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A lot of people use models to proxy other models, e.g. Carnifex for Tervigons and a chimera chassis with and autocannon team for a hydra flak tank.
I want to know your opinions on this sort of stuff. Is it ok?

I think its annoying when people consistently proxy the same unit.

If you are with friends, hell yes.
At the flgs, I would say, as long as you are working on the real thing.
And, if you are in a tournament, no way.

In friendly games, its not an issue. My battle-buddy is working on a new army and uses some pieces from his old army to fill spaces.

Now, in a tournament? Hell no...

Re option 2 - Why would a model only being available from Forgeworld give you a pass on making a proper conversion?

Unless you're genuinely just trying a unit out before you buy it, either buy the model or do a proper conversion.

I am in the boat that people should know what they are getting.
Playtesting is quite important and proxies is one way to do it.

If they are not proxying, then I guess Vassal would be the other option.

Either way, the intention of the person in question is really the defining point of whether or not proxying is helpful or harmful.

Personally i've always had the rule of: If ya don't have it, ya can't play it!

Especially in competitive play!

Discriminating against the poor, shame. j/k
Though I do agree with Skarshak in competitive environments... but it's up to the TO, their call (which is likely 'No').

I've never had an issue with it, unless it's competitive play.

Hell, I've had friends use empty soda cans as proxies for greater daemons before. As long as it stays consistent.

Here's my thing. If you wanted a Carnifax then why did you buy a Biovore?

Play with the models you actually bought, I say. If you feel you can't win with them, learn some new tactics!!!

OK, I actually don't mind proxies once in a while or in small numbers. But I'd rather play a 400 pt game with all the models properly represented than a 1500 point game where my opponent is playing with 50% proxied models.

Now if he's using something awesome from another line of minis, a conversion, or something else that's original to represent a certain model, I am all for that. Unpainted I can deal with, too, I guess I do it.

So in moderation, OK. As a way of life, NO!

Proxies are fine for a game between friends. I wouldnt try at the lgs or a tourney tho.

I think it depends on how many models are being proxied. If it's one or two, for the sake of play testing, or because someone forgot a model at home, I've got no issue with it. If it gets to the point where opponent or I start forgetting what's what, then there's an issue. I also don't particularly like when the stand in model has vastly different line of sight properties than the model it represents. Finally, I think once you've made up your mind about the model, buy the real thing if you want to keep using it, otherwise swap it out for something else. I think after 3 games against the same proxy is when I'd say something to this effect.

Proxy because you're looking to try something new out before spending the money? I have no problem with that.

It's a massive grey area for me. In general, if it's cool, it's OK.

So anything heavily converted, I'm pretty cool with.

If it's done because the player is just unwilling to spend a couple bucks for basic units, that's not good. This would be the case of using bottle caps for Guardsmen, especially if there's no intention of every buying real models.

If it's to try something out or for a scenario, that can make my 'rules' a bit more flexible.

I admit this is completely arbitrary.

Proxying is ok in certain instances.

I mean, technically you are supposed to model melta bombs but who does that?

I would say tha the same is true for small things like adrenal glands, wolf tail talisman, etc....

As long as those are on your sheets then fine.

Now, lets separate that little tid-bit, cause in tournament play this happens all the time.

The 2nd level of proxying is the infamous "counts as" unit on the table. This happens mostly with marine players that are too cheap to buy special characters and model a regular unit to look like him with conversion work. This can also happen where your ultra marine army is using the Black templar codex today. 'I have been guilty of this as well"

I generally don't have a problem with it, as long as the unit is very unique looking.

Now the 3rd level of proxy is something that I think the community generally despises. These are things like a tank with no weapons, bases with only legs on them. A piece of paper on the table. These things are unacceptable at the tournament level.

Also proxying doesn't stop on the table. I really despise people that have lazy army lists that I can't follow. notebook paper with some gak scribbled on it doesn't inspire confidence in me that you are not cheating.

I have never run into anyone using proxies, but I dont think I would have a problem with it in moderation. If someone wants to try out something before they commit to the purchase, I can understand that. On the same note however, I do not want to go against someone who says "Ok the paperclips are space marines, the aluminum cans are drop pods, the paper cups are rhinos, and the ball of pocket lint is my dreadnought". I would also get frustrated with someone who has been using the same ball of pocket lint for the past 6 months, because he doesnt want to fork over the money for the real model.

Myself, I dont think i would ever use a proxy. If I want a Trygon in my army, then I will go buy a trygon. If I cant afford a trygon, then I will either go without or buy a less expensive model and adjust my tactics accordingly.

If neither one of these options will work for someone, then they maybe need to find another hobby.

Generally I really don't have a problem with proxying - it's what I used to get used to the feel of larger games before committing to spend $250 to shift my points level from 1000 to 1500. Do you have bases available that are the correct size? Do you have a basic idea of how tall they are? Do you just want to try this army out for fun? Go ahead. See if I make a fuss. As long as you have the correct bases or an accurate cardboard cutout of the unit footprint, I don't care.

I knew a kid that comes to our FLGS every monday to play games. He started almost two years ago with a tyranid battleforce, and played games like that. He wasn't particularly rich and as fourteen year olds go he was polite and witty. We watched him play from 500, to 1000, proxying units along the way. One day someone asks if he wants to play 2000, and he says he doesn't have enough points to play that high. Instead of docking the game down that he obviously wants to play, the opponent agrees to let him use bases and trace 25mm circles on cardboard to cut out and use as more termagants.

It really wasn't a big deal - he was serious about the hobby and spent money whenever he could afford to - now he has over 2.5k of Tyranids and plays incredibly. Stomps me, that's for sure. I think healthy proxying can encourage someone to collect more and stick with it.

Units that don't have models can be represented quite easily by any other similarly-sized model in the game or otherwise. Not sure how big to make a mycetic spore? Use an empty can of drink; no one at my store is going to look twice.

Sorry for the rant. TL;DR: Let someone do it in a friendly situation. It's a game, right? To have fun with.

I agree with most people here though that in a tournament it is unsavoury at least to be proxying models. If you want to play for money or prizes, put the same amount of work or finance into your own army.

gannam wrote:I mean, technically you are supposed to model melta bombs but who does that?

Even frag and krak.

Im ok with a proxy.
But only if I cant get a good conversion.

Proxies are fine with me, as long as they are planning on converting or buying the model. If they are just doing it out of laziness, then no. The main Tyranid player at my FLGS had been using old air fresheners for drop pods for a while, but was working on a conversion. The next time I saw him, he had converted the air fresheners into drop pods with greenstuff and Tyranid bits. They actually looked very good, especially for having previously been air fresheners.

Proxies are fine. I've happily played games where the entire opposing tyranid army was composed of humanoid D&D minis.

Only if GW doesn't make it.

Otherwise never.

I have no problem with proxying for playtesting. In fact, I think it's a very reasonable practice. That said, there are limits to how much I can remember. Want to test a drop army? Sure, those bottles are pods for the next few games. If you've got 600 points of empty bases, erasers, etc. then I have a problem, because I can't keep track of what everything is supposed to represent.

If half of your 2K point army is proxied, unless I'm playing you specifically to help you test the list, we're either playing the 1K you have modeled or we're not playing at all.

Proxying a unit or two to playtest a new list? Fine. Proxying a special character or vehicle while your conversion is WIP? Also fine. Proxying half an army with assorted unlike items? Uh... no.

Friendly games, when clearly defined, and only for a few units. I strongly support proxying for when you want to playtest a unit/army, as long as a friend/opponent is okay with it.

Proxy must be clear. I.e. these bottle caps are sternguard but these over here are tac marines is a big no-no. These bottle caps are tac marines and this pop can is a drop pod is completely okay with me.

I really don't have a problem with it. In tournaments, I would accept it as long as it is the model that you want. For example, a Terminator with a SB/PF is being used as a terminator with an assault cannon, as long as there is some way to tell the difference.

I'm fine with proxies as a short term thing when you just ant to try something out... We recently ran a game here that included, amongst other things, a Necron army with a Star Wars Probe Droid as a Wraith and the dreaded Monolith-E:

If it's an appropriate model (GW or otherwise) has the appropriate weapons and/or wargear, and is of the same rough size, I have no problem with it.

The current generation's mindset of "non-GW models=thoughtcrime" does not matter to me - I try not to play anyone under half my age (which generally means you need to be able to legally purchase alcohol in a licenced premises) so I'm usually not subjected to that kind of one-eyed fanboi-ism (and my club is based in a local sports supporters' club, so we get enough one-eyed fanboi-ism downstairs from the "football" fans).

Size and theme inappropriate conversions/proxies and counts-as are a no go. By this I mean, proxying your entire army as NOTHING BUT EMPTY BASES, using "Hello kitty" for anything apart from firelighters. Mighty morphine power rangers connect-a-bot as a Warlord titan (give it back to the nephew for his toybox).*



*LEGO proxies, however, are ALWAYS acceptable. LEGO is made of pure awesome. Always will be. EVEN the GW studio has used their parts to make their conversions over the years.

I voted no, the ony exception would be play testing new models to see if you like them before having to shell out to get the actual models. Otherwise you spend more time figuring out what's what than playing.

Sanctjud wrote:
Either way, the intention of the person in question is really the defining point of whether or not proxying is helpful or harmful.

/thread.

Thats the bottom line right there. If you are doing it to test a new unit or to fill in while you buy/build the real thing fine. If you are just being lazy or cheap then GTFO.

Tourney play is a big NO in any case.

As far as something only available from Forgeworld...if you cant afford it then a modified/scratchbuilt version is fine, but a real permanent model. Simply setting a field gun on top of a vehicle without actually attaching it and trying to build a model is no good. Excusable short term only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chromedog wrote:If it's an appropriate model (GW or otherwise) has the appropriate weapons and/or wargear, and is of the same rough size, I have no problem with it.

*LEGO proxies, however, are ALWAYS acceptable. LEGO is made of pure awesome. Always will be. EVEN the GW studio has used their parts to make their conversions over the years.

Ill agree. I actually prefer to see nice scratchbuilds of things instead of stuff like Forgeworld.

Forgeworld titan...ok cool, you had a spare $1000.

Scratchbuilt titan, done well...pure awesome.

I allow anyone I'm up against to proxy. However, I try my best to force myself not to do so, lest I forget what I was using.