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So I'm browsing C:IG and I notice the Vets can get some doctrines. They've all got the same cost, but which has the best value? The carapace armor is the most vanilla, but a 4+ save isn't terrible if you plan on fighting a lot of Tau like I do. Forward Sentries seems nifty, but the camo cloaks hard to model and they don't get the ability to set up in advance. The last one gives quite a boost to Anti-Tank firepower, and a demo charge is nice but if my 5+ vets are close enough to melta bomb a tank that requires melta bombs I'm screwed - and I can just take actual meltas.

What do you Guard Generals think?

M.

None of the above.

Each upgrade is about half the price of just buying another squad of Vets.

2-3 Upgrades would have been another Vet squad.

Or better yet, just use the points to get a Chimera

With my fledging Guard force, I normally go for the Carapace armor. The 4+ save is truely a Emperor blessing, though for 30 points it looks expensive, but its only really 3 pts a model.

Also consider popping Harker in a squad, and give them the Demolition charge option, thats what I plan on running. He gives them all the special rules from the Catachan Devils he gives the squad, plus the benifits from the doctrines.

I never have, and never will even consider Forward Sentries. I'll be running a foot slogger build backed up by tanks and I want 'Dozens' of Sentinel, armored and scouting.

Hope you find this informative. Gl ^^

generally, they're somewhat too expensive for what they do, while making an expensive, fragile unit more expensive, without making it any less fragile.

I think the only time I'd consider bringing doctrines on vets would be when vets would be preforming the role of support units that also count as scoring. An infantry horde can take 2 3x melta SWS for a 3x melta vet squad with grenadiers (or whatever), so I'd take them when it was worth it to exchange 3 meltaguns for grenadiers and 1 fewer KP.

Basically, at that blurry line when vets overlap with stormies. Otherwise, it's usually better to not bother with doctrines, and invest the points towards more infantry or bigger artillery, etc.

Ailaros is exactly right.

Just not worth it. But I'd suggest playing a few games with a Doctrine you like, and then playing a few games without Doctrines (but with more Vets), and see which plays better...

:::psst::: this is a trick statement, because Vet Spam always plays better

I really like Demolitions because it gives you the ability to blow up a transport with one unit then vaporize the unit with another.. Its expensive, but can be usual if played well

Demolitions isn't bad for the points, a demo charge costs 20 points for a SWS, so getting 10 melta bombs for 10 points is a good deal. The question then is whether you ever need that much cc anti-tank. Then only role I can see would be a air-cav 1st turn multi-assault against a parking lot.

The golden rule of IG is to get more bodies and more guns instead of trying to shore up a few units to "elite" status. Demolitions is the only one I would personally consider but only against certain enemies ( DA, Orks and a few others ).

I agree with the less tricks more boots option...

Agreed. Imperial Guardsman are going to die even with a 4+ save, or a +1 to their cover save. They're still T3, and they're still going to die in droves. As everyone else said, the only time I would consider doctrines is if you're doing an Air Cav alpha strike, the demolitions has the potential to be useful against a parking lot army. But even then, I'd rather take those 30 points and use it to bigger tanks, or just more boots on the ground.

6 squad doctrines is 180 points, thats around 3 1/4 chimeras you need for your Mech Vets!

Or to put it another way:

6 Footslogging Melta Vets with 4+ Armor (or 1+ to Cover, or Demolistions)

OR

5 Melta Vets in Chimeras

Ummm... more Chimera's Spam please, it's my favorite

In game, are they really worth wasting a troop choice over as opposed to an entire PLATOON of regular guardsmen?

M.

Infantryman wrote:In game, are they really worth wasting a troop choice over as opposed to an entire PLATOON of regular guardsmen?

M.

Yes, because you get BS4 as well as the option for 3 special weapons. While you can take a lot more bodies in Guardsman squads, you'd need to spend a lot more points to get anywhere close to the amount of death that a Veteran squad will put out. In a very basic mathhammer....

Veterans w/ 3x Melta gun is 2 meltas hitting each shooting phase (statistically).

2x Guardsman + PCS w/ 4x Mela is also 2 meltas hitting each shooting phase. However, this way costs 70 points more than the Veterans above. It's even more if you wanted to take the meltas in the Guardsman squads.

Yes, vets are useful. They're good when you want to relatively minimize the number of points you spend on troops. Also, they're so fragile that you basically need to put them in chimeras or vendettas, which pairs really nicely with tread-heavy lists.

If you're running an infantry-heavy list, then vets are still useful. The role they fill there is a support unit, very similar to stormtroopers. While foot vets lose out lots of bling, they are cheaper, and are scoring. That said, if you want them to do a better job at support, then spending the points to give them doctrines is actually a good idea.

That said, the number of foot lists I've actually seen with vets as support units can be counted on zero fingers, but that doesn't mean that doctrine vets are completely without use in a foot list.

Vets are great. Dare I say it, stuffing them in a chimera with 3 meltas is cookie cutter. Problem with platoons is that they are a little hard to control effectively whereas vets are almost dummy proof (of course they still die like guardsmen though)

I'd consider Demolitions at lower points levels where you can't afford the buy-in for more Veterans. Past 1.5k, I wouldn't consider it except in an exclusively Air-Cav list. The Veteran Doctrines this time around are a missed opportunity on GW's part.

Uff, does GW know missed chances or what? I was very :( to see that there are so many new options in terms of new units, but little apparent options in terms of what goes on in each unit. When I played guard, you could make a big force of highly kitted out Last Chancers, and even give squad sergeants bolters. Now...not so much. I can't even give the guy a lasgun!

M.

I kinda like the Carapace armour for saving my plasma vets from immolating themselves.