.

I believe MON's are 40 points per unit, so in a unit of 5 Bikers, you pay roughly 41 points per biker, which is more than a terminator, but probably more effective. In a list above 2000 points, this works great.

50 points per unit. So they're 43 a pop. That is really expensive.

Something people tend to forget about Chaos Space Marine Bikers is that they have Twin-Linked Bolters, Relentless, a Bolt Pistol, and Close Combat Weapon. Given their most effective range, this really does make them more valuable at engaging and defeating the enemy than Space Marine Bikers.