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@Vlad, why do shooty armies usually have low initiative?


It might be because the shooting phase occurs before HtH.


Yeah I'll be happy to deepstrike those stormies in on your rear armour with 2 meltas.



As to multi-use. HHMMM who wins between storms and banshees if the storms deepstrike and shoot first?

Same goes for the striking scorpions.

Storms vs Crisis suits?

The math on this is very close. And thats before the possibility of the extra rapid fire shot. So yeah the only time you use them is against marines because other armies don't have Equivalents.



As to your question. Learn to read and you will have your answer.

Do I own a guard army, No.
Does this mean I don't play guard? No
Do have have an extensive gaming group with which we borrow one anothers armies? Yes
Have I kicked but with guard?Yes
Have I lost with guard?Yes

Does any of this affect someones ability to understand the tactical value of certain squads if they are already familiar with the game system?NO

Looks like orders have replaced leadership bubbles. A lot more running is gonna happen.

To be fair, squads have ld8 sgts now across the board. So I guess the main thing lost is the ld9 bubble of the HQ officer. I guess he won't be nearly as high in target priority anymore

I dunno how bad a change this is really gonna be. Seems to me instead of relying on command to keep squads in the game, you now rely on sgts (as it should be, having served irl), while the command gives some cool boosts to a squad or two. I kinda like that more but I am not a long time IG player, just one waiting to see the new dex before jumping into it.

winterman wrote:I dunno how bad a change this is really gonna be. Seems to me instead of relying on command to keep squads in the game, you now rely on sgts (as it should be, having served irl), while the command gives some cool boosts to a squad or two. I kinda like that more but I am not a long time IG player, just one waiting to see the new dex before jumping into it.

If the CHQ standard has the same effect (reroll leadership w/in 12"), it's a relatively minor change - squads operating off the Lt's leadership were testing at 8 anyway. It'll hurt things like Ogryn & (potentially) conscripts much more than line squads.

I've drawn criticism for having rose colored glasses where this codex is concerned despite the fact that I've openly stated that some units just seen not suited for regular 40K and seem more like Apoc units and that RR seem to be dead in this 'Dex.

Heck, I'm not holding any hope for the RR right now, unless something changes drastically.

A third of the tanks come across as Apoc oriented. And poeple are gonna have to figure out which is which, not that much of a problem.

Penal legions seem to be to much of a gamble unless your just looking to meat shield them. Not much of a shield, though.

Voxes are damn near mandatory, but then they sort of were before also.

It seems officer leadership is being replaced by having to buy commisars for the squads.

You will probably have to spam a theme for the army to maximize tournament effectiveness.

The biggest down side though is that most of the units only do stuff at an ok level. Its like the old saying Jack of all trades and master of none. The only exception is that no army can match the amount of ordinance that the IG can dish out. To this flaw I can only say welcome to the guard.
Pretty much been its theme all along. Average.

There are some downsides, Just as in every codex release.And then there are up sides.
IMHO, These are the upsides to me.

The biggest change to the Guard is the availability of speed. The potential of several squadrons of fast moving heavily armed transport skimmers is nice.
Back that up with ground tanks that can keep up to provide fire support.
I can't stress to much how useful all of that speed can be

Next is diversity of builds now available.
Hard hitting fast strike
Steady advancing Armorwall
The good ol' massed infantry
Artillery Barrage of doom
Mixes of what I've stated so far

Then comes a much more interesting command structure that seems to have the ability to really boost the effectiveness of the basic guardsman.

I'm reserving thoughts on the other stuff until the new codex is out. All I've been trying to say is that to me there are an increased range of options for the IG.

From LD9 to LD8 is about 15% more failures, and heavy weapons squads seem to still be LD7, so after 2 wounds they have a 42% chance of running. Its hard to keep most of an army within 12" of one squad, especially when you are trying to not get multicharged. Im really hoping we can take 2 HQs.

Sniper rifles can be taken as special weapons for 5 points. It is supposedly possible to arm an entire special weapons squad with them and the result costs the same as ratlings.

That points to a six-man special weapon squad either costing 30 points and upgrading to special weapons at the same rate as the infantry or costing 60 points with a 5 point discount on special weapons. The first is a much better deal than the current special weapons squad, so I don't think that's what we'll get. The second is better than the current special weapons squad if you want three or more special weapons. It's basically the same as the first except you can't save points by leaving models unupgraded.

New Guard do indeed have the leadership bubbles still availiable.

Its a special rule called "allied sisters with books".

I'm in favor of the new codex and 5e WH40K rules.

In 4e, the biggest threats to my army were fast assault armies (Ork speed freaks or SM assault marines with a jump pack equipped chaplain) and Tau armies with a lot of hammerheads with disruption pods and stealth teams. 5e made all of these threats weaker by allowing outflank and disallowing continual consolidation into new units during the assault phase.

The new IG codex also appears to make my biggest threat armies even less dangerous since I get more IG infantry, access to some long range AT weapons, and orders which appear to increase the lethality of common infantry and heavy weapons teams. I'm inclined to increase the numbers of rank and file squads with special weapons, voxes, and heavy weapons.

The downsides for me are the vulnerability of heavy weapons squads (I may drop a few of these in favor of normal squads) and the IG's weakness in Annihilation scenarios. I'm looking forward to getting in some games with the new codex and trying out several lists in Annihilation.

During the 45 or so pages of debate on the new codex, no one has really discussed whether the new codex works best with small lists (<=1000 points, medium lists 1001-1500 points, or large lists 1501-2000. I have seen several posts that the codex offers much of interest in APOC size games (2001+). For me, the new codex offers more advantages in the 1501-2000 point range since the savings advantage per Sentinel, Chimera, and regular squad is maximized. I don't save enough points in my smaller lists to really add anything significant (i.e. game-breaking) at lower army list point values.

The biggest boon IG will get in regards to smaller point games is (hopefully) the fact that they will not be required to purchase infantry platoons.

2 squads of vets and a CHQ will run you 210pts. That is a heck of a lot cheaper than we currently have (aside from two 5man grenadier squads).

Throw those squads in chimeras, add some guns and perhaps even some sentinels, and you have a fun little recon army for a 500 pt skirmish.

How would you kit out your Chimeras?

I'm already stuck with four that have turret ML and hull HF but I'm thinking about adding four more that have turret HB and hull HB. All of them would have pintle HS since it's a nice defensive weapon and also helps to extend the life of the vehicle vs. those pesky weapon destroyed results.

The rumors indicate that track guards are too pricey for me since I tend not to carry squads inside the Chimeras anyway. The new 5e run rules and rumored "Move, move, move" order makes it even less likely that I'll put any passengers inside the tracked vehicles so I see no reason to pay 15 points for track guards. I might jump a squad near the end of the game into a nearby Chimera to capture an objective.

A Chimera with turret HB, hull HB, and pintle HS looks like a better option than a heavy weapon squad with HBs. I guess it would depend on the enemy you face.

As non-sequiturs, the Master of Ordnance is looking like a "must-have" for the IG. Also the poor elite choices combined with more vehicles in my list makes me want to put my enginseer and his tech servitors back in my list. I may even put them in a pimped out red Chimera worthy of a techpriest.

Deadshane1 wrote:New Guard do indeed have the leadership bubbles still availiable.

Its a special rule called "allied sisters with books".

Right, until GW gets around to making the SoB codex and that rule stops existing. It kinda sucks that the only way to get good leadership now is to take allies to fix the problem. I already take allies with a book but now I am forced to do that or have all my units run away from the slightest shooting (particularly HW squads).

JB:

Personally, I love Multilasers and would never take a turret HB over a turret Multilaser. ML is such a great weapon, able to threaten all infantry and light vehicles (ML kills MEQ in cover just as well as a Lascannon kills them out of cover).

I think 65pts for a ML/HB/HS is a very solid investment (considering a HB HW squad runs 75pts).

BoxANT,

I'll try the turret MLs first before I try the turret HBs. It's easier since the kit comes with MLs anyway. I do think I will add more Chimeras. I may even try nine of them in my list (4 per infantry platoon (x2) plus one for my enginseer and his tech servitors).

I'm still working out my HW squads but do not plan on using HBs in them. Maybe I'll still run a LC, ML, or AC squad. I'm still considering vehicle options that would make more effective choices than these squads. The Vendetta may be better than a LC or ML squad.

I too like the multilaser. It wounds more often and Ap often doesn't matter anyway. I'm torn on the hull weapon, but starting to lean to the heavy bolter.

focusedfire wrote:
Voxes are damn near mandatory, but then they sort of were before also.

Wow...this statement is so far off reality it taints all your other guard analysis.

Gestalt wrote:From LD9 to LD8 is about 15% more failures, and heavy weapons squads seem to still be LD7, so after 2 wounds they have a 42% chance of running. Its hard to keep most of an army within 12" of one squad, especially when you are trying to not get multicharged. Im really hoping we can take 2 HQs.

I'm thinking this might make it more common to put HW squads in Chimeras. They don't appear to become open-topped when the troops shot from them, can have up to 5 weapons fire out, and the troops inside can't rout.

ph34r wrote:Right, until GW gets around to making the SoB codex and that rule stops existing. It kinda sucks that the only way to get good leadership now is to take allies to fix the problem. I already take allies with a book but now I am forced to do that or have all my units run away from the slightest shooting (particularly HW squads).

Frankly, I dont expect them to redo SoB for a long while, so we might as well make good use of the book while we're at it.

The rough rider thing appears to be a false alarm. We're getting more reports that the lance is still a power weapon.

Those of you who ran non-lance riders appear to still be out of luck, though.

Grimaldi wrote:I'm thinking this might make it more common to put HW squads in Chimeras. They don't appear to become open-topped when the troops shot from them, can have up to 5 weapons fire out, and the troops inside can't rout.

That would be nice, but Im guessing that 5 fire points has something to do with the hull lasguns, and that we will only be firing 1-2 heavy weapons out the hatch. I'd like confirmation on how firing out of a chimera works, since the rules before were inconsistent with the lasguns.

Edit: Is the tank ace +1 to armor pen or +1 to damage table?

Gestalt wrote:From LD9 to LD8 is about 15% more failures, and heavy weapons squads seem to still be LD7, so after 2 wounds they have a 42% chance of running. Its hard to keep most of an army within 12" of one squad, especially when you are trying to not get multicharged. Im really hoping we can take 2 HQs.

Grimaldi wrote:I'm thinking this might make it more common to put HW squads in Chimeras. They don't appear to become open-topped when the troops shot from them, can have up to 5 weapons fire out, and the troops inside can't rout.

Did something dramatically change with Chimeras in regards to passengers shooting? My understanding (which may change in the new codex) is that six passengers can fire lasguns (not sure if that is limited to three per side but that's the way I play it) and one model may fire a weapon from the top rear hatch but then the vehicle is considered open-topped. So a HW squad would only fire one of their heavy weapons. Personally, I wouldn't use a passenger heavy weapon because of the open-topped limitation coupled with LOS difficulty caused by the Chimera's turret. I don't want to turn my side armor and go open-topped just to use one passenger AC, HB, LC, or ML. If something has changed in the new codex, that might change my mind.

JB wrote:Did something dramatically change with Chimeras in regards to passengers shooting? My understanding (which may change in the new codex) is that six passengers can fire lasguns (not sure if that is limited to three per side but that's the way I play it) and one model may fire a weapon from the top rear hatch but then the vehicle is considered open-topped. So a HW squad would only fire one of their heavy weapons. Personally, I wouldn't use a passenger heavy weapon because of the open-topped limitation coupled with LOS difficulty caused by the Chimera's turret. I don't want to turn my side armor and go open-topped just to use one passenger AC, HB, LC, or ML. If something has changed in the new codex, that might change my mind.

The new Codex due out in May apparently has 5 Fire Points instead of the old 6 Lasgun/Top Hatch rules. As the "counting as open-topped" is linked to the Top Hatch rules and not the Fire Point rules from the BGB, and rumours/those who have seen the new book indicate there is no similar rule anymore, then you won't run into that problem anymore.

Platuan4th wrote:The new Codex due out in May apparently has 5 Fire Points instead of the old 6 Lasgun/Top Hatch rules. As the "counting as open-topped" is linked to the Top Hatch rules and not the Fire Point rules from the BGB, and rumours/those who have seen the new book indicate there is no similar rule anymore, then you won't run into that problem anymore.

Thanks Platuan. I'm skeptical that they will allow three heavy weapons to fire from a Chimera, but even if they do, we will likely have to give a side armor facing in order to take those heavy weapon shots since LOS is taken from the Fire Points. We also cannot move the Chimera during that movement phase.

I'm waiting to celebrate on that to see if there are restrictions on those fire points. Chimera with 3 lascannons? Drive-by with 4x Flamer or 4x Plasma command squads?

Gestalt wrote:I'm waiting to celebrate on that to see if there are restrictions on those fire points. Chimera with 3 lascannons? Drive-by with 4x Flamer or 4x Plasma command squads?

Damn Gestalt. Your idea about drive-by special weapons spam may be fething brilliant. Now you've got me wondering... Too bad that it's only a 6" drive. On the plus side, it's a Tank Shock as well. I don't know that I would risk a command squad though...maybe a SWS or a veteran squad. On the other hand, the platoon command squad is pretty cheap but losing it would likely break up my vox network, which per the rumors might hurt me, and would end any orders from that JO.

The rumor about the Chimera and 5 firepoints seems solid, really hope it is true.

I had not considered putting HW squads in Chimeras, that would be interesting.

A 65pt Chimera + a 75 3AC squad could kick out a hideous amount of firepower, and if screened by some AV14, would be hard to take out without serious anti tank.

FAQ: How is the psyker squad's power handled when the unit is in a Chimera?

Well since they are only making 1 attack (not 1 per each member), I would assume that they could fire out of a chimera at full effect.

Raxmei wrote:FAQ: How is the psyker squad's power handled when the unit is in a Chimera?

According to the BGB [p.66], passengers can use a psychic power via a Fire Point on a transport. If range and LOS matter though, they are measured from the Fire Point.

From what I've read in the rumors here and on BoLS, one of the psykers uses the power and the others amplify its effect.

It looks like I might have to ammend some of what I said earlier.

Recent rumors suggest that the RR still have the same lance with no change. If this ia true and the rumors about the special character is true, then they could be useful. Will have to wait for more info.

Penal units are looking to be whole platoons20-50 strong that are looking to have some interesting abilities.
I still don't like the having to roll for those abilities just before deployment but if it is done squad to squad then you could "sort of" plan for them in your strategy. With my luck I'm not sure if I'd use them, but I can definitely see A good use for them if your the gambling type.


@Grimaldi, What? You've never played an IG infantry hoarde army? Huh, go figure.


To every single person that has criticized me about my stance on stormtrooper.
The people that say that there is no way an elite S3 T3 model could be worth 16 pts.
Then has argued that point using units like Striking scorps, Banshees, and Harlequins.......Those are all S3 T3 models. You just argued and proved my point.


If the latest rumors on the IG Codex thread is true. Then the IG by gaining battlepskers, fast skimmers, and commanders with farseer abilites to allow you to re-roll wounds and twin-link weapons has picked up a strong flavor from another army.

People are gonna call this the IE codex for Imperial Eldar

focusedfire wrote:Then has argued that point using units like Striking scorps, Banshees, and Harlequins.......Those are all S3 T3 models. You just argued and proved my point.

You are missing the point entirely. It's not just that they are S3 T3. They also have not good armor and are terrible in close combat. Scorpions, banshees, and harlqeuins have things like str 4, sheet, 3+ armor, special rules, high initiative, etc. They are legitimate units that can beat other units in their designed area. Storm troopers just aren't that good at shooting and don't have the survivability or range to even do it for long, attributes that don't help justify the greater than space marine cost (space marines pay for free flamers and MLs base)

I think Stormtrooper will still have their use. I think it just comes down to the fact that we'll all need new tactics to use them because of how different they are now. They've gone from just being better guardsmen to being a unit with directed disruptive ability. Their usefulness is also amplified by our diminished ability to take droptrooper deepstrike ability. Any armylist that wants or needs some component of its force to disrupt enemy lines via deepstrike will have to take Stromtroopers. With the thematic focus of the codex shifted certain abilities are at a premium.